It is after dinner. Nobody but myself at home. Tired to do the work I vaguely wanted to do for the evening but feel devoid of the energy to do so. I could become aware of this bodily state of mine, and I did. I stare at the lamp and the mug besides it, trying to just become aware of it. Before that I sit here not visually focusing on anything but feeling this bodily and energetic state of mine. The awareness of myself doing this grew and I start to become aware of the thoughts that rise as inner chattering, in dialogue with the stimuli that caused my mind to move in the first place. Whenever I try to become aware of something and stay with it, I become aware of distractions. Whenever I question, to put a skeptical outlook on what is going on, a quick suspense happens but followed by a tiredness, some sort of want to escape somewhere ELSE...

I even went to website to search for K's text on "escape" but too many reasons overwhelmed me that this simple inquiry will carry me too far off, not at the exact moment when I need the exact answer, as I would if I were talking to someone face-to-face. I don't know if there's a pattern in this tiredness and the escape. Staying in the present. but if the present is a consequent, i.e. that you are in it, then you are able to speak of it, then how do you become of it? how can you, when feeling not being present, become present? And especially when it is with just yourself?

It seems that even if I push out all authorities by my unwillingness to cooperate with distraction - my very skepticism that arise as soon as anything happens - I would still not find a route out of the very feeling of the undesirableness of what I am doing. I am discontent? Is this it? But how is discontent to become contentedness without anything?

Is my tiredness, discontent, skeptical-awareness, feeling of being trapped, a constellation of effects?

Or is it just EXPLAINED by something, like the after-dinner food-coma?

But moved on to the next happening, I want it or not, time carries life to the next happening. One after another with occasions to... don't know...something...

is this laziness for concluding or skepticism that folds into another, another, another...endlessness...and not even endlessness as a word for conclusion...simply no ending...

Welcome to forum, dear friend.

Isn't all effort to understand/analyse anything intellectually a tiring process and waste of energy every time and always?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

I did actually went to watch a video of K, by searching the keyword "fear". After watching the video, I'm now inclined to say the pattern above has to do with fear. I had the intuition that this analysis of mine above has to do with escape. But I did not get to finish it last night. I was too tired. Restlessness and tiredness happening together is not a desirable state of mind. Will update when I get to watch the whole thing tonight.

Here some more monologues.Not related to above.Not a discussion.

Without a very very strong hunger, very very strong thirst, no one can go beyond.Nothing can help, k or any.

So basic thing is hunger.How to be hungry?It just happens. No one can teach this.

Hunger arise from deep sorrow.A deep sorrow of human being.A sense of totally nonsense, meaningless life.Not a superficial sorrow of physical, economical or emotional loss.

A sorrow which continue in your all pleasure, your all achievements, it say these things are so trivial.

Few days ago I watched a video of K,Video of old K.It was of 82.K was trying to discuss together.But it was again monologue.From more than fifty years, it was still monologue.Some one, who was attending his discussions from years, said to K that it is again monologue.K was agree.So a real dialogue never happened.Why? Because no one was hungry.

How to be hungry? I don't know.I don't think that anything which is in your limit can make you hungry.So what can we do?

As K said if there is a single person to hear him, to discuss with him, he will carry on talking about these things, even no one listened him yet.

We have a light hunger.We don't know if ever it will turn into a strong real hunger.So should I give up?If I am satisfied and attracted with general way of living, I may give up.But If I feel that this kind of living has no sense.Then?

I don't know

This post was last updated by dhirendra singh Wed, 23 Mar 2011.

Dhirendra,

For me, it is not so much hunger or sorrow as it is a sense of futility with no escape. The sense that everything is quite useless. The sense that everything is so irrelevant and beside the point.

max

despair?

Despair requires someone, some entity, to feel the sense of despair. If there is some reaction other than despair, then that reaction, also, implies one who senses. In this sensing there is suffering.

The question is, why react at all? Need there be a reaction, or can one simply look? Let the futility stands by itself and the uselessness and irrelevancy stand by themselves, to be observed.

max

now i sort of see what you are saying...the whole challenge that you are suggesting is if we can just simply be aware or observe what is happening to me. But there's also something catching me in D's post above on that hunger...we need that hunger - some wanting solution out of not being able to be present, if we don't even think there's a solution...at least for thoughts to hold onto....

humm...yeah, then what would happen? ...

to me what happens sometime is like that experience of fading away with time as I monologue above. basically, the next ting comes, the next day, the next happening...time will push me regardless i want it or not...this time, this inevitable forgetting and gaps in experience, conditions me, and perhaps even provide a lurking rationalization of accepting the misery that sometimes pop up (I cannot have it come up all the time, I'm not quite there as speaker D above who also calls for the readiness to be hungry-for).

but yeah, if i stay long enough with the misery EVERY-TIME it happens, will i start to feel change? how to do that? is that a feeling of fading? and is the power to stay there lies in the belief/confidence-in the futility of every effort to escape/go-away from what is happening (the misery)? i want to know more about how people actually do "stay" in that way...what happens to the mind step by step when one's doing that?

Hang,

You wrote, " . . . if i stay long enough with the misery EVERY-TIME it happens, will i start to feel change?"

I would say that you will never feel change if you stay with the misery. Why? Because if you say that you are staying with misery, you are simply . . . staying with it.

It seems rather that one has to totally abandon misery. Perhaps this can be accomplished by realizing that one feels this misery - - all suffering - - through the psychological construction called the Self. The Self is merely a psychological fabrication, and in a very real sense it is imaginary.

The physical body does not feel misery. It does not suffer. The physical body feels physical hurt and pain, whereas suffering is felt ONLY through the imaginary Self. Since the Self is imaginary, why do we put up with suffering?

max

hang chang wrote:
.what happens to the mind step by step when one's doing that?

Intelligence shines forth with a high light. He over powers the forces of magic.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Max,

So the trick is to accept that this (something undesirable being noticed, call it misery or something like that) is happening, and not just "me" accepting it, but that everyone suffer (at their pace and timing)?

Additionally, you seem to be suggesting that suffering is something more fundamental like a fundamental aspect of existence?

Monologue continues.

I am living a life which has no sense.Working for money, eating, sex, chat, taking care of kids.

Thirty nine years had been spent in a shallow living.And definitely remaining years will pass in same way.Lived without any meaning and died.Am I happy with this life?Years ago I was not happy.I felt discontentment.But now I am blunt.I am in anaesthesia.I am engaged in family and job.

If I am serious, if I see the all the nonsense of life, then how can I live such life?A serious person can't wait, He will put his all energy to penetrate into thyself, to find out.

I have no interest in gradual enquiry, in half hearted attempts. I hate it. Unfortunately I see lameness of such inquiry.It is for self amusement and for making fool to oneself.It is not better than entertainment.This forum is also a place of such entertainment.

So definitely I am one more fool who is just wasting life in nonsense.

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
So definitely I am one more fool who is just wasting life in nonsense.

I saw him moving far away from his field, and his herd no longer shining brightly. Let those who have seized him set him free.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

dhirendra singh wrote:
I am engaged in family and job.

This is your story Dhirendra. Bones can be broken. Life - what you are beyond your story- cannot.

"Let your heart break into a million pieces today. Allow yourself to cry today. Be vulnerable today. Feel gratitude today for the smallest and most 'insignificant' things. A taste. A glance. A breath. On this day of all days - your first day, and your last day."

Yvonne Bokobza wrote:
"Let your heart break into a million pieces today. Allow yourself to cry today. Be vulnerable today. Feel gratitude today for the smallest and most 'insignificant' things. A taste. A glance. A breath. On this day of all days - your first day, and your last day."

What a rhythmic expressions! Thanks Yvonne.

I don't know

Presently what we call life or a person, is just an advertisement.I am simply an advertisement.I generally care about this advertised image.I am not concerned to fact, reality.I am interested in polishing, protecting and maintaining this advertisement which I think I am.

Surprisingly we spent whole life span in maintaining an image.I attach country, religion, philosophy,profession, persons with me and then I fight for them.Then, on the name of these things, I only fights for me.

It happens so spontaneously that it look natural.My country won, I am happy, my daughter ranked first in her class, I am happy.All appear very good and natural.

Being happy for an advertised image is so natural.

I don't know

This post was last updated by dhirendra singh Sun, 27 Mar 2011.

Nothing is personal.It is a fact.I can't own, but I can try to own.I do it, till the end.

I can't own.It's a fact.Nothing can be owned, impossible.So, should I continue to trying to own, beside this fact?

For a day, can I stop this foolishness, the continuous efforts of ownership?

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
Nothing is personal.It is a fact.I can't own, but I can try to own.I do it, till the end.
I can't own.It's a fact.Nothing can be owned, impossible.So, should I continue to trying to own, beside this fact?
For a day, can I stop this foolishness, the continuous efforts of ownership?

Dhirendra, i like the all post, beyond words it says something, foolishness of the ownership....all divided , including from what can be called "me"....

we divide "what is" which is one and unified into two parts , then one is rejected(so we believe but is impossible psychologically),the one left is again divided in two and so on, a never ending process ,entirely mechanical, a foolish one when it is used all the time for any aspects of life , when it only should be used in some of our survival vital activities basically and only...
take the bird, he built a nest and find food....

then it comes back to the observer which is the observed , the words sound nice , but what lies behind those words needs some kind of deep insight to be seen so deeply understood.
what is and what should be is the same as observer is the observed..
it is all about division ....

I see the impossibility for my dividing part of the brain to do anything else.
I agree with Patricia here, self won't change.

Well , nothing more to say...just a few morning(for me ) words..

take care.

Dan.

discontentment shows the wrong way , as surely as the fire in Mount Doom destroyed the master ring !

This post was last updated by paul mohaddhib (account deleted) Fri, 01 Apr 2011.

paul mohaddhib wrote:
I see the impossibility for my dividing part of the brain to do anything else. I agree with Patricia here, self won't change.

Hi Daniel

Thank you for your comment

This is important, seeing the incapability of self to change.It is a turning point.

Self is division.It is 'what is', the division.Is division poison? Or it is a health tonic.As K said, most people are happy with it, so they don't feel need of any change.It's fine.

Do any feel that division is poison?

Nothing else is required.

Be well.

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
This is important, seeing the incapability of self to change.It is a turning point.

hello dhirendra...

a turning point , yes one of them.
it needs to be more than words ,but to start somewhere and somehow is necessary of course so we all go the same way.
All my brain is machine like,set up ,with fixed programs. For me i see and feel it deeply.I say , i experienced that..deep knowledge.

Can i start by the conclusion i am a machine ?

Again i search out of one reason ,always the same , i want something...
i want to reach..
what has created this "want "?
what quality has this "want "?
The moment i "want" , the goal is already set up , the plan is there....
i want to be rich is my plan ( so i may think !) ,then whatever happens in between not rich yet and rich is of no importance.
and you say this :

dhirendra singh wrote:
Self is division.It is 'what is', the division.Is division poison? Or it is a health tonic.As K said, most people are happy with it, so they don't feel need of any change.It's fine.

then it seems it is all over when people are happy with it!
apart from me occasionally :-)...i very rarely met adult "happy" so in peace people, i met many people putting their happy face , a way not to be entirely defeated by this "no life ", caught in struggling ,walking on the razor edge and knowing it, this is where possession ,money ,profit fits into the picture...as a need to try resisting the pain by attempting to run away. what is /what should be.

if i leave the probably hidden idea to change the world according to my own feelings, then i go along with my life , the inner journey if it means something .

The focus point , for someone who has some facts about himself remains this bothering discontentment ( from frustration to heavy sorrow giving idea of ultimate escape )...
which seems to be so impossible to stay with..

then you say :

dhirendra singh wrote:
Do any feel that division is poison?
Nothing else is required.

well my friend i totally do agree with you here , it is just very recent in my own "journey", that i really feel/see deeply the division like touching it , like a huge problem ,like a source of pain , not meaning that going this way i will be in my own heaven , just meaning the capacity to take life as it comes, and not live the life as i want, here is the free will , to play by my will or Mother Nature Goodness , in mother nature goodness nothing has value...and it seems to be a major fact to discover. It needs to be a discovery beyond words..
and nothing else is required you say is right for me so far as i am concern with it.
in normal life anything going on is immediately taken by this analyzing brain and cut in two pieces,or into pieces, then again the one i want to keep is again cut in two pieces and so on.

we end up to be concerned with a solution and leave the problem.
Well it is more complicated, but i find a global ish view is great , for myself i don't see the need to push , whatever happens , relief from will so suffering is already in goodness...a little miracle...
Back to what is and what should be...

Living only according this machine brain choices( computer ), only concerned with its activities arisen from its set up programs , and even worse is just functioning absolutely randomly i think..like these stupid modern little cars which goes in any direction randomly as long as there are some batteries..

It seems then , that was my feeling from very young( as for many people ) ,that the ALL structure of societies is wrong , wrong as it always contains the poison you mention..So many people feel that,without putting a finger on what is exactly wrong of course....well up to anyone to go into it ,isn't ?
technics in a sane world have their own place , well when i feel at peace , the nature brings already so much , and there is "something " beyond...the eyes...
So it is not possible yet to have any idea of a good world...as the concern is to understand the insane one...

take care of you .

Dan

discontentment shows the wrong way , as surely as the fire in Mount Doom destroyed the master ring !

And, at the end of the day i see two ways of living only.
One we perfectly know and needs no comment right here.

what would be the other one ?

there is nature, wind, rain, animals,plants need for food,shelter , sun ,eruptions , thunder , people , children and everything which is , i choose to live from that which is, there are things and people .
i look at all that and as i suffer in a normal way of life, i leave it , it is rejected with violence , a right violence .It is in fact reversing the violence.

Then as a real proposition, I live on one side of the river , am i going to built a bridge to go on the other side, (out of curiosity maybe..is curiosity born out of boredom?) ) or am i going to take a journey by walking along back to a point where i could cross or say well that is the way it is...or i may just stay around my usual place , caught in the beauty of the nature , having a full life in peace?

Our actual way of life says : we need a bridge, now myself i say : leave it the way it is , then i live according to what is...i don't need a bridge , and i accept to leave by what is ,i take things as they are , "what is " decides instead of "me", as me is dealing with practical surviving only and this can be only when i have got the point : suffering = my cravings...( meaning a great deal of understanding of all that which won't come in one night)
when our actual lives are only and entirely concerned with the bridge...
so we see a bridge , nothing else basically....the bigger the better ,more bridges ...

the deep knowledge of pain = me and my will born out of what should be , is going to make me rejecting normal life, as a poison as you say dhirendra, sanity is born...out of insanity which is basically war for profit..

The successful man hates when this is point out,that business = war....not that he is not aware of it, but he is just frightened that people start understanding it deeply, then the insane world is finished....

i very strongly feel it..

we must awakened.....

Dan....

discontentment shows the wrong way , as surely as the fire in Mount Doom destroyed the master ring !

paul mohaddhib wrote:
the deep knowledge of pain = me and my will born out of what should be , is going to make me rejecting normal life, as a poison as you say dhirendra, sanity is born...out of insanity which is basically war for profit..

The successful man hates when this is point out,that business = war....not that he is not aware of it, but he is just frightened that people start understanding it deeply, then the insane world is finished....

Hello Daniel

Thank you for your posts.They are good pointer.

Take care.

I don't know

I asked myself, what basically I want?Is it money,power or fame? It is not.I want love, to be loved.I am little surprised by this revelation.I can't want enlightenment, because I don't know what it is.

So in deeper level of mind I am burning in desire of to be loved, to have affection.I am affectionate.It is a psychological desire.

Can I get affection ever? Never.

I don't know