Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: Sir, awarenness is either lighting up the perception of environment or is observing the thought process.When the mind is functioning in this manner, then conditioning can not take roots.Neither the past conditionings can influence your responses.The conditioning will be operating and taking new roots if awareness is not present right in the beginning of any action.Is there anyother way to avoid getting conditioned ?

Therese commented on the first part so I will take this part on.

I have no clue how I can stay aware although I agree with your first sentence. Conditioning, however, can have its own roots already. Yes if I am totally free, conditioning cannot take root when I am aware but if I am conditioned and in an aware state at the moment, it appears to me that the conditioned part of the mind is stronger than awareness. The mind takes off in the conditioned state as it appears the input is dangerous or pleasurable and I must respond. I, personally, have not reached any state to fight off conditioning. However, I think in a selfless state, one can tell that even in a conditioned state of action that there is something wrong. The self always lives in the mistake that all of it is real. Without the self, there is some semblance of hope. Hope dissipates, though, as the world around you seems to be collapsing. I still think that freedom from conditioning is the goal of the individual man. It certainly is mine.

Now, I totally missed your response 266 to my 263. I love this, we finally can get things answered. I will do this tomorrow.

Therese Okamoto wrote: this is a description of classic conditioning, instead of moving in a direction of unlearning you have a system for not learning at all?

If there is a direction to 'unlearning', is it unlearning ? Can one uncondition when motive is present? Direction means conditioning is taking roots.

What I am trying to say is something different.When I am aware of my reactions, the unconditioning factor is the 'MOVEMENT' of awareness.The contents are conditioned but there is no way to condition this MOVEMENT.-Regards.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

phil K wrote: I have no clue how I can stay aware although I agree with your first sentence. Conditioning, however, can have its own roots already. Yes if I am totally free, conditioning cannot take root when I am aware but if I am conditioned and in an aware state at the moment, it appears to me that the conditioned part of the mind is stronger than awareness.

Phil Sir,to cross a busy road, I have to become attentive.As soon as I have crossed the road, I see a person whom I dislike and react negatively.If my attention can catch the origin and ending of each thought(reaction), then conditioning has no grip on my subsequent action and behavior.The important point here is to be attentive(a movement) till the reaction is over.This state is reached when one can observe the environment with clarity.

phil K wrote: Without the self, there is some semblance of hope. Hope dissipates, though, as the world around you seems to be collapsing.

Sir, the state of 'without the self' is to be attained in one's mind.Your next sentence, at the level of thought,is a conditioned reaction,is it not ? People have always been saying that their world is going to dogs.It has survived so far, it is likely to do so in future too.I always remember that whatever happens, happens inside you.If and when one is free of the self,his perception of the world is certain to change positively.

phil K wrote: The self always lives in the mistake that all of it is real.

Sir,when one is aware of the state of being, then al the activities of the self are clearly seen to be taking place at the level of thought.This becomes very clearonceand for all, that words are not the thing.Then all the activities of the self can continue, but they are not influencing the action.Action now is taking place from 'seeing' and is not ideation.

phil K wrote: I still think that freedom from conditioning is the goal of the individual man.

Sir,freedom from conditioning should not be made a goal. A goal will be achieved in future, but this freedom is a living state from moment to moment.A living movement can never become the content of memory to be persued by thought as a goal.I would like to know your valuable comments on this.-Regards.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

phil K wrote: Without the self, there is some semblance of hope.

so as you yourself wrote the above captioned sentence, it is safe to say that there is no semblance of hope in it? or are your words an illusion? could you have easily said there is only hope and meant it?

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: Sir,when one is aware of the state of being, then al the activities of the self are clearly seen to be taking place at the level of thought.This becomes very clearonceand for all, that words are not the thing.Then all the activities of the self can continue, but they are not influencing the action.Action now is taking place from 'seeing' and is not ideation.

Hi Dr. Very well put,if I may say.Self is thought,and thought is self,nice makes sense, thank you

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

Therese...once again I cant answer you....i definitely need more philosophical background to get your jist...lol...

sorry I have not been posting but have had too much holiday occupation...I started three posts answers and just saved them to finish later..maybe tomorrow...

phil K wrote: I still think that freedom from conditioning is the goal of the individual man.

Dr. Sudhir wrote: Sir,freedom from conditioning should not be made a goal.

If I may intervene, I think Phil is absolutely correct in saying that freedom (from conditioning) is what the consciousness in whole mankind is striving for, albeit with different names and methods. Though the dynamic intelligence is trying to be free from whatever one may name it, the phrase 'freedom from conditioning' is an intellectual term to communicate the description of the bondage. The fact is that human intelligence is aware of the bondage and it wants to be free from it, and hence it is natural that it has become the objective, whether one likes it or not.

A goal will be achieved in future, but this freedom is a living state from moment to moment. A living movement can never become the content of memory to be persued by thought as a goal.I would like to know your valuable comments on this.-Regards.

I think, I understand what Dr.Sudhir's contention is. He has literally taken the words from K. According to K, hoping or intellectually exercising for freedom is futile, which we all agree. Because, the intellectual exercises are external performances or outcomes only and hence do not change or affect the basic platform of fragmented state of intelligence, which is the root cause of the whole problem. Though a goal is for the future, and if it is aimed to change the platform itself, then why not to pursue it? Sooner or later, in a new platform any way the 'living state from moment to moment' will definitely be there.

Just as numerous other concepts, the concept of the 'living movement' is also there in our memory. It is possible and so it is there. Thought isn't dynamic, it has no energy, it can't pursue anything. It is the dynamic intelligence or consciousness that is scanning memory for a solution, and the outcome of this process is the thought. Thought is like pictures on screen, which come and go off in a jiffy.

K's words have often confused many. Nevertheless, still it remains the best intellectual treatise in humanity, if a few lose ends are tied up.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

A correction to the last line in my last post: pl read as '...loose ends are tied up'.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Prasanna P wrote: Though a goal is for the future, and if it is aimed to change the platform itself, then why not to pursue it? Sooner or later, in a new platform any way the 'living state from moment to moment' will definitely be there.

Sir, one will never reach a new platform as pursuing the goal of changing the platform is strengthening this original platform.

Prasanna P wrote: It is the dynamic intelligence or consciousness that is scanning memory for a solution,...

Sir, dynamic consciousness doesn't scan memory for any solution as it is itself the solution.My understanding is that words of K or anybody should not be interpreted with words.They are the pointers to living states which can never be touched by words.-Regards.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: Sir, one will never reach a new platform as pursuing the goal of changing the platform is strengthening this original platform.

Let us go slowly. It is an accepted fact that human intelligence or consciousness is constantly engaged in intellectual activities. It is either to neutralize or escape from its bondage of fragmentation or in pursuit of freedom. Its own constant engagement in intellectual activities is preventing itself to repair its own dent or damage or fragmentation.

However, only when this intellectual pursuit or activity itself is stalled or abandoned, the consciousness is able to look at its own fragmentation. Then the mere looking at itself, begins the process of unification of its divisions and consequently it returns to its unfragmented state, which amounts to changing of the platform or structure itself.

Sir, dynamic consciousness doesn't scan memory for any solution as it is itself the solution.

You're right. The unfragmented consciousness is fully dynamic and it requires no solution. Because of fragmentation, the remaining natural consciousness has lost some of its dynamism, but not all. During the process of thinking, energy or a part of the consciousness flows into and scans the memory, thereby producing thoughts continuously.

My understanding is that words of K or anybody should not be interpreted with words.

There is no interpretation, but only communication here. Without words there can't be any communication. K also had to use words to convey all that he wanted to.

They are the pointers to living states which can never be touched by words.-Regards.>

Incidentally, these pointers also are in the form of words!

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

I am so glad this stayed on topic for the days I have not responded to Sudhir's post. So I will start with what I had saved.

Sudhir, I think the unconditioning can come about from intention and intention is different than attention in the moment. A goal in the usual sense means a beginning and an end, but when applied to conditioning there is probably no ending as one would always be subject to being conditioned as long as the mind has the ability to attach feeling to thought. In your example in post #273, you talk about seeing a man you do not like on the other side of the road and then being aware of your reactions when you meet up with him. This you point out ?If my attention can catch the origin and ending of each thought(reaction), then conditioning has no grip on my subsequent action and behavior. The important point here is to be attentive(a movement) till the reaction is over.? This is where I would ask the question as to ?How does one turn attention without intention?? If my intention is not to respond to people whom I don't like this is really a movement in thought and doesn't go much beyond ?anger management? as the psychologist would say. What we discuss is ending the conditioning that causes the reaction in the first place and is a much tougher goal. Granted as even K said, we must at least understand this all intellectually as anger management is certainly better than the alternative which is the wrong action. The problem is that one still has the ?reaction? as you point out and possibly attention from intention will not always dissipate the reaction.

In reference to your statements about the self in post #273, I would say that the self is not something to screw with in a manner of speaking. It either ends or it continues to add to reaction as I think its source is the self preservative instinct which will always turn the attention to perceived dangers as well as real dangers and one cannot help but react in this state of consciousness. Even conditioned states that are protected by the self preservative instinct are dangerous as not liking someone.

The semblance of hope I am referring to is that hope is referring to others. I would presume that K's continuing to talk for more than 60 years must have had some semblance of hope that the rest of us could understand his basic premise of ending the self. Anything short of that is just putting band aids on the problem, isn't it?

Ok, that gives my response to put along with Prasanna's. I would like to say one thing about the fragmented consciousness. Consciousness as I see it is nothing but fragmentation and can't be made whole. If consciousness is its content, where is there a whole to that since all memory is fragmented?? Awareness is not consciousness. Self consciousness may exist in a state of awareness but not when the consciousness calls the state of observing content ?me? the observer or calls the ?I? the thinker. ?I think, therefore, I am? is the Descartes mistake. I feel therefore I am is the conditioned state of self. I feel therefore I think I am is the truthful illusion but this comes from the moment of observing thought and feeling at the same time and then making the mistake of naming this process as the ?me.? Awareness attacking this entire process will become the ending of the self in mankind. But as I have said now many times I don't think this ends the self image or ego as feeling.

phil K wrote: This you point out ?If my attention can catch the origin and ending of each thought(reaction), then conditioning has no grip on my subsequent action and behavior. The important point here is to be attentive(a movement) till the reaction is over.? This is where I would ask the question as to ?How does one turn attention without intention??

Phil Sir,if you turn attention towards something with intention, won't that become concentration (a thought generated activity)?

phil K wrote: What we discuss is ending the conditioning that causes the reaction in the first place and is a much tougher goal.

Sir, let us try to understand different levels at which thought occures.Perception of environment can take place from different levels (or depth) of mind.Thought at the level of self will generate an emotional reaction.But when it is under the spot light of attention, it can only come up with the details of immediate environment(words without the emotional component).Then there is the deeper or higher level which is of the awareness and here mind is totally silent(no words).

Conditioning takes very deep roots at the level of self.At the second level the memory is formed but no emotions get attached to thoughts.Ending of conditioning is total at third level and this is a moment to moment affair.

phil K wrote: I would say that the self is not something to screw with in a manner of speaking. It either ends or it continues to add to reaction as I think its source is the self preservative instinct which will always turn the attention to perceived dangers as well as real dangers and one cannot help but react in this state of consciousness.

Sir, self is the result of operation of the mind in darkness.It starts getting weakened with attention and is dissolved in awareness.To live in awareness is to live in insecurity but that turns out to be the best kind of security later.The self will dissolve only if one is living in awareness as there would be no need to achieve the kind of security the self wants.Also, there is no energy available to fuel the activities of the self.

Sir, when I reply to your post, I try to describe what actually takes place inside my brain.I appreciate your reply as it makes my understanding clearer.-Regards.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Prasanna P wrote: Let us go slowly. It is an accepted fact that human intelligence or consciousness is constantly engaged in intellectual activities. It is either to neutralize or escape from its bondage of fragmentation or in pursuit of freedom.

Sir, I will question this statement that human consciousness is constantly engaged in persuit of freedom or escape from its bondage.I feel first of all we want to end our pain, sorrow, lonliness, fear etc.Then from one or the other kind of source, we come to know that our miseries can end if we can mend this fragmentation or achieve a state of freedom.The intellectual activity to gain freedom appears as result of our wanting to end pain etc and is not a natural endeavour of human consciousness.-Regards.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

On turning attention:

It's a trap, a grave error. All psychological movement (which is the thing itself) sustains duality.

Where thought arises and where it dissolves, There you should abide, O my son.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: phil K wrote: This you point out ?If my attention can catch the origin and ending of each thought(reaction), then conditioning has no grip on my subsequent action and behavior. The important point here is to be attentive(a movement) till the reaction is over.? This is where I would ask the question as to ?How does one turn attention without intention?? Phil Sir,if you turn attention towards something with intention, won't that become concentration (a thought generated activity)?

Yes. that was exactly my point to your statement which is what you quoted here. My statement was a question at the end. I was pointing out that you were conditioned in the first place with your example and so your intention was thought produced with emotion in the first place. Now intention that is not conditioned is needed in all cases of directed thinking. Otherwise thinking is random. If I don't set a destination (intention), then I just go out for a walk. K asked that people go with him on his walks because he would get lost. He didn't want intention, I presume, while enjoying nature.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: Sir, let us try to understand different levels at which thought occures.Perception of environment can take place from different levels (or depth) of mind

Ok..Perception does not take place in the mind but at different places in the body as in the senses. The memory or the elements of the mind are formed after perception and this happens only at the subconscious level. Perception of consciousness known as self consciousness is at the instant, also, at the subconscious level probably and only reaches consciousness after the delay too. The whole process of conditioned thinking verses unconditioned thinking just has to do with what emotions are attached to what concepts. The self and self image are just two of these processes. They have to do with certain concepts and are supported by the emotion of the self protective process. They are not, however, the whole ball of wax. I think the new poster Elizabeth A has pointed out totally clearly the ending of the self image and I would refer readers to her posts for clarity of what I call the right brain self. I, in my forum, am trying to bring up the self that exists only in verbal thought and also, the continuing challenge of change that occurs even after the ending of the selves.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: Sir, self is the result of operation of the mind in darkness.It starts getting weakened with attention and is dissolved in awareness.To live in awareness is to live in insecurity but that turns out to be the best kind of security later.The self will dissolve only if one is living in awareness as there would be no need to achieve the kind of security the self wants.Also, there is no energy available to fuel the activities of the self.

The self is not fueled by anything. It just exists as ?a? thought supported by feeling and feeling is, in essence, the thing that the mind is there to worry about. Think about that last statement. Why does the mind ?worry?? It worries because something is a danger. Now are all the thoughts we have that go down to the amygdala and cause a response in the adrenal glands with cortisol really things we should ?worry? about? I think not! I think that thought has been conditioned. Not conditioned by anyone particularly but by the process of non advancement of intelligence of mankind. Reread that statement. This does not mean, we went a wrong turn but that we just aren't intelligent enough yet to understand the entire process of the mind. How does that intelligence come about. Maybe it needs more information. Maybe it needs more understanding of what is going on. Maybe one needs more introspection. And maybe one needs to end the mistakes that it has already made like the fact that thought does not need to have fear to give it a reality. The reality is in life. In the nature of the world. Man is just an interpreter of that. Man's mind has just come along and developed senses beyond the senses of the other animals even though we have lost certain senses like smell, seeing and acute hearing. What man has developed is an advanced cortex which is the gray matter above the limbic system and in that gray matter there are massive connections that allow for a thinking process beyond all other animals. Everywhere on this site people are criticizing mankind and his mistakes. But it is only mankind that will solve the problem. If we think that we have created the problem and that somewhere we went wrong and we only have to return to the past, we are totally delusional. We are at the top of the world but at the same time as being able to destroy the world, we could change the world to be the best place in the universe. Yet, we will never do this as long as we remain separate. We will never do that as long as we don't listen to people like Elizabeth A.

I have been at this a lot longer than Elizabeth and I know the dangers of naivette. That is, I know that I don't want to jump in to the water and tell people I have changed (transformed). I tried that early on and saw what it got me and I did it in Ojai! I knew that this would cause the abuse she received at the hands of the Kinfonet geniuses. The male ego, which is a feeling, reigns supreme. Women hate it, yet they too have no solution for that or their own misbegotten images created by biology and the mistake that feeling creates in thought and then the subsequent responses.

Sir, when I reply to your post, I try to describe what actually takes place inside my brain.I appreciate your reply as it makes my understanding clearer.-Regards Maybe, Sudhir, its time to stop looking at how you ?are? working and look at how maybe you ?could? work. I think this would mean just asking questions. I know that was the beginning of the end for me when I stopped telling K how I think I am and should be and try to figure out what the hell he was talking about. I think I always had doubt. There was something wrong. How the hell could these people around me be telling me the truth when they constantly lied to me, only for me to find out later the truth in thought. I was always suspicious and always in doubt even of K. But the day that I decided to open up and ask the right questions and look in to myself, the answers were there. I think Elizabeth would agree to this. The freedom from that day on has been amazing. Yet, it is not a process with an end. There is no enlightenment or truth that can sustain me tomorrow and I am not a guru or can I teach anyone what I know because I cant know it as such. But I can answer questions? However, the answers are in thought and will die the moment I have said them because they are not the answers to your questions except for the moment you propose them and in time for me to answer, your questions may have changed. That is the problem with the internet. I have a friend who asked me questions day in and day out and finally I answered one that made sense and he changed. Was that my answer that made sense or his understanding that made sense to him? Obviously, the latter. I don't make any sense whatsoever. Look at all this shit I talk about about the brain. It totally makes sense to me, but it will only make sense to someone else when they are in the right place at the right time that it hits them. That is the entire body of work of K. I am writing stuff for the intellectual mind to understand and change. If I were an artist who changed maybe I could just paint pictures or if I were a musician, I would compose a sonata that would make sense.

The futility of this process of teaching in this case is astounding to me and that is why I seek other avenues as the brain studies because I do know that someone who is searching and I am searching at the same time will come along and maybe something that is said will be a light in to oneself. Not my light but a light from the words which are not the thing but the truth. They only remain the truth for the moment. But change is something that happens in the moment in all cases with all investigations.

Sudhir...you seem genuinely interested in pursuit of something as I was. Yet the educated doctor mind may be looking for answers within its own system. Observation within the system will lead only to results within the system which is what I read in your posts. We go back and forth and I try to explain things but it always leads back to your process of your looking into yourself. Maybe you need a break to see if the person looking is not a representation of the self itself in some form. There are three of you: One that thinks it can solve the problem and one that feels that it can solve the problem and then one that holistically understands everything but itself. Jesus, I don't know where I came up with that last statement but I think it is true. None of this is ever going to be understood by anything within us that already exists as the reality that it thinks it has. Doubt all...question wherever is possible and seek within oneself....biblically speaking: Seek and ye shall find! Good luck...lol.

Due to time constraints and the continuing deterioration of my parents health, I am unable to efficiently monitor my forum as topics have become too diverse.. I appreciate all who have posted and hope the best for Kinfonet to continue to provide a place for people to talk about what they think about Krishnamurti. With this I am closing the forum to further comment.