Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
K, psychology and the physical brain | moderated by phil K

Krishnamurti and Bohm on the Physical Brain.....

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Sat, 06 Jun 2009 #1
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David Bohm: The brain is material. Material exists, it
has an actuality apart from thought, but we don't know
it. We know only some of it, the complete depths of
matter are unknown to us and perhaps will never be known,
though we may know about it more and more. The brain,
being made of matter is constituted matter. We could
never follow into the complete unknown depths in which
thought arises in matter.

Thought has become conditioned over the ages, partly by
heredity, and partly through tradition, culture, and
environment. It has been conditioned to self-deception,
to falsify, to distort. And this is in the material
structure of the brain. In one sense this conditioning
constitutes a subtle kind of brain damage. Conditioning
gives great importance to thought, to the self and to
the center. It overloads, it distorts and gradually
damages the brain.

J. Krishnamurti: Yes. Are you saying sir, that when the
brain is overloaded by economic conditions, social
environment...

D. B.: By fear and sorrow.

K.: ...by all the things that are going on in human
beings, it does damage to the brain cells? I think that
is so, that can be accepted.

D.B.: There is real physical, chemical damage to the
brain cells and those damaged brain cells will produce
thought that is inherently distorted. Therefore, as
thought tries to correct that damage, it does so from
a distorted brain.

K.: Which will make it worse.

D.B.: Because it is distorted it must make it worse.


My question here would be: if there is real physical and chemical damage to the brain as Bohm observes and Krishnamurti seems to agree with; is it possible that the damage may be permanent or irreversable? In which case the brain would not under any circumstances be able to become whole or right-functioning and atttain to that rare state of mind and being that Krishnamurti had obviously attained to?

Bob Michael

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Fri, 18 Sep 2009.

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #2
Thumb_brain1_f phil K United States 351 posts in this forum Offline

Bob...I think that even K has said that one can change the direction of the brain and rewire the neurons. There is pretty much evidence in neurology that this is also a possibility especially in the young. They are working on things in neurology by looking at things like the phantom arm. IN the case of drugs, some drugs have irreversible affects like cocaine and meth but alcholics can rejuvenate most of their brain functions after quitting. I have read though that in the future as we stop the ending of aging by controlling the telomerase gene, there will still be something that has to be done about the neurons as in maybe some kind of chip implantation. I am sure others may have input into this too. Pretty much what is known is that the brain even with a small amount of neurons operating can have a rich life. ONe thing I just saw on the Alzheimers show on HBO was an example of a woman who had a rich life with many interpersonal connections and she died with no outward signs of Alzheimers at 90 yet her brain was riddled with amalayse plaque which is a sign of alzheimers. Another lady with one tenth of the interpersonal realationships dies at 80 with serious alzheimers symptoms and she had less plaque than the other woman. So it is probably how we use our brains and not the capacity of our brains that is most important.

I think the real issue with the Bohm and K discussion is what happens when man starts to think in a different direction. Is the thinking in one direction irreversible because of the brain structure or if the thinking changes then the brain structure may change to accomodate the new thinking. So its chicken and the egg. Frankly, I have observed that thinking can change once the conditionings are ended. It is the emotional states of conditioning that seem to drive our thinking and if the attachment to the emotional states are ended, then one can reevaluate his own thinking process and make choices that make sense based on present logical input.

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Sun, 07 Jun 2009 #3
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

My view is that due to our enculturation or conditioning by profoundly sick (or 'fallen') societies there is irreparable brain damage in the vast majority of people. And because of this mankind at large cannot find his way out of the present human dilemma and our world headed for an all out nuclear holocast. Krishnamurti also said that if man doesn't change we are headed for nuclear war. And I see no real or 'radical' change, like he insisted was necessary, taking place in anyone anywhere. Only endless talk about change. Which is not change at all.

Bob Michael

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Thu, 15 Oct 2009.

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Mon, 08 Jun 2009 #4
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 235 posts in this forum Offline

Robert,

"My view is that due to our enculturation or conditioning by profoundly sick (or 'fallen') societies there is irreparable brain damage in the vast majority of people. And because of this mankind at large cannot find his way out of the present human dilemma . . ."

There is no way of knowing whether the vast majority of people have brain damage to the extent that they are physically unable to understand the critical problems with which they, and humanity, are faced. Humanity may just be on a one-way trip into chaos, with nothing to be done. As Boehm and Krishnamurti discussed at one time, somewhere along the line it appears humanity took a wrong turn.

But in the meantime, we will see what we will see, brain damaged or not. In this vein, here's a question: Is the brain the seat of a sixth sense, in addition to the five we have identified? I'm not talking about something paranormal or mystical, I'm suggesting that the brain has a sixth sense called "understanding." My reasoning here is that understanding is often called "seeing," and I wonder if that isn't exactly what it is--seeing with the brain.

It would be this "sixth sense" that would be most affected by enculturation and conditioning.

max

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Mon, 08 Jun 2009 #5
Thumb_brain1_f phil K United States 351 posts in this forum Offline

Bob...I have spoken to someone who said that K said he would just sit on his front porch if he knew the bomb was coming and enjoy the beautiful mushroom cloud. Its been over 25 years since he said that and we are still here and there is no real change. If anything, we are closer to annihilation. However, we get up and plug away, eternal optimists thinking that we will make it through the day. Without that optimism in reality, we would all be depressed if we thought about the things that could really happen.

In my view, we still have a chance for change as long as we talk about real change....not the change that politicians or religioius leaders or gurus of all countries give us, but our search for what makes this whole thing tick. I dont think that I am damaged so irreparably beyond hope. I have seen progress and worked on this for a number of years. My hope is in pursuing K who offered us a prospective of a new consciousness but who did not live long enough to take us in to a new century of technological progress that must be dealt with and in to a new century that can investigate the brain/mind connection possibly to the point of verifying what K said and taking it to a new level.

The present consciousness appears to maybe have been here for just 3000 years...Julian Jaynes..Bicamaral mind....Tor Norretranders..The User Illusion supporting this theory. It seems reasonable argument to me too. It may have even been presented to K who may have thought it had some validity, but that is just my speculation from some conversations I have been in. You see, it is a change in consciousness that needs to happen. A movement away from the "I" as center and the "ego" as purveyor of consciousness. These, to me, are the two states that the present bicamaral brain lives in. The evolution from these states takes awareness but the journey out of it is difficult as we live around a world of people who believe in the whole process and just are happy with their pleasures and spend their time in that pursuit while limiting themselves with avoiding things they think might give them psychological pain.

K worked very hard for almost 60 years talking about a major change but two weeks before he died, he said that no one understood him. If his words have still not changed man and if those who come to these sites cannot in discussing K through dialogue bring about change, what do we have left? Run away and seek our own pleasures is an alternative or just post on these sites trying to see what happens.

I personally am just wondering what would happen if science were to discover what the mind really is and how the "I" really is an illusion and how the "ego" is nothing more than thought and emotion getting it all wrong in a state of misperception of the truth.

Thanks for continuing to post until this thing can get going. The site is new and very confusing. I am looking forward to chatrooms.

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Mon, 08 Jun 2009 #6
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Max,

Yes, I do have a deep understanding of that vital "sixth sense" that you mention. And my long re-awakened and purified "sixth sense" (or intuitive mechanism as I sometimes call it) clearly indicates to me that the vast majority of people suffer from irreparable brain (formational) damage due to their grossly corrupt or unhuman enculturation or conditioning. The lacking of love especially in the early formative years being the key factor here. And as a result their innate "sixth sense" has been permanently destroyed rather than finely developed. Never to become sound and whole again or attain to the liberation and rare state of mind and being that Krishnamurti possessed. Therefore these people will blindly add essentially nothing but unending conflict and violence (in their many forms) to life and the world around them.

I don't agree with K and Bohm that humanity took a wrong turn. Rather I feel that the evolutionary process is perfectly on course. And that all the human suffering and all its many ramifications are simply a natural part of it. Making my only goal in life to be perfectly in tune with it ( the Master Plan, if you will), and primarily in a manner that focuses on the liberation a few of my fellows that are potentially transformable. Those whose intuitive mechanisms haven't been permanently damaged by their conditioning and can thereby be restored to perfect working order again. Along of course with its beholder attaining to fullness of human being.

K often stressed the need for having such qualities as sensitivity, a healthy and rich mind, and a heart that is full and capable of intense feeling if one is to find God, Truth, or Love (He states this rather eloquently in length in 'The Book of Life' - May 1). I fully agree with him here and observe that nearly everywhere all around me, people, from the bottom to the top, are instead insensitive, cold, callous, unfeeling, unthinking, and quite indifferent to the wall-to-wall suffering and misery, both their own and that of those around them.

How about "seeing with the heart" or learning the "language of the heart"?

Bob Michael

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Mon, 08 Jun 2009 #7
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Phil,

I believe that a nuclear holocaust is inevitable and quite perfectly a natural part of the making of man. And nothing to be depressed about. K didn't seem at all depressed at the possibility of observing a "beautiful mushroom cloud."

Likewise I remain optimistic for mankind, or at least a small portion of it. Those relatively few more finely-formed souls that are capable of going through a radical 'turning point' awakening experience like K did in 1922. Which so far as I'm concern is what it takes in order for a real change or 'shift' in consciousness (I tend to prefer conscience here) to take place in a person. And which is something that K seemed to totally ignore the importance of. Whereas he should have made it a priority.

In that statement K made 10 days before he died regarding no one understanding him, and wherein he essentially admitted failure, he said the following: "Nobody, UNLESS THE BODY HAS BEEN PREPARED, VERY CAREFULLY, PROTECTED AND SO ON - nobody can understand what went through this body....." To me what K is actually referring to here apparently without being fully aware or admitting of it is the extraordinarily close and deeply loving bond and spiritual relationship that he had with his mother from day one. Which leaves no doubt whatsoever in my mind that it was this alone that made K the extraordinary human being that he was. I have come to clearly see that I too had a lot of love and caring in my early and critical formative years of life which enabled me to also undergo a revolutionary awakening experience at the age of 36.

Science knows nothing about love, which alone will someday be humanity's saving grace. Genuine 'enlightenment' thereby being a return to love. That is if its seed was firmly planted within in the early developmental years.

Bob Michael

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Mon, 08 Jun 2009 #8
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Robert Michael wrote:
"My view is that due to our enculturation or conditioning by profoundly sick (or 'fallen') societies there is irreparable brain damage in the vast majority of people. And because of this mankind at large cannot find his way out of the present human dilemma....."

"A human nurtured instead of shamed, and loved instead of driven by fear, develops a different brain and therefore a different mind. He will not act against the well-being of another nor against his larger body, the living Earth." (Joseph Chilton Pearce)

"An unloved child has a different kind of physical brain than a loved child. The damage is not simply psychological. It is neurological and therefore, physical. Ultimately, it is the lack of love which does us in before our time, (Arthur) Janov writes. He believes that early trauma causes a reduction of functioning brain synapses (connections)."

"The sensory deprivation of pleasure results in the failure of certain neural pathways to develop and develop properly. Sensory stimulation acts like a nutrient for brain growth and development. The richer the networks, the greater the interconnectivity and neural integration of the brain.....A rich array of sensory stimuli, of all the senses, maximises development of the brain. If we do not get the sensory stimulation we equate with love, bonding, and intimacy during the formative period of brain development, we're going to be impaired, if
not crippled, in our ability to experience and express the "language of love" later in life." (James Prescott)

While I agree wholeheartedly with the above views, as is the case also with those of Bohm and Krishnamurti on the matter, I feel that none of the writers/observers deeply realize the gravity or tragic nature of the problem. And therefore weren't and won't be at all instrumental in freeing man from this evolutionary plague or stuck point.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Mon, 08 Jun 2009 #9
Thumb_brain1_f phil K United States 351 posts in this forum Offline

I am afraid I have to totally disagree with the conclusions you have made about man being irreparable even with a bad mother. I too went through a major transformation at age 26 but did not in any way shape or form have a mother as you described. It would be a shame to think that people reared orphans or abused in childhood are ruled out of change and to condemn them to no chance but do be contributors to the inevitable doom that we all may be predicting. I have, also, worked with others who have had a terrible childhood who have gone through major change.

I may be delusional but I in no way think the changes that have happened to me cannot be had by everyone and my delusion may extend to my thinking I have had changes. I do not live in nature nor have a consciousness as clear as K. I do not have a conscience either. For me compassion comes naturally along with passion and curiosity. There is no need for conscience. These things are awakened as the conditioned states are ended. I really didnt want to make personal statements but I dont see how to go on with my forum without having the premise that all men are changeable. If I didnt see this as a possibility, I would just be running around looking for friends with great childhoods. Frankly, I have never met anyone like that as all whom I have met have been conditioned by well meaning mothers, which my mother was. Conditioned love can turn one in to a terroist too. Love as oxytocin and dopamine is not what I think K meant by love. K, also, once said that he wouldn't guarantee that if he had a child it would come out understanding what he had to say.

Thanks for your inciteful post, though. It probably is going to get some attention here. I bet they will be clammering to join this forum now.

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Tue, 09 Jun 2009 #10
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Robert Michael wrote:
Science knows nothing about love, which alone will someday be humanity's saving grace. Genuine 'enlightenment' thereby being a return to love. That is if its seed was firmly planted within in the early developmental years.

"It is Love alone that leads to right action. What brings order in the world is to Love and let Love do what it will."

"If you Love there is no need for discipline, is there? Love brings its own creative understanding, therefore there is no resistance, no conflict; but to Love with such complete integration is possible only when you feel deeply secure, completely at home, especially while you are young."

(J. K. - 'Think On These Things')

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Thu, 15 Oct 2009.

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Tue, 09 Jun 2009 #11
Thumb_brain1_f phil K United States 351 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, Bob, that is all true and not because K said it but the fact is most everyone in the world lives in a false security created by parents who think security is in thought or possessions.They are much too interested in making their own children just like them exclusive of the neighbors children equally. Love is universal and not selective. Love is not a topic I am interested in talking about on here at this time. It is too far down the road. K said Love is not a feeling and to understand that statement takes a very aware mind with a great deal of freedom from conditioning. I think we have to go a lot slower. Others may pursue it if they want but I will stay out of it for now.

Gosh this format is tough to follow. I almost didnt even see your post and now my post will go after the next one so it is not answering yours directly.

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Tue, 09 Jun 2009 #12
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Phil King wrote:
They (parents) are much too interested in making their own children just like them exclusive of the neighbors children equally.

Yes, but my view is that even good and decent parent's children in these last days, will, in most cases, quickly be fatally corrupted and spoiled by the "profoundly sick society" (K) that's all around them.

It's been said that it takes a village to raise a child. But now-a-days it seems instead the village is quick to ruin even the best of children.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Tue, 09 Jun 2009 #13
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Phil King wrote:
I really didnt want to make personal statements but I dont see how to go on with my forum without having the premise that all men are changeable. If I didnt see this as a possibility, I would just be running around looking for friends with great childhoods.

Remember K once said that perhaps only 10% of the species was capable of transcending the conditioned 'me'?

I spoke of the importance of having love in the early formative years of life. And if a child has a sufficient realization of love in the developmental years, he will not necessarily have a 'great childhood'. But on the contrary, with a good foundation of love will automatically come the keen intuitive awareness that something is not right with the world and the people all around him. Making his childhood quite unpleasant, at least at times. And being an essentially 'helpless' child, he'll find no understanding or support of his observations, thoughts, and feelings from others or a way out of his dilemma either. But rather as he grows up he'll get more and more sucked into and entrenched in the universal corruption and violence. But if he is able to hang on to his more finely-formed and sensitive neurological construct and not surrender it (his soul?) to the ways of the "profoundly sick society" that surrounds him; he may hopefully later in life manage to undergo a breakdown and a revolutionary transformative or rebirth experience (like K underwent in 1922 at the age of 27), and then begin the process of total organismal purification. Or the journey back again to Love, the greatest of all gifts. Kierkegaard also recognized in his day and his own way what I'm trying to get across here.

"Most people never attain to faith. For a long time they live on in immediateness and finally they attain to a certain amount of reflection, and so they die. The exceptions begin the other way round, from childhood up dialectical, i.e., without
immediateness, they begin with dialectics, with reflection and in that way live on year after year (just about as long as others live in the immediate) and then, at a ripe age, the possibility of faith shows itself to them. For faith is immediateness after reflection. The exceptions, naturally, have a very unhappy childhood and youth; for to be essentially reflective at an age which is naturally immediate, is the depths of melancholy. But they are recompensed; for most people do not succeed in becoming spirit, and all of their fortunate years of their immediateness are, where spirit is concerned, a loss and therefore they never attain to spirit. But the unhappy childhood and youth of the exception is transfigured into spirit." [Soren Kierkegaard]

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Thu, 15 Oct 2009.

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Tue, 09 Jun 2009 #14
Thumb_brain1_f phil K United States 351 posts in this forum Offline

I think, Bob, this is well presented post. I am not sure I understand the Kierkegaard, though.

Just a couple of comments. No adjustment to any of the present societies or any of the present cultures including the ones at the K schools will help anyone become healthy or stay healthy as any form of conditioned conformity to anything stales the mind from living in the moment.

If K made your first statement about "only 10% of the species were capable of trandscending the conditioned me," I think he was being very optimistic. I doubt the present population of humans has 10% even slightly interested in let alone capable to randomly change their present consciousness. This, however, does not preclude any one man changing who is not a member of whatever that percentage might be. Maybe we should have Obama put that on our census report so we can find out how many out there are interested in a complete psychological change. He has everything else on it. Why not a question like: Do you want to change your state of conscioiusness where you would be free of the illusion of the I and your ego and you would dissolve all attachments to your family, friends, religions, culture, country and possessions?

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Tue, 09 Jun 2009 #15
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Phil King wrote:
Do you want to change your state of conscioiusness where you would be free of the illusion of the I and your ego and you would dissolve all attachments to your family, friends, religions, culture, country and possessions?

I have successfully done this. Though my awakening or radical transformation or 'mutation', and its accompanying freedom from the bondage of the long and wrongly conditioned and operating self, was not a choice that I made; but rather it manifested of itself from a compulsion or yearning from deep within my organism. It was also motivated and prompted by a great deal of despair, anguish, and suffering. One could more simply say it was an explosion of the love (or perhaps even God) seed that was firmly planted in me by the favorable (though far from perfect) circumstances of my upbringing. Which unfortunately few people are gifted with. Though often my deep sensitivity seemed to be more of a curse than a blessing. Until I became more and more centered and whole. I would add here that I find that warm, human touch is also very vital for the sound and wholesome formation of a human being. Which is something that's become nearly extinct in our fast paced, self-centered, unfeeling, cold, and callous world. Much like Gurdjieff (and I think K said it too) often remarked that men have become machines, "Machines they are born and machines they die." Although I disagree with him that men are born machines, but rather I feel they are born quite perfectly human, save for some exceptions here and there. But due to a loveless nurture and upbringing by machinelike parents in a machinelike world, they fast and choicelessly become machines. How can they not?

"From the moment of birth, when the stone-age baby confronts the twentieth-century mother, the baby is subjected to these forces of violence, called love, as its mother and father have been, and their parents and their parents before them, These forces are mainly concerned with destroying most of its potentialities. This enterprise is on the whole successful." (R. D. Laing)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 09 Jun 2009.

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Tue, 09 Jun 2009 #16
Thumb_brain1_f phil K United States 351 posts in this forum Offline

Very personal and well stated, Bob. So when Obama asks my question you quoted at the beginning on his 2010 census report....you will have to say "Been there Done that!"

We will just have to see how the other 300 million americans answer now to see if we can get to K's 30 mill or 10%.

So now taking your premise that there are only a few who can change which remember I dont agree with, but we are still in the same boat, how does one go about effecting that change in himself and in others. My personal view from experience is that you cannot effect change in another but everyone can effect it in himself. Your view as I understand it right now is that the relatively few less undamaged beings can effect change in themselves or can be effected by another. I would have to say that I think the relatively undamaged have an easier road, lets say, to changing as they may have fewer in depth conditionings to hurdle, but in the later case I would say that no one can change another one still as the intent of the person who wants to change someone is to direct the other person in a direction chosen by him or her. Setting man unconditionally free is not a project with intent or motive to an end, but is an insight in to the mistake in the direction of thinking. As a former math teacher, I could teach kids the basics of math, but I could not teach them when and how to use it. As an analogy, one can only attempt to explain the truths about the mind and brain or investigate in himself those truths, and one can never teach another how to use it nor search a path to follow in himself.

This post was last updated by phil K Wed, 10 Jun 2009.

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Wed, 10 Jun 2009 #17
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

phil King wrote:
phil King
Tue, 09 Jun 2009, 7:20pm Very personal and well stated, Bob. So when Obama asks my question you quoted at the beginning on his 2010 census report....you will have to say "Been there Done that!"
We will just have to see how the other 300 million americans answer now to see if we can get to K's 30 mill or 10%.

I feel very strongly that it is our own shared personal experiences of radical transformation and change that best helps others in their own journey of self-discovery and self-overcoming. And the lacking in this area by Krishnamurti and many others was the main reason they all failed in being genuinely effective in the freeing of some of their fellows. Along with the fact that K's liberation came too fast and too easy for him and consequently he never quite figured himself out or fully understood what took place in him and made him what he was. Nor did he ever come up with a workable plan for the awakening and transformation of others.

Actually my been there - done that list in life is quite long and wide. So along with a deeply penetrating insight into and understanding of myself, I think these many life experiences may enable me to be of some real help to others.

As I think I said before, I feel that the number of those who are capable of fully transcending the "me" is even less than 10% like K once said. And not because they are "not interested" or "won't even listen", as he said, but because they are incapable of transformation due to the lacking of a finely-formed and sensitive neurological makeup.

"The man who is completely "me", there is no awakening in him. He is not interested. He won't even listen to you.....He probably makes up eighty percent of the world, more perhaps, ninety percent." (J. K. - The Awakening of Intelligence')

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Wed, 10 Jun 2009 #18
Thumb_brain1_f phil K United States 351 posts in this forum Offline

Yes to all you just said, Bob.

Let's inverstigate a "workable plan" that is not leader and follower...teacher and taught...or system and method....

My plan involves scientific discovery as in Copernicus finding out the fact that the earth revolves around the sun instead of the universe revolves around the earth. This discovery would not be unlike this once we realize that we actually are a piece of the universe and it doesnt revolve around the personal "me" and "ego," family, culture, country earth etc.

By the way I have already been attacked for my premise by someone wanting to join me on my forum saying that he didnt think science can solve anything because it all just changes anyway in 100 years. This is a valid point, but who thinks we have a 100 years.
Science is some what of an acceptable "brick" right now and I think a starting point for the near future.

Thanks for you clear posts Bob, and they seem to come from the heart (which is just an expression and not necessarily anatomically correct).

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Thu, 11 Jun 2009 #19
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

phil King wrote:
As a former math teacher, I could teach kids the basics of math, but I could not teach them when and how to use it. As an analogy, one can only attempt to explain the truths about the mind and brain or investigate in himself those truths, and one can never teach another how to use it nor search a path to follow in himself.

I speak here Phil primarily of a teacher of a spiritual school or a school for self-overcoming, if you will. Though the same basic principles would apply to all types of teachers.

First of all, we cannot transmit something to others (i.e.that rare experience of being in a selfless state of mind,body, and spirit like K indeed exemplified) if we ourselves haven't got it. Secondly, a true teacher in the spiritual realm of things teaches best by the quality and integrity of the living example that he displays to others in his every word, thought, and deed, along with his very own shared personal experiences or trials and tribulations of transformation and organismal or soul purification. Third, a true teacher must be deeply immersed in and very open regarding the truth about himself (past, present, and future), human nature, and life itself. Fourth, he cannnot impose his will, ideas, or ways upon others, no matter how noble he knows them to be. Nor can he put himself for long in any typical classroom (child or adult) or group of people that are everywhere, due to the fallen condition of the species, filled largely with disinterested or mediocre people who have no passion or innate capacity for understanding or living and learning in the light of truth. And if this is the case he will soon come to clearly realize that he's in such a situation and move away from it. And fifth, he will then move on to creating his own group, body of people, or fellowship away from the beaten path which will operate on the principle of attraction rather than promotion. Which is essentially what K did when he walked away from the 'Order of the Star in the East' back in 1929. Though in the ensuing 57 years he never managed to create that body of people he spoke so optimistically and enthusiastically of in his 'Dissolution Speech' of 1929. But rather he developed several schools for children instead, which proved, even while he was still alive, to be unfruitful regarding the true purpose with which they were founded. And instead they turned into the very same sort of institutions he deplored and criticised throughout his many years.

".....Those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without beginning and without end, will walk together with a greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding there will be true friendship - which you do not seem to know - there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And not because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice..... My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free." (J. Krishnamurti - 'Dissolution Speech' - 1929)

"If parents love their children, they will not be nationalistic, they will not identify themselves with any country; for the worship of the State brings on war, which kills or maims their sons. If parents love their children, they will discover what is right relationship to property; for the possessive instinct has given property an enormous and false significance which is destroying the world. If parents love their children, they will not belong to any organized religion; for dogma and belief divide people into conflicting groups, creating antagonism between man and man. If parents love their children, they will do away with envy and strife, and will set about altering fundamentally the structure of present-day society."

"As long as we want our children to be powerful, to have bigger and better positions, to become more and more successful, there is no love in our hearts; for the worship of success encourages conflict and misery. To love one?s children is to be in complete communion with them; it is to see that they have the kind of education that will help them to be sensitive, intelligent and integrated."

(J.K. - Education and the Significance of Life, Chapter 6)

What a brillantly insightful, understanding, loving, compassionate, and courageous mind and heart this man had! And yet how very, very few people, if any, truly and deeply understand him. Which he clearly and sorrowfully realized. Surely it could be rightly said that Krishnamurti, like Christ, overcame the world. Yet as time went on it seems the world began to overcome him to a certain degree, as was the case with so many outstanding men throughout history.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Thu, 11 Jun 2009 #20
Thumb_brain1_f phil K United States 351 posts in this forum Offline

Bob...this is again lovely statements, but where do we go from here. All these people are dead...really, really dead. What good is this going to do me or any of the people reading this forum. Its like reading the bible which K liked to read for the way it was written. K, I think, gets like that with people and becomes a security. I live in Mormon country and the boys on their missions read Joseph Smiths Book of Mormon over and over getting comfort in it. They are so brainwashed that they totally miss and wont read about the fallacy of the man who wrote it. The words put them to sleep at night and K's words can put one to sleep at night too. Frankly, I had a boy tell another group of boys on a trip with me years and years ago, if you need to go to sleep just ask Phil to talk about Krishnamurti. That shocked me and I learned a huge lesson from that.

Please say something we can go on with on this your topic or I am just going to quit responding. Notice we have several members now and no one is responding. Maybe you are putting all to sleep but me! Dont get offended cause all my posts on K ning ended most of the blogs and forums so I am subject to the same criticism.

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Thu, 11 Jun 2009 #21
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

phil King wrote:
Please say something we can go on with on this your topic or I am just going to quit responding. Notice we have several members now and no one is responding. Maybe you are putting all to sleep but me! Dont get offended cause all my posts on K ning ended most of the blogs and forums so I am subject to the same criticism.
Please say something we can go on with on this your topic or I am just going to quit responding. Notice we have several members now and no one is responding. Maybe you are putting all to sleep but me! Dont get offended cause all my posts on K ning ended most of the blogs and forums so I am subject to the same criticism.

How do you think Krishnamurti felt having talked to thousands of people for over 60 years while clearly realizing that no one understood him or found the liberation that he had attained to? One can only be patient, be still, get out of the way, and be sure to be a well and finely tuned instrument of Life. While always remembering to play good music while giving others the grace to sing along in their own time and their own way.

I think very often the people who are truly capable of grasping and developing the spiritual life tend to be shy and untrusting and slow to open up, since other people can often be misunderstanding, mean, and deceitful. Sometimes even quite brutal. Even in places like this. So let the 'several members' be, let them quietly observe if they so choose. K was quite shy and withdrawn himself, and especially in his early years. I was much the same myself for quite some time. And I surely didn't wake up and grow to full-bloom overnight, so I can't expect others to do so either. All I can do is try to plant good seeds and let the results up to the "Other', the 'Sacred', or the 'Beloved'. Or 'God' if you'd like.

So do whatever you feel like doing Phil, and I shall do likewise myself. Though I'd suggest you get out of the driver's seat and try to let life happen instead of trying to make it happen.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Fri, 18 Sep 2009.

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Thu, 11 Jun 2009 #22
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Robert Michael wrote:
Science knows nothing about love, which alone will someday be humanity's saving grace. Genuine 'enlightenment' thereby being a return to love. That is if its seed was firmly planted within in the early developmental years.

"A society without love is like a land without rivers, it is as a desert; but where there are rivers the land is rich, it has abundance, it has beauty. Most of us grow up without love, and that is why we have created a society as hideous as the people who live in it." (J. K. - 'Think On These Things')

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 #23
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"Love is something that is new, fresh, alive. It has no yesterday and no tomorrow. It is beyond the turmoil of thought. It is only the innocent mind which knows what love is, and the innocent mind can live in the world which is not innocent." (J. Krishnamurti)

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/love.html

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 #24
Thumb_avatar Remove Please Netherlands 9 posts in this forum Offline

Robert Michael wrote:
My question here would be: if there is real physical and chemical damage to the brain as Bohm observes and Krishnamurti seems to agree with; is it possible that the damage may be permanent or irreversable? In which case the brain would not under any circumstances be able to become whole or right-functioning and atttain to that rare state of mind and being that Krishnamurti had obviously attained to?

Hello Robert,

One of the main threads in this damage patern, is the discovery of death, and the refusal to accept it. The discovery originates in the new brain, the refusal in the old. Instinct takes existence implicitly for granted, and defends it against threats in anger and fear, but it cannot conceive of its change into non-existence. This refusal is one of the "leitmotivs" of history, perpetuating the conflict between faith and reason.

The refusal to accept death either as a natural or as a final phenomenon populated the world with witches, ghosts, ancestral spirits, gods, demi-gods angels and devils. The air became saturated with invisible presences.

So we have a discovery of death by the new brain, and a refusal of the old brain.

I think its permanent, the only solution is drop the body... :)

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 #25
Thumb_avatar Remove Please Netherlands 9 posts in this forum Offline

Robert Michael wrote:
My view is that due to our enculturation or conditioning by profoundly sick (or 'fallen') societies there is irreparable brain damage in the vast majority of people. And because of this mankind at large cannot find his way out of the present human dilemma and our world headed for an all out nuclear holocast. Krishnamurti also said that if man doesn't change we are headed for nuclear war. And I see no real or 'radical' change, like he insisted was necessary, taking place in anyone anywhere. Only endless talk about change. Which is not change at all.

Agreed...with one addition...Over-population will initiate the days of reckoning.

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 #26
Thumb_avatar Remove Please Netherlands 9 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
As Boehm and Krishnamurti discussed at one time, somewhere along the line it appears humanity took a wrong turn.
But in the meantime, we will see what we will see, brain damaged or not. In this vein, here's a question: Is the brain the seat of a sixth sense, in addition to the five we have identified? I'm not talking about something paranormal or mystical, I'm suggesting that the brain has a sixth sense called "understanding." My reasoning here is that understanding is often called "seeing," and I wonder if that isn't exactly what it is--seeing with the brain.

Bohm and K as I would call this "Sixt sense" Meaning.

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 #27
Thumb_avatar Remove Please Netherlands 9 posts in this forum Offline

Can thinking effect the old brain? Or does the old brain effect thinking.

Who is in charge?
What are the rules of the game?
What regulation channels are in place?

What happends with the old brain when it receives information thats wrong?

Your boss wants to know, if everything is fine, and you tell him, its bad, we are going bankcrupt, no its even worse, we are going to die. How would your boss react? Fight/Flee/Stress. Do you think he will become emotional? :)

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 #28
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jonathan Ruth wrote:
Can thinking effect the old brain? Or does the old brain effect thinking.

Hi Jonathan,

I don't subscribe to the notion of old brain and new brain.

Rather I feel its a matter of having either a finely-formed or natural brain or a malformed or damaged brain. Just as Krishnamurti and Bohm were investigating in the opening post above.

With a sufficient realization of love, caring, and human touch in its early formative years being the key ingredient in the making of the properly or naturally formed brain.

Nor does thinking or thought come into play all that much here either. But rather transformation and purification is a matter of the redevelopment again of the 'intuitive mechanism' or 'sixth sense' in the properly formed brain, since it was caught up and thereby distorted for a considerable time by living interactions with a great number of damaged brains. Or one might also say more simply that there must be a realignment again of the brain with the heart.

This being the purifying process that K said may go on for a lifetime.

Of course a 'shift', 'rebirth', or 'kundalini awakening' experience must take place first if there is to be new being and then on to right purification of the mind, body, and spirit "in relationship" out in the thick of life.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #29
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jonathan Ruth wrote:
Over-population will initiate the days of reckoning.

I agree here Jonathan, though I think if mankind would ever achieve collective sanity the earth could support 6.8 billion or more people. But this is never going to happen. It simply isn't in evolution's deck of cards.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #30
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 283 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

J. Krishnamurti wrote:

.....the innocent mind can live in the world which is not innocent.

While this is certainly true, my experience continues to be that doing so is not always easy nor is it all that pleasant a thing either. Since the awakened one has attained to possessing a genuine and overflowing love, joy, and zest for living which longs to be intimately shared and enjoyed with others. Making it thereby full and complete. Yet he finds this can be harmoniously accomplished only rarely, and even then it will be only on a fleeting or fragmentary level; since those all around him are inextricably bound up in the loveless prison of long and wrongly conditioned selfhood. Making him long at times for the 'bliss' of the lost and the ignorant. Which he knows can never be his.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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