psychology doesnt know what to do with faith, JK says find god for yourself, have you?

i, myself, dont know anything about god, but i do know many people who have faith, and i believe in those people, so i am like a cousin of faith once-removed, how do your friendships with the faithful go?

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

Hi THERESE, GLAD TO SEE YOUR BACK.. ACCORDING TO K ALL SELF BELIEFS EVENTUALLY HAVE TO GO UNTILL THERE IS NO SELF LEFT. THEN PERHAPS ONE MIGHT FIND GOD LOVE TRUTH
THANKS JIM.

NOTHING = NOTHING

JIM MC DONOUGH wrote:
ACCORDING TO K ALL SELF BELIEFS EVENTUALLY HAVE TO GO UNTILL THERE IS NO SELF LEFT. THEN PERHAPS ONE MIGHT FIND GOD LOVE TRUTH

yes, one might, and what about the people who think they have? do you have faith in their faith?

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

If one looks at the word "belief," he soon sees that the word implies ignorance and acceptance of that ignorance.

max

HI THERESE,
SINCE I GAVE UP MY FAITH IN ANY RELIGION OR ANY OTHER SPIRITUAL BELIEFS,WHAT ANOTHER PERSON BELIEVES OR DISBELIVES HAS NO EFFECT ON ME AT ALL.. IT'S KIND OF NEAT BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE NO SPIRTUAL BELIEFS YOU HAVE NO BELIEFS TODEFEND AND NO BELIEFS TO BEOFFENDED BY.
THANKS JIM

NOTHING = NOTHING

max greene wrote:
If one looks at the word "belief," he soon sees that the word implies ignorance and acceptance of that ignorance.

Hi Max,

I happen to believe in Love, Max. And my faith permits me to feel the presence of God, or the "Sacred", the "Beloved", or the "Other", as K also experienced and spoke of. And I don't feel I'm ignorant at all. Rather, I feel I have a great deal of wisdom along with that Intelligence K also often spoke of.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 20 Oct 2009.

Very interesting post, Therese, under my forum. Sounds a little like a good question for the Kinfonet forum and I don't answer those questions as people use the questions to form images of the people who answer them, but since you posted this here under the guise of ?psychology?....lol, I will answer it.

I have not found god nor experience any of the areas of the brain that may be accessed in the god zone of the brain. I would think this is because I am too left brain in the majority of my life to let go to those areas of the brain that may experience what people call ?religious experiences.? I think these experiences come more from a total release of language and thinking and an experiencing in nature and of the right brain other states of non verbal consciousness.

My experiences with the ?faithful? have not been good at all because they are sanctimonious and preach their beliefs as absolutes. It seems to me that one with a self who experiences any of these religious experiences turns it in to a belief system, which system has created cultures. All of those cultures seem to think that they have found the real ?god.? The Mormon country I have a home in thinks that they are the only true religion, yet the man who invented the religion perpetuated a provable complete hoax and the people themselves are closed to anyone who does not ?believe.? We can extend this kind of thinking to pretty much all of the break offs of Christianity and we know the dangers of the Muslim beliefs and their radical subcultures.

The one thing I do experience is a non-separation in consciousness between me and anything created in thought as all thought seems to be equal. That, to me, has been the most important understanding to deal with the present world. Faith by definition is a belief in an all powerful god. Belief is to me and to K and apparently to Max a danger; I will have to say that faith has no place in the human consciousness as it is a distortion of thought based on emotion which is a conditioned state.

Bob,

In no way should any of the following be taken personally, Bob. Please don't. I'm just illustrating the use of the words, and what they mean.

You say, "I happen to believe in Love . . . my faith permits me to feel the presence of God . . . And I don't feel I'm ignorant at all."

A couple of points here. Believing in love and having faith in the presence of God are not at all the same as actually having love and actually being in the presence of God.

To say you feel you're not ignorant is to say that you believe you aren't ignorant. In other words, you don't know for certain.
To not know is the very definition of ignorance.

If we know something for certain, for dead certain with no equivocating, we don't say, "I believe." Why should we, unless we have some political reason. We assert the fact. No one says, "I believe 2 x 2 = 4."

max

Max, Robert Michael is not interested in engaging in a reasonable discussion. He is impervious to reason. His only interest seems to be in propagating his delusion that he has "gone beyond Krishnamurti" and is, himself," truly enlightened". He has crashed many other threads and run a couple of people off this forum. The latest being a poster using the name Charlie Brown.

So far none of the moderators have had the gumption to simply remove Robert Michael's more offensive postings so the disruption continues. Believe me if you engage this guy he will hammer you with his delusions until you are ready to pull your hair out. I have found that it is simply not worth the energy to try to reason with this guy. I know I will probably take some flack for this posting but someone has to stand up to this guy and his delusions.

This post was last updated by David Loucks (account deleted) Wed, 11 Nov 2009.

Hi David Loucks,
I have had similar experiences with BOB/Robert Michael, but simply removed some of his extra-topical expressions unwarranted comments on others etc from my forum of AWARENESS IN THE WORLD TODAY. But patience is sometimes tested by a few individuals-it is nicely potrayed by you here,,, let us cooperate..

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

This post was last updated by Krishnan Srinivasan Fri, 16 Oct 2009.

David,

Thanks for you concern, and it is appreciated. I'm not being sarcastic here.

We're all in this together, some of us on the fringe, some of us in the center. For myself, if someone says something that I consider too far out, I feel I should just not respond. What one of our Kinfonet participants says is his business. What Kinfonet readers think is their business. None of us are forced to either read or respond to posts.

I'm sure that if anything is just too much and receives no responses or follow-ups, it will fade away with no effort needed.

max

max greene wrote:
I'm sure that if anything is just too much and receives no responses or follow-ups, it will fade away with no effort needed.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Yes Max has correctly pointed out here that those postings which bear truth will remain valid and others will fade away.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Therese Okamoto wrote:
Psychology doesn't know what to do with faith, JK says find God for yourself, have you?

Yes I have. And my experience is that God (or Truth [1]), which in restrospect were always within me) initially reappeared or 'found me' slowly, though often very dramatically, in those times when my mind somehow happened to be able to be still or quiet. What brough this stillness was coming to a point of deep despair over the total emptyness and meaninglessness of my life as lived and the utter vanity of all my various methods of seeking (which I feel is a must contrary to K [2]) a way out of it came to a dead-end whereby there occurred a genuine surrender, which was a momentary (at least) end of long-conditioned and operating self-will. Which permitted a radical shift in consciousness and a glimpse of the Light or a totally brand new, wholesome, and genuinely happy way of living, or at least a real possibility of such a thing taking place. Changing old long-standing habits, routines, and patterns of living I find was also often helpful in bringing in a sense of freshness or newness to a tired and decaying life and the bringing in of something totally brand new, including that radical shift or transformation. Likewise being in the presence of others or being given an encouraging word by those [3] who have had a glimpse of or a grip on the Divine or reading about the experiences of like people can help thrust one into a revolutionary awakening experience. And again, the quiet or still (defeated and desireless, yet ever-seeking) mind being the key to it all here. Whereupon I think of a line of Meister Eckhart's: 'With a quiet mind all things are possible'. Or the following meaningful and reassuring view I also picked up along the way:

Mind running fast = insanity,

Mind running slow = Saint,

Mind stopped = God.

So from my vantage point, and in retrospect, I find it definitely takes a sound, finely-formed, and sensitive mind in order to ever reach this necessary point of stillness and breakthrough of the new. A sensitive mind that's capable of seeing the false in oneself, especially, and of course in the people all around him, along with the horror and tragic nature of the human condition and deeply suffering over this realization [4]. A damaged mind (or one that's wired in essentially a self-seeking/self-protective thought mode) will never reach it, or if it does it will only be fleetingly and fragmentarily. Nor will a genuine shift or purifying process ever take place in such a mind. The damage will simply not permit it to realize that it's hopelessly stuck in the self-will/self-seeking operational mode. It will also be totally oblivious to the fact that it is not living true to it own full human potential or self-nature, nor will it be able to discern and change its deeply inherent self-delusion and dishonest and thereby deceitful and conflicting ways [5].

Therese Okamoto wrote:
I, myself, don't know anything about God, but I do know many people who have faith, and I believe in those people, so I am like a cousin of faith once-removed, how do your friendships with the faithful go?

I know of many who profess to have faith or belief in God, many of them sincere, honest, and sensitive souls, yet I know of no one who has the faith or that state of all-knowingness/all-self-forgettingness that K, Christ, the Buddha, and some others have had. Which is not to have faith at all, since real faith requires a transformative or a total death of self experience, which includes a radical shift in consciousness along with an earnest and unending brain purification process [6]. Without which (the latter) the mind will quickly revert back again to it old patterns of self or self-will. While the revelatory experiences of "finding God" could certainly be considered having glimpses of the Divine, yet I think the overall process can be given a psychological explanation in that God is simply the awakening and the re-purification of one's conscience or consciousness along with his whole being. So, in a sense, one could say there is no God, only Godliness as actively embodied and exemplified in one's own being.

I would conclude here, from my own experiences and those of others, that unless a man is born again (which again is a radical shift in consciousness or brain clarity and functioning [7]), as definitely happened to K back in 1922, he cannot enter into the "Kingdom of Happiness" (K). Nor will he have any real and vital living experiences of a God, Truth, Love, or a Power that's greater than himself or whatever one chooses to call this extraordinary state of being that again can only be genuinely and fully known and attained to by those with a pure, or potentially pure, mind and heart. Which could also be said to be a finely-formed brain and sensory system or neurological makeup.

And in summation Therese, and as K states below, I too "hope you are lucky" (or are blessed with grace) in your quest for finding God. Along with the following line which I've come to fully understand and experience first-hand, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."

Wishing you and yours the very best possible seeing!

Bob M.

Footnotes:

[1] "Truth, the real God - the real God, not the God that man has made....." (J. K. - 'The Book of Life' - May 1)

[2] "You are responsible for yourself and nobody else. It is your life. You stand completely alone, never asking, never begging, never seeking truth, because truth does not come to the seeker. You cannot invite it. It is like the wind, or the breezes that come if you leave the windows open - you cannot invite the breeze - and if you are lucky it might come, and I hope you are lucky." (J. K. - Coll. Works V-17, pg. 229)

[3] Following is a message from a prennial teacher that was conveyed to K by Leadbeater which was said to have had a "profound effect" on him, leading him into daily meditation and on to the process which radically changed his life.

Of you we have the highest hopes. Steady and widen yourself, and strive more and more to bring the mind and brain into subservience to the true Self within. Be tolerant of divergences of view and of truth concealed somewhere within it, even though often times it is distorted almost beyond recognition. Seek for that tinest gleam of light amid the Stygian darkness of each ignorant mind, for by recognizing and fostering it you may help a baby brother. To which K said, "It is just what I wanted as I am inclined to be intolerant and not look for the brother." ('K: Years of Awakening' - Lutyens - Pg. 147) I also find myself inclined to being impatient with or intolerant of others.

[4] "People who are sensitive in life may suffer much more than those who are insensitive; but if they understand and go beyond their suffering they will discover extraordinary things." (J. K. - 'Think On These Things' - pg. 204)

[5] "A mind that is crooked cannot understand the Truth. A mind that is complicated, that is full of the knowledge of books, though they have their value, is apt to become crystallized." (J. K. - Early Speech - 'Happiness and Desire' -1928)

"There has to be a brain that is extraordinarily good. But this is not enough. What is necessary to bring about genius? The demand is that there has to be a good brain, capable of sustained argument, a human being who has great affection, Love." (K - 'J. Krishnamurti' - Jayakar - pg. 385)

"You see, a good mind must have compassion. It must have a great sense of beauty and be capable of action.; there must be a relationship which is right. Is it possible to find such minds? Aristotle, Socrates - they had good minds." (K - 'J. Krishnamurti' - Jayakar - pg. 462)

[6] "The purification of the brain is necessary.....Only when the brain has cleansed itself of its conditioning, greed, envy, ambition, then only can it comprehend that which is complete. Love is this completeness." (J. K. - 'K's Notebook' - pg. 9) I would add here from my own experiences that that "completeness", which according to K is Love, is also God. Hence God is Love - Love is God.

[7] "What is important is a radical change in the unconscious.....Then only is there a radical transformation in the total being of man." (K - 'J. Krishnamurti' - Jayakar - pg. 266)

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Sat, 17 Oct 2009.

David Loucks wrote:
Max, Robert Michael is not interested in engaging in a reasonable discussion. He is impervious to reason. His only interest seems to be in propagating his delusion that he has "gone beyond Krishnamurti" and is, himself," truly enlightened". He has crashed many other threads and run a couple of people off this forum. The latest being a poster using the name Charlie Brown.
So far none of the moderators have had the gumption to simply remove Robert Michael's more offensive postings so the disruption continues. Believe me if you engage this guy he will hammer you with his delusions until you are ready to pull your hair out. I have found that it is simply not worth the energy to try to reason with this guy. I know I will probably take some flack for this posting but someone has to stand up to this guy and his delusions.

Hi David,

"People usually adore me or treat me like their divinity, or they hate me. To be a friend is difficult." (J. K. to Pupul Jayakar - 'Krishnamurti: 100 Years' - pg. 132)

Oh how I too know the experience, the feeling, first hand. It goes with the territory and is to be expected. The darkness has hated the Light since the beginning of time. Nevertheless the Light shines on, fully understands, and never hates back, while continually striving to bring some of those other sensitive souls into that Light.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Sat, 17 Oct 2009.

max greene wrote:
To say you feel you're not ignorant is to say that you believe you aren't ignorant. In other words, you don't know for certain. To not know is the very definition of ignorance.

Hi Max,

There was indeed a time I was quite ignorant, Max. Deepy caught up in the long-conditioned self-centered self. A 'self-will run riot', one might say. But upon undergoing a revolutionary awakening experience and years of brain purification I've become a very wise man. And a man who's also full of Love, understanding, compassion, and, above all, PASSION. Passion for that wonderful liberating Truth!
While unfortunately it seems most folks around me are growing too soon old and too late smart.

Where do you fit into the scheme of things, Max?

"Self-knowledge is the beginning of wisdom, and to know yourself is not a miracle or something extraordinary to be learned from a book." (J. K. - 'Coll. Works', V-10, pg. 119)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Sat, 17 Oct 2009.

Fear creates God. If you had no fear you need no God.

Gokul Gopisetti wrote:
Fear creates God. If you had no fear you need no God.

How about - Love realizes, experiences, and even sees God?

"In the flame of Love all fear is consumed." (J. K.)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Phil: Rational and real.

Awareness is touch of what is.

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:
Hi David Loucks, I have had similar experiences with BOB/Robert Michael, but simply removed some of his extra-topical expressions unwarranted comments on others etc from my forum of AWARENESS IN THE WORLD TODAY. But patience is sometimes tested by a few individuals-it is nicely potrayed by you here,,, let us cooperate..

"Control in any form, like suppression, produces only conflict." (J. K.)

And surely not "cooperation." Likewise, endless and idle bantering about the ills of the world serves only to add more poison, or conflict and violence to it.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Robert Michael wrote:
Control in any form, like suppression, produces only conflict." (J. K.)
And surely not "cooperation." Likewise, endless and idle bantering about the ills of the world serves only to add more poison, or conflict and violence to it.
Bob M.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Dear Bob,
I am not controlling anybody. Mudslinging is not permitted in the forum guidelines which I Obey. Nothing personal against anyone. Regards,Krishnan

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:
Dear Bob, I am not controlling anybody. Mudslinging is not permitted in the forum guidelines which I Obey. Nothing personal against anyone. Regards,Krishnan

May I suggest here that you slow down a bit and take a little time to learn how to properly quote and respond to posts? I think it would add to the overall neatness and orderliness of the forum.

Thanks for your consideration, Krishnan.

I find that the integrity of one's inner order is generally reflected by one's outer order, or lack thereof.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Mon, 19 Oct 2009.

With faith fire is kindled, with faith the oblation is offred up. With speech Itestify to faith upon the head of happiness.

Faith, make this that Ihave said dear to the man who wishes to give, dear, O faith, among lavish sacrificers.

We call to faith at morning, to faith near mid day, to faith when the sun sinks down. Faith establish faith in us...

gb
note: morning, mid day, the dusk are allegorical. we call to faith knowingly or unknowingly, however faith has got faith which occupy all..faith is absolute..

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

ganesan balachandran wrote:
Faith establishes faith in us...

Yes, my experience is that it (the liberation of the human-spirit) must all begin with having, and then acting upon, faith, belief, and trust in ourselves. From which eventually the self and all duality and inner conflict fully dissolves and we become a living embodiment of Love and right-action. Or pure Spirit, if you will.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 20 Oct 2009.

Robert Michael is one of the most valuable poster here.
Stop complaining for your own good.

Krishnan you've deleted my post with some beautiful quotes from Spinoza. Doing this, without any warning before or after, just because I was stealing some bandwidth, seemed lame to me.

Peace and be wild!

Love works. Hate just don't work.

Be your own light. Don't look to somebody else.

French Touch wrote:
Krishnan you've deleted my post with some beautiful quotes from Spinoza. Doing this, without any warning before or after, just because I was stealing some bandwidth, seemed lame to me.

Hi F. T.,

I feel he deleted some our our communication without warning or notice simply because they were of a too intimate and tender nature. My experience everywhere is that those who lack love in their hearts will do everything within their power to disrupt the flow of love, truth, and true communion and brotherhood among others wherever they can.

And while surely hatred brings no peace, joy, or happiness to the hater, one hater can indeed destroy much good in the world. And he can make a long lifetime of such activity. But the true self-knower realizes that these kinds suffer and act out of their conditioning, and in most cases will never overcome it. Hence the need for compassion, which is to both deeply understand and love one's 'enemies'.

While always remembering too - but for the grace of fate, there go I.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 20 Oct 2009.

Theresa and Ganesan, Max Greene wrote a very concise, clear and excellant explanation of befief and faith that is posted above. Why can't we discuss that instead of making these declarations of support for faith and belief and I will add hope to this list? All these things are part of our consciousness, or conditioning which is keeping us from seeing what actually is happening now, in the present.

And also when someone says, "It's been my experience" , what does that mean? Nothing really except experience is in the past and therefore part of consciousness and therefore a block, a hinderance to seeing what is now. Experience when used to understand the self is a dead thing. Experience when used to drive a car it is a very good thing. Belief, faith, hope are all escapes from the present and he who doesn't see the present is still living in the past. Obviously. We cultivate belief, faith, hope and god knows what else because we are afraid of reality. We are afraid to look at ourselves as we really are.

Krishnamurti spoke eloquently and often about being inprisoned by our consciousness. And I know it is very difficult to let go of our conditioning, our beliefs, essentially of ourselves, but that is much of what K seemed to be about. And this site is about discussion what K pointed out so could we do that?

I have a couple of quotes from K that I would like to share with you.

"Why do we need faith, why do we need belief? If you observe is not belief one of the factors that separate man from man?"

"A man who believes in God can never find God. If you are open to reality, there can be no belief in reality. If you are open to the unknown, there can be no belief in it. After all, belief is a form of self-protection, and only a petty mind can believe in God. .................... As long as belief exists, there can never be the unknown: you cannot think about the unknown, thought cannot measure it. The mind is a product of the past, it is the result of yesterday, and can such a mind be open to the unknown? It can only project and image, but projection is not real: so your god is not God-it is an image of your own making, an image of your own gratification. There can be reality only when the mind understands the total process of itself and comes to an end. When the mind is completely empty-only then is it capable of receiving the unknown........................ Only when the mind is wholly silent, completely inactive, not projecting, when it is not seeking and is utterly still-only then that which is eternal and timeless comes into being"

Collected Works Vol.VI pages 140, 141, (December 18) Bombay, India 1950, (Both quotes)

This post was last updated by David Loucks (account deleted) Tue, 20 Oct 2009.

David Loucks wrote:
I have a couple of quotes from K that I would like to share with you.

it is the faith you have on JK which makes you quote him. Ask a materialist he will say JK is an agent of capitlaists. In stead of having faith on any one remain just with faith or have faith on nothing. There are certain things which JK says to make people understand and that should not be taken as authority. You throw away the sacred books, bible, bhagavat gita.. that does not mean that they dont reflect truth.
Infact the whole of Bhagavat gita is the question and answer session similar to JK"s sessionand a dialogue with one self. one has to see truth in the false. one student was given a problem on factorization. The answer is within two steps. the student arrived at the answer but kept on factorizing...here there is not even an answer is the answer then faith only runs the whole system.

gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Thu, 22 Oct 2009.

Ganesan, it doesn't matter if I have faith or not. I can say I do or don't have faith, that's not important. What is important is to understand what faith is and to see if faith is a part of conditioning which is keeping us from understanding our lives. Once again, faith is the blind acceptance of something without any supporting evidence. It is much easier and safer to have "faith" than to find out for yourself what actually is. With faith we can't do that. With faith we are accepting what someone else thinks is true.

K never presented a dogma or a "method". He said over and over again that you must find out for yourself. Observe yourself in action without conclusion and without expecting a result. Why is that so difficult for so many to do?

Since this is a site for people who are interested in what K pointed out can we please stay with that and not bring in the old dead things like the bible and gita and so on?

Truth does not come from a book or from a quote. The quotes were to illustrate a point. Isn't truth what is left when all that is false is dissolved away through joiceless observation of our every action and thought? And can you not see that faith, belief, hope and other conditioning is what keeps us from seeing what actually is?

This post was last updated by David Loucks (account deleted) Mon, 30 Nov 2009.