"Instead of addressing heterogeneous crowds in many places and dazzling and confounding them with your brilliance and subtlety, why do you not start a community or colony and create a reference for your way of thinking?"

(J. Krishnamurti, Kinfonet Quote of the day, Dec 02, 2009)

I find this was some excellant advice and direction given to K in the form of a question. Advice we know he didn't take and which I feel was the primary reason for his failure in helping to set anyone "absolutely, unconditionally free" in 60+ years.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 15 Dec 2009.

Bob sent me an email and apologized for putting this topic on here as he thought he was starting his own thread and he said I could delete it since it was not on the topic of my forum. Now I have thought about this and decided to leave it because Kinfonet has no room for new forums anymore put up by individuals, and they are not deleting old forums that have had no comments on them for up to three months. My last objection when I closed the love topic is because I started that topic and it got out of hand and asked it to stop three times before it finally did. Bob was an original poster on here with his own subtopic which was relative to my forum topic, and I think I have some loyalty to his being able to post somewhere. I appreciate his consulting me about it. So post away unless you find a better forum to move this to but if no one gives you permission, I am fine with it. I will not moderate it though.

My question would be what was K?s response to this question and what is confusing is that I don?t read it at the top daily quote as a question to K but from K to someone.

Here is the whole quote. It was indeed a question to K and he answered it. To put the question up alone gave only a very limited prospective by not showing K's answer. This is why it is so important to give specific citations to quotes. By allowing the reader to find the quote being used it allows him or her to see for themselves from what context the quote comes from and to see if the quote was relayed accurately. By not fully citing the quote the poster, in effect, is censoring the reader. Obviously, the poster of the quote can manipulate the discussion by changing the meaning of the quote. If I were moderator of this forum I would ask any poster that didn't adequately cite his reference to do so or I would remove the entire post.

Poona, India | 7th Public Talk 10th October, 1948

Question: Instead of addressing heterogeneous crowds in many places and dazzling and confounding them with your brilliance and subtlety, why do you not start a community or colony and create a reference for your way of thinking? Are you afraid that this could never be done?

Krishnamurti: Sir, brilliance and subtlety should always be kept under cover, because too much exposure of brilliance only blinds. It is not my intention to blind or show cleverness, that is too stupid; but when one sees things very clearly, one cannot help setting them out very clearly. This you may think brilliant and subtle. To me, what I am saying is not brilliant: it is the obvious.

That is one fact. The other is, you want me to found an ashram or a community. Now, why? Why do you want me to found a community? You say that it will act as a reference, that is, something which can be pointed out as a successful experiment. That is what a reference implies, does it not? - a community where all these things are being carried out. That is what you want. I do not want to found an ashram or a community, but you want it.

Now, why do you want such a community? I will tell you why. It is very interesting, is it not? You want it because you would like to join with others and create a community, but you do not want to start a community with yourself; you want somebody else to do it, and when it is done you will join it. In other words, Sir, you are afraid of starting on your own, therefore you want a reference. That is, you want something which will give you authority of a kind that can be carried out.

In other words, you yourself are not confident, and therefore you say, `Found a community and I will join it'. Sir, where you are you can found a community, but you can found that community only when you have confidence. The trouble is that you have no confidence. Why are you not confident? What do I mean by confidence? The man who wants to achieve a result, who gets what he wants, is full of confidence - the business man, the lawyer, the policeman, the general, are all full of confidence. Now, here you have no confidence. Why? For the simple reason you have not experimented.

The moment you experiment with this, you will have confidence. Nobody else can give you confidence; no book, no teacher can give you confidence. Encouragement is not confidence; encouragement is merely superficial, childish, immature. Confidence comes as you experiment; and when you experiment with nationalism, wit even the smallest thing, then as you experiment you will have confidence, because your mind will be swift, pliable; and then where you are there will be an ashram, you yourself will found the community. That is clear, is it not?

You are more important than any community. If you join a community, you will be as you are - you will have somebody to boss you, you will have laws, regulations and discipline, you will be another Mr. Smith or Mr. Rao in that beastly community. You want a community only when you want to be directed, to be told what to do. A man who wants to be directed is aware of his lack of confidence in himself. You can have confidence, not by talking about self-confidence, but only when you experiment, when you try. Sir, the reference is you, so, experiment, wherever you are, a whatever level of thought. You are the only reference, not the community; and when the community becomes the reference, you are lost. I hope there will be lots of people joining together and experimenting, having full confidence and therefore coming together; but for you to sit outside and say, `Why don't you form a community for me to join?', is obviously a foolish question.

Tags: authority, certainty, community, security

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This post was last updated by David Loucks (account deleted) Thu, 03 Dec 2009.

Bob, Krishnamurti didn't fail. The failure is in you. Many people go into reading K with expectatioins in mind. They want to be told what to do. They basically want someone else to do the work. We have all been conditioned to expect results proportional to the effort we put into something. When we fail to achieve results and, in this case, not become "enlightened" we get anxious. Understanding what Krishnamuti pointed out is not about results or meeting goals. It is about understanding yourself. Understanding that the I, the center, the ego are inventionts of thought. And that thought and the things that it invents can never, ever know truth. And those who say they know "the truth" and can give it to others are either deeply deluded or they are charlantans who are out to exploit people. This , in my opinion, is why it is so offensive, especially on this site, for anyone to make a claim of "knowing the truth" What do you know? What rubbish!

Some need to point to K as the failure because to do otherwise would require that they look at themselves. Self examinatioin requires that you understand yourself and see that the self is this limited enity that can never touch the timeless, the eternal, truth, god or whatever anyone wants to call it. There are no goals to be met and nothing to become. Until you understand this you will continue to be a prisoner in the cell of your beliefs, hopes and illusions.

Success and failure are two sides of the same coin. When did K ever talk about success except to say how much he deplored the concept of success when applied to understanding the self? When you talk about failure you are only expressing your own conditioning about success and failure and not about anything K did or did not point out. If you do not pursuing success then how can you fail? Was K pursuing any kind of success? I don't think so.

It is the most exhilarating thing to realize that there are no experts or authorities when it comes to seeing what is. Each person must do it for themselves, no one can do it for you. There are no experts, masters or gurus when it comes to realizing "truth". I think most, if not all of us, have had moments where we ended and the truth was there. It is something that comes unexpectedly and without "guidance" from some outside source.

Here I repeat a quote by K that I put up a few days ago that was falsely attributed to something I said:

"You cannot find truth through anybody else. How can you? Truth is not something static; it has no fixed abode; it is not an end, a goal. On the contrary, it is living, dynamic, alert, alive. How can it be an end? If truth is a fixed point it is no longer truth; it is then a mere opinion. Truth is the unknown, and a mind that is seeking truth will never find it, for mind is made up of the known, it is the result of the past, the outcome of time--which you can observe for yourself." Krishnamurti, THE FIRST AND LAST FREEDOM Question and Answers Section 3 pp 150-153:

This post was last updated by David Loucks (account deleted) Thu, 03 Dec 2009.

Thank you David for expressing all that so clearly and lucidly. And for posting K's reply in full to that question.

Hi Dave,I also wish to express my appreciation for your post.thank you!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

The quote is still not complete :

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teach...

I do not want an ashram for the simple
reason that you are more important
than the ashram; I really feel it. The
ashram becomes a nightmare. Sir, what
happens in the ashram? The teacher
becomes important; it is not the
seeker, but the guru who is important.
The guru is all authority, and you
have given him that authority because
the moment you support a guru, you
make him into an authority. Therefore,
when you join these ashrams you are
destroying yourself. (Laughter) Please
do not laugh it off. Look at people
who have come out of ashrams. They are
dull, weary, their blood has been
sucked away, and they are thrown out
as shadows. Self-immolation to an idea
is not finding truth - it is only
another form of gratification. Where
there is search for gratification,
there is no search for reality. So,
you are the only reference, not
another, not an ashram, not a
community. If you want to form a
community for experimenting, it should
not become your reference, for the
moment it becomes your reference, your
authority, you are no longer seeking
truth - you are basking in the
sunshine of another's action. That is
what you want. You all want reflected
glory. That is why you join ashrams,
pursue gurus, form communities; and
inevitably they will fail because the
teacher becomes all-important and not
you. If you are searching for truth,
you will never join an ashram, you
will never have the reference of
another. You will have your own
reference, and you can have your own
reference only when you are very
honest, and that honesty comes only
when you experiment. A man who
experiments and wants a result is
obviously not experimenting. A man who
experiments does not know what is
going to come out. That is the beauty
of experimentation. If you know what
is going to come out of it, you are
not experimenting. So, the difficulty
in having a teacher, a community, an
ashram, lies in this: that you make it
your reference, you make it your
shelter. The guru is not so much at
fault as the follower. You make your
guru your reference, you hand your
life over to him to be told what to
do. No man can tell you what to do. If
he tells you what to do, he does not
know; a man who knows does not know.
Do not seek a reference, do not seek
shelters, but experiment, become
confident; then you will have your own
reference, which is truth. Then you
will be aware that you are the
community, you are your own ashram.
Where you are is very important, for
truth is very near you if you only
look.

As I say : Be your own light. Don't look to somebody else. (I think he said it too ; )

Be your own light. Don't look to somebody else.

This post was last updated by French Touch Thu, 03 Dec 2009.

French Touch wrote:
As I say : Be your own light. Don't look to somebody else. (I think he said it too ; )

Yes, this is definitely a must FT. However, such is the terrible ignorance and darkness of our world that even the very best of souls simply cannot breakthrough without their being in the presence of a bright, shining, and spotless mirror. And deceased gurus, godmen, saviors, world teachers, etc. simply don't fit the bill in this regard, and no matter how brightly they may have once shined.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Fri, 04 Dec 2009.

"Thought is the very denial of love, and it cannot enter into that space where the me is not." - (J. Krishnamurti, Kinfonet Quote of the day, Dec 04, 2009)

A lacking in having a sound foundation of love creates a mind which is bound up in "thought" - self-protective, self-absorbed thought. Which also produces a "me" which simply cannot, under any circumstances, not be.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 15 Dec 2009.

It is the Man who is all this, whatever has been and whatever is to be. He is the ruler of immortality, when he grows beyond everything through food.
Such is his greatness, and the Man is yet more than this. All creatures are a quarters of him; three quarters are what is immortal in heaven.

as long as we are without ego, thought , but with full of love we are that Man....
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Sat, 05 Dec 2009.

ganesan balachandran wrote:
As long as we are without ego, thought , but with fullness of love we are that Man.... gb

Yes, absolutely Ganesan.

"When there is love, self is not." (J. K.)

Have you ever heard it said that ego is to Ease God Out?

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 15 Dec 2009.

With three quarters the Man rose upwards, and one quarter of him still remains here. From this he spreadout in all directions, in to that which eats and that which he doesnot eat..

gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Todays quote
appear to be a contradiction, in the sense to be free from ones thoughts and in a state of dispassion
ate,awareness without any motive is as good as a prayer, like being religious as he mentioned..In the very process of looking, watching, discussing, doubting, questioning, and having no belief or faith, you are already living a religious life.is that state also is not a state of praying, but without motive.

The wagon of transport- oblation is its name- on which the weapons and armour are placed, on it let us place the working chariot and be of good heart all our days.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Mon, 07 Dec 2009.

"War exists because of psychological and economic reasons." (Excerpt from today's quote.)

It might be that the same reason applies both psychologically and economically: Greed.

max

"War exists because of psychological and economic reasons. Until those causes are fundamentally altered, war will exist, and praying for peace is of no value." - (J. Krishnamurti, Kinfonet Quote of the day, Dec 07, 2009)

I see no problem with praying for our inner turmoil (or wars) to be resolved and replaced with a deep and abiding peace of mind. Since if there's ever to be peace or an increase in such a thing on earth it must first begin with ourselves. Of course along with prayer (and meditation) must go the Action of deep, sincere, and honest self-introspection and Change if one is to ever find this peace. And then be truly effective in helping others to also find it.

I find K was too much of a non-understanding 'peacenik' when it came to war or wars. Not that one wishes to see war. But these things all simply have to be as a natural part of the evolutionary process which will eventually bring about genuine peace on earth, in due time and for a time.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 15 Dec 2009.

Robert Michael wrote:
I see no problem with praying for our inner turmoil (or wars) to be resolved and replaced with a deep and abiding peace of mind.

Praying? To whom?

"You can never know what the unknown is because the moment you recognise it as the unknown you are back in the known."

With today's quote in mind, is it possible for consciousness to ever know this moment, to know "now"? It would appear not, as "now" always recedes before consciousness, and remains the unknown.

Yet we are alive now. We can only be alive now, but our consciousness will never know this state.

max

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Robert Michael wrote:
I see no problem with praying for our inner turmoil (or wars) to be resolved and replaced with a deep and abiding peace of mind.
Praying? To whom?

"Prayer, then, is generally supplication, is it not? It is a petition, a demand, a psychological extending of the hand for it to be held, to be filled. And when you ask you receive do you not? But what you get is what you want--it is never what you don't want; so what you get is your own projection. That which you receive in response to prayer is shaped by your own fancy, your own limitation, your own conditioning.The more you ask the more you receive of your own projection, and with that you are satisfied."

J. Krishnamurti New York, 4th Public Talk 25th June 1950.

Basically, prayer is begging a deity, who is an invention of thought, for help. Sort of like asking Santa Claus to bring you something for Xmas. This isn't going to end war. Neither will evolution. We have had 5000 wars in the past 5000 years and we are no closer to ending war today than we have ever been. Understanding the causes of war as they exist in each one of us is the only thing that is going to end war.

To be willing to leave the ending of war to evolution shows a remarkable lack of compassion and understanding of the misery, death and destruction that war brings to humanity. As one who has seen war first hand, I will not settle for waiting for war to end through slow change. And anyway, we may not have the time. Who can doubt that humanity is on the brink of destruction? Our political and social structures are collapsing along with our environmental systems.

This post was last updated by David Loucks (account deleted) Tue, 08 Dec 2009.

Praying is driven by hope and desire. The self is driven by hope and desire.

Who is one praying to? Some authority? Some god one has invented in one's own image?

Is it that humans are SO conditioned to pray that we try to turn praying into something noble - instead of seeing it for what it is - a selfish deluded action towards desire-fulfillment?

Thanks for the quote David. K is right on the ball - as always.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Praying? To whom?

praying for prayer, duty for duty, life to live and all without motive very much possible. Living without thoughts itself a prayer.meditation is prayer.JK points to those who have motive while and for praying.one can pray to the silent self of ones own.
gb

whoever would harm us, whether it be of our own people (thoughts) or a stranger, or someone far away, let all the gods(senses, nature etc) ruin him. My inner armour is prayer.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Wed, 09 Dec 2009.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Praying is driven by hope and desire.

not necessarily...if you are not conditioned to the word, meaning....
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

David Loucks wrote:
To be willing to leave the ending of war to evolution shows a remarkable lack of compassion and understanding of the misery, death and destruction that war brings to humanity. As one who has seen war first hand, I will not settle for waiting for war to end through slow change.

For that only one should be in the state of prayer, even without the thoughts of conflict in us.

gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K is right on the ball - as always

No doubt.. one should not get conditioned and the understanding should not prevent us from further inquiring..
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Robert Michael wrote:
But these things all simply have to be as a natural part of the evolutionary process which will eventually bring about genuine peace on earth, in due time and for a time.

David Loucks wrote:
And anyway, we may not have the time. Who can doubt that humanity is on the brink of destruction? Our political and social structures are collapsing along with our environmental systems.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Wed, 09 Dec 2009.

Ganesan, I am sorry but I have no idea what you are trying to say. If you are trying to establish that prayer has merit I am afraid you have failed to do so. And your rather disjointed and confusing and uncited quotes ain't helping much, buddy.

David Loucks wrote:
Ganesan, I am sorry but I have no idea what you are trying to say. If you are trying to establish that prayer has merit I am afraid you have failed to do so.

definetely not my dear david, understanding jk and living it itself a prayer.When JK pointed out the wars outside and its connections with our inward conflicts, immediately my thoughts ceased (and after that how we are all not able to remain in that).The how has to be found out by each and every one here with all the awareness (mainly of JKs teachings)or even the understanding of everything as clearly as we see a table..If i go wrong you point out and if you go wrong i point out or we are traversing this journey totally freshly.I just posted your quote and Robert Michaels quote simultaneously because both implied the same, a sort of helpless state.if in that stae of unhelpful state if we remain without any reward or hope is as good as prayer or it is prayer.What is the source of that flame of attention?
gb

And your rather disjointed and confusing and uncited quotes ain't helping much, buddy.

I confess they are abstract but they give to me a meaning which focus on the same state of dispassionate watchfullness.and i also understand that they are the source.

i think we all should meet personally.Is JK an end or a beginning?
with love
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Wed, 09 Dec 2009.

"Life itself has no system, for it is always in movement;"

I would say that life is movement, and action. I say this because if there is any gap between life and its movement and action, any difference between them, that gap or difference is time.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Wed, 09 Dec 2009.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Praying? To whom?

God, the Infinite, the Source, the Eternal, the Other, the Sacred, the Beloved, a Higher Power, a Power greater than ourselves, or what ever you might wish to call it, Patricia. That which can only be known and experienced by the heart. That which the mind alone will never grasp, comprehend, nor embody.

"The thing which is timeless is God, or any name you like to give to it; the name doesn't matter." (J. K. - 'C. W.', V-16, pg.-123)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

"You can never know what the unknown is because the moment you recognise it as the unknown you are back in the known." (J. K.)

This sort of quote typifies how K got himself caught up in much counter productive foolishness or monkey-business. Such utterings don't lead others to transformation but appeal primarily to those who are bound up in thought, reason, rationalizations, analogies, and logic, which actually then becomes for them but a shoddy or vain form of religion. Or having 'faith' or a 'belief' in the superior power, cleverness, logic, or intelligence, or rightness of one's own mind, one's own thoughts, one's own ways of self.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

David Loucks wrote:
"Prayer, then, is generally supplication, is it not? It is a petition, a demand, a psychological extending of the hand for it to be held, to be filled. And when you ask you receive do you not? But what you get is what you want--it is never what you don't want; so what you get is your own projection. That which you receive in response to prayer is shaped by your own fancy, your own limitation, your own conditioning.The more you ask the more you receive of your own projection, and with that you are satisfied." (J. Krishnamurti New York, 4th Public Talk 25th June 1950.)

One of K's shortcomings, among several, was his wrong-headed assumption that all prayer is a selfish endeaver. Granted much or even most prayer may be a selfish adventure, the rewards of which are nil, but this is most certainly not the case with all prayer. Genuinely unselfish, effective, and truly life-changing prayer is indeed possible for those with sensitive and sincere minds and hearts. This organismal sensitivity driving them to seek something beyond the universal mediocrity and chaotic and violent status quo. Which if sought with total unselfishness and complete abandon will then be found and one ideally will then go on to develop a harmonious relation with this source of all power, love, knowledge, and wisdom. That which K sometimes referred to as the "Other", the "Sacred", the "Beloved". Though his working relationship with this indescribable and unnamable entitly or power left much to be desired. Likewise K did not differentiate between aspirations of the soul or the heart, which can be pure and wholesome, and ambitions of the mind or the self, which are usually destructive depending on what principle directs the mind. Nor did he give others the time to fully develop or fully become.

David Loucks wrote:
Basically, prayer is begging a deity, who is an invention of thought, for help. Sort of like asking Santa Claus to bring you something for Xmas. This isn't going to end war. Neither will evolution. We have had 5000 wars in the past 5000 years and we are no closer to ending war today than we have ever been. Understanding the causes of war as they exist in each one of us is the only thing that is going to end war.

Those who unwaveringly insist that a deity is an invention of thought will most likely never go beyond the narrrow confines of their own petty, limited, and constricting thought.

David Loucks wrote:
To be willing to leave the ending of war to evolution shows a remarkable lack of compassion and understanding of the misery, death and destruction that war brings to humanity. As one who has seen war first hand, I will not settle for waiting for war to end through slow change. And anyway, we may not have the time. Who can doubt that humanity is on the brink of destruction? Our political and social structures are collapsing along with our environmental systems.

What it's going to take to finally end war and bring peace and true brotherhood to the planet is a final war, probably in the form of a great nuclear conflagration, one that will be far, far greater and more destructive than the sum total of all the wars down throughout the history of man. Mankind has degenerated to the point where he has totally lost his way. His best solutions and answers to his many problems only serve to create more and more problems. There are no longer any workable human answers to the fallen human dilemma. So he continues to be marching blindly onward towards Armageddon. And no one is to blame, it's all simply a natural part of the evolutionary process. All of which is perfectly necessary for the final and ultimate perfection and completion of the human species. And there was no "wrong turn" made anywhere along the way as K wrongly pondered and suggested. Everything, insane and inhuman as it presently is, is quite perfectly in order and right on schedule. To think or even feel otherwise is simply an attempt at playing God, which will sooner or later backfire.

"If man doesn't radically change, fundamentally bringing about a mutation in himself, we will destroy ourselves." (J. K.: 'His Life and Death' - Lutyens)

And since only a few of us are capable of such a radical change and the many are not, destruction is definitely just ahead.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Wed, 30 Dec 2009.