Before I will be off for a few days, I thought of starting a new topic, which could be of interest to others in the forum. I see that in most humans, the intelligence is often fully free from all conditioning, at least for a while or once in a way. Even the highly conditioned intelligence in any body also seems to have a chance to look at its conditioning to get rid of its own conditioning.

I often see that lack of specific meanings for specific words has always obstructed the growth of K's teachings into a scientific and effective formula for the final liberation of intelligence in mankind.

intelligence is the manifestation of the dynamic energy, which is also called awareness and consciousness in its various facets. Though intelligence in various human beings is conditioned in various proportions to various concepts, nevertheless there is some unconditioned part in all, which is the freedom part. When there is no conditioning at all, the intelligence can be said to be totally free, and such a mind alone can look at the world without any bias.

It has become customary, common and usual for the conditioned intelligence to look outside for solutions to end its own conditioning. Because the conditioning, binding or amalgamation of intelligence takes place with a concept derived from external perception or knowledge. Nevertheless, one can't overlook the primary cause of conditioning as only the internal damage or aberration of intelligence.

Keeping this point in view, it becomes abundantly clear that the Intelligence can and has to look inwards and clean or get rid of its own weakness, rather than hoping to de-condition itself by acquiring newer, opposite or external concepts or knowledge. For instance, even after acquiring complete and accurate knowledge of functioning of the brain of its left, right and central (if it is there!) parts, the state of aberration of intelligence may still remain the same.

As the characteristics of the dynamic part remains the same, its performance in different changed areas can't change or alter its basic structure. Behavior is the basic problem of mankind, and accumulated knowledge can't alter the behavior.

Hoping on the old adage that 'knowledge can set man free', has helped accumulation of little precious info too, but mainly mountains of garbage in our brains. It is simply because mere knowledge, however high, deep, broad, strong, long or convincing, can never set mankind's intelligence free. However, most appropriate knowledge even in its lowest quantity, is enough to provide a hint for intelligence to kickstart itself to set itself free from its own bondage of its fragmentation.

Members conversant with, may remember of the old homeopathic dictum 'the magic of minimum dose'.

Following quotes have been taken as specific examples of K?s expression about the inner Freedom.

?....Self-knowledge cannot be gathered through anybody, through any book, through any confession, psychology, or psychoanalyst. It has to be found by yourself, because it is your life; and without the widening and deepening of that knowledge of the self, do what you will, alter any outward or inward circumstances, influences - it will ever be a breeding ground of despair, pain, sorrow.... ( Quote For Dec 01, 2009, Krishnamurti Quote of the Day, Ojai, California USA | 4th Public Talk 24th July 1949 )
....when there is no freedom and you make use of knowledge, you create misery for everybody, whether you are in Russia, in America, in China or anywhere else. I call that mind serious that is aware of the conflict of the known and is not caught in it, not trying to modify it, to improve the known; for on that path there is no end to sorrow and misery...(Quote For Nov 22, 2009, Krishnamurti Quote of the Day, Saanen Switzerland | On Freedom, Talks by Krishnamurti in Europe 1963 )?

Now, I look forward for inputs from other members.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Prasanna P wrote:
minimum dose'.

your minimum dose i feel started working magically. good insight.
gb

Our thoughts bring us to diverse callings, setting people apart; the carpenter seeks what is broken, the physician a fracture, and the learned one seeks who presses Soma.
Oh! drop of Soma flow for Indra

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Tue, 29 Dec 2009.

Erol: Thanks for the update. This is an interesting topic. I wonder if it should not be prefaced by "awareness to conditioning", which is half of being free from it.>

Yes, you're right. Primarily and ultimately, it is the awareness that is fragmented and has lost its natural or stable state.

I think it is a big issue because most of us are not aware of conditioning, let alone be free from it.>

Yes, one sees the need for freedom only when one is aware that conditioning is obstructing or preventing one's complete freedom.

You mentioned in your article that one cannot be free from conditioning through knowledge. But later you speak of "most appropriate knowledge" to kickstart intelligence needed to be free from conditioning. This is correct, but may be worth clarifying a little.>

Let me elaborate. The dynamic intelligence or awareness itself is in the bondage of its habitual, constant and often involuntary activities. It has to become free, by going (?) to the state of inaction (silence). Better term seems to be 'by simply becoming inactive voluntarily for at least a moment.

Mere input of knowledge per se, or even the so called best quality of Knowledge, also can't silence the intelligence. However, the info that 'knowledge can't silence the intelligence', could be the 'minimum knowledge' that may be enough to kickstart the intelligence to begin to 'ponder'. And this 'pondering' isn't the process of thinking, but is the opposite of it, which you may call 'unthinking'.

Since 'pondering' enables complete perception of the situation (without the domination of the earlier knowledge), the response from it actually ends the situation.

The homeopathic concept of the magic of minimum of dose, may help us to understand this problem, at least partly. Let us proceed slowly.
Medicus curat, natura sonat. Firstly, it is a fact that body cures its ailment or disorder with the help of medicine. Secondly, since the ailment also has certain specific parameters and dimensions, appropriate quality and quantity of medicine only can help cure each ailment. Hence, finally it goes to show that excessive and inappropriate medicines can't cure the existing disorder, but can even cause new ailments in the body. As I couldn't recall any other, I have given this comparison, which seems to give the near meaning.

The swimmer in the swimming pool, is perhaps the most near appropriate example that I have given earlier. Thinking, like swimming in the pool of knowledge, is essential but can one be constantly swimming? Isn't it tiring? The problem is that of 'continuous restless and effortful activity of thinking' is resulting in inaccurate perceptions and consequent inappropriate responses. This is causing needless chaos in the world.

I think you mean here that an essential information is needed as a catalyst to intelligence. Sort of like a nutrient in the soil that allows the plants to grow. This notion of catalyst is very powerful to me, because one can see it at work at the cellular level. If the body doesn't have the right kind of food, it cannot function properly, it cannot kickstart its own process of healing simply because it doesn't have the right ingredients, the right building material. So with the mind/brain/body (these are all interdependent).

Yes. Catalyst merely speeds up a process, which anyway would be slowly taking place. However, here the process (of becoming free) hasn't begun at all. Hence, I don't think the term 'catalyst' suits here. But I think, I can understand what you mean and the spirit in your saying so.

Think of this example. When the digestion becomes slow, fasting helps till one gradually one becomes hungry. But in Ayurveda, there is a medicine like Hingwastaka Churna, which speeds up digestion. It is a catalyst that speeds up digestion, which is going on but slowly.

According to me, and as you may have seen in my TFI, the present human problem of 'involuntary thinking' doesn't seem to be a physical ailment or an organismic disorder. It looks like only a technical flaw, something like voltage fluctuation that is causing an error like the 'calibration error' that we see in some measuring instruments.

If the free part of intelligence becomes silent first, it begins to observe the activity of its own break away or fragmented part, thus ending first its influence or domination and finally ending it completely. What is left finally is one single and unfragmented intelligence. There is no freedom other than that.

Let us discuss further, if this isn't clear.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

ganesan balachandran wrote:
Our thoughts bring us to diverse callings, setting people apart; the carpenter seeks what is broken, the physician a fracture >

Yes, it is intellectual and seems right.

...and the learned one seeks who presses Soma. Oh! drop of Soma flow for Indra >

Great ! Tell me where you got this quote.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Rig Veda,chapter realia( a sort of commentary on living)9.112 human diversity: A Hymn to Soma

gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Sat, 02 Jan 2010.

Thanks gb, I got a chance to discuss this point briefly with some one conversant with vedas and upanishads. Some of its several interpretations seem logical. It is true that ancient scriptures identified and described the freedom, which was later even achieved by many by their own kinds of efforts (or effortlessness?). What however has been eluding mankind is the intellectual explanation that is universally understandable and acceptable.
According to me, though the nature of process of thinking is basically the same chemical process in every body, the directions and outcomes of the processes may vary chemically in all as per the different levels of insecurity arising from fragmentation of intelligence, which is the fore runner of every involuntary thought.
However, my take is limited to its earlier or original state of non-thinking or the pure intelligent state, which has to be same and equal in all psychologically normal human beings. And any thought arising from that state has to be voluntary, because there is no motivation that arises only from fragmentation.
I don't think you need to delete this. Those who don't like it would do it.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

The vibrations of the recitations of the hymns from those people cant it be the dose for the whole of humanity.dear prasanna! you have got lot to do through your field. If i can suggest all the vedic gods have a biological psychological analogy which i request if possible to find them.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

gb, my reference of 'magic of minimum dose' was for the minimum amount of knowledge required to understand and eliminate the conditioning of intelligence by concepts. When intelligence becomes free from conditioning of all concepts, mankind would become free even from the concepts of Gods. Isn't it?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

true. Did you see the hindu magazine which talks of the god factor in the brain.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

"One's man's perfection can still save the world."

(Aurobindo)
you , and my quote from veda are microscopic, and the above quote is macroscopic compared to your pointer, yet microscopic considering the whole of the world.

Prasanna P wrote:
I got a chance to discuss this point briefly with some one conversant with vedas and upanishads.

most of them are conditioned. among thenm are there anyone who appreciate JK?
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

ganesan balachandran wrote:
"One's man's perfection can still save the world."

gb, I may not agree with the above quote. You see, if perfection could flow like water from a perfect man to others, then this quote could have been true. What is needed is 'perfect communication' from that perfect man, which alone may bring about a transformation in mankind.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now