Finally, it is reported that the mother earth is physically ill and is in the ICU! A popular columnist in India Today explains it in no nonsense terms. However business managers aren't in any hurry to accept it. http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/76465/Radar/The+earth+in+ICU.html

In sixties, it was a 'Mad, mad, mad world'. Then perhaps it was in late seventies or early eighties that a western magazine found the whole mankind in serious mental sickness. No wonder that invisible (or ignored ?) mental sickness has brought mankind into this physically critical state.

Wasn't K meaning it, when he said that psychological insecurity eventually causes physical insecurity ? There has been hyperactivity of human intelligence causing misuse and overuse of knowledge, due to an aberration in the state of human intelligence. It has caused a kind of involuntary intellectual cannibalism called competition, resulting in this state of the world.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Prasanna P wrote:
Wasn't K meaning it, when he said that psychological insecurity eventually causes physical insecurity ? There has been hyperactivity of human intelligence causing misuse and overuse of knowledge, due to an aberration in the state of human intelligence. It has caused a kind of involuntary intellectual cannibalism called competition, resulting in this state of the world

Hi Prasanna, You have said it so well; yes, hyperactivity is the right word for this abnormal world. It seems that there is a kind of malaria of the mind which keeps it in a state of perpetual fever. One feels so helpless in the face of it. It reminds me of a time some years ago when I was driving to my brother's town and suddenly my car started to speed ahead by itself, totally out of control. The throttle somehow got stuck fully open and I had no control over it. Fortunately the road ahead was without traffic and I turned the engine off and rolled onto a grass verge. That feeling of helplessness is like how I feel in the company of people who are, as you say, caught in this involuntary mind-web. But, unfortunately, I am powerless to turn off the engine that generates their fevered fantasies.

Paul Lanzon wrote:
Fortunately the road ahead was without traffic and I turned the engine off and rolled onto a grass verge.

Hi Paul, Occasionally like this I see some one sharing their feelings with concern.

That feeling of helplessness is like how I feel in the company of people who are, as you say, caught in this involuntary mind-web.

Awareness removes helplessness and brings concern.

But, unfortunately, I am powerless to turn off the engine that generates their fevered fantasies.

I think, first I have to tune my own engine (not turn off!). Perhaps then only I can tell others to tune theirs.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Prasanna P wrote:
I think, first I have to tune my own engine (not turn off!). Perhaps then only I can tell others to tune theirs.

I understand what you mean. I think my meaning was not clearly expressed: it was very imprecisely put. By helpless I meant not being able to communicate on any meaningful level. And who is going to do the tuning? Is there an engine there at all? To see the suchness of things is at the centre of what makes a person whole; in this 'non-state' there is nothing that can be said or need be said. Now how can one communicate this to a mind that is time-bound? That is where one is helpless. But it's not a problem, it's just a fact: one is unable to communicate this thing.

Paul Lanzon wrote:
I understand what you mean. I think my meaning was not clearly expressed: it was very imprecisely put. By helpless I meant not being able to communicate on any meaningful level.

Paul, your expression was very clear and understandable to me, even if you felt it wasn't expressed to your satisfaction. I see your honesty. If you don't mind, let me elaborate my understanding on communication.

Precision and clarity of the matter and the sync in level (or wave length as some people call it) are essential for effective communication. Communication can't be said to be effective until recipients understand, at least intellectually. Intellectual understanding can be with or without acceptance. Intellectual understanding is merely of ideas, whether true or false, and also can be universally acceptable. However, it is possible to understand one without agreeing with.

However, actual understanding is the simultaneous cause and effect of a fundamental change in perception.

And who is going to do the tuning? Is there an engine there at all? To see the suchness of things is at the center of what makes a person whole;

Intelligence in each person has to tune itself. Intellectual understanding can be formally helpful, though not a prerequisite, in the actual understanding of ourselves. To be whole is to be, single minded or without duality.

..in this 'non-state' there is nothing that can be said or need be said.

Yes Paul, You have hit the bulls eye. This is the essential state of meditation of 'I', where nothing can be said or need be said (intellectually). The need of course is found intelligently (natural and unmotivated) and not emotionally (motivated). However from this state, it is always possible for the 'I' to jump in to the swimming pool of knowledge to play with or use the memory to respond (think, talk and act). It can easily return to its 'non-intellectual state' of meditation, at its option and choice.

Now how can one communicate this to a mind that is time-bound? That is where one is helpless. But it's not a problem, it's just a fact: one is unable to communicate this thing.

As said above, the intelligence toggles between its meditation state and the intellectual state. Intelligence rests more time in its meditative state, in psychologically normal beings, whom we call as great men. Where in common people, as it is highly intellectually active most often, in whom the fragmentation level is high, which according to me is due to an avoidable error in upbringing. If you can see my TFI, it will show you the difference.

I don't think it is impossible. Didn't K try to communicate ? Am I not trying to communicate? I think, things are becoming easier. A time may come, a crash course may come, which helps mankind o be free from all conditioning. But for that first the intellectual understanding seems to be essential.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Prasanna P wrote:
A time may come, a crash course may come, which helps mankind o be free from all conditioning. But for that first the intellectual understanding seems to be essential.

So called 'intellectual understanding' is an impediment. Only mind watching brings about freedom.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

What about the action that follows?( definetely not an intellectual process also)
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Dean R. Smith wrote:
So called 'intellectual understanding' is an impediment. Only mind watching brings about freedom.

Dean, Intellectual understanding can be an impediment, only when the statements aren't factual or provable. Like the first or earlier Copernicus Theory or the Geo Centric Theory.

When you say 'mind watching brings freedom', one may intellectually understand that statement. And eventually, one may even attempt and achieve it. What you said is intellectual, meaning that it is comprised of words. Here it isn't an impediment. If it is an impediment, then all of K's teachings could also be so.

If all intellectual understanding were impediments (to actual understanding), mankind wouldn't have grown up so much intellectually. K often said so in his own stride, so that people shouldn't remain satisfied with intellectual understanding. It is the intellectual satisfaction that is an impediment.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

I got this message from phil; Those who are willing to allow me to shift this topic to their forum, may write to me.

phil K 10:39 AM on 01/ 4/2010

I am not sure why you posted this on my forum....it has nothing to do with anything my forum has to do with ..everything i have on here except the daily quotes I wanted to do with the brain...i dont understand why kinfonet doesnt open up other forums....the problem is I am having problems monitoring my forum because I dont have time to read everything...i have deleted two subtopics so far that had no realtionship ...and then bob started the daily quotes forum and apologized but i made a statement and let it go on because kinfonet is getting so limited.....david loucks practically threatened me and told me my address of my house in st george because i wasnt stopping bob ....

just tell me a justification for this subtopic so I can rationalize it...i just cant read all this and keep up with what i want to do....frankly i would prefer to delete it....

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Prasanna P wrote:

Dean R. Smith wrote: So called 'intellectual understanding' is an impediment. Only mind watching brings about freedom.
Dean, Intellectual understanding can be an impediment, only when the statements aren't factual or provable. Like the first or earlier Copernicus Theory or the Geo Centric Theory.
When you say 'mind watching brings freedom', one may intellectually understand that statement. And eventually, one may even attempt and achieve it. What you said is intellectual, meaning that it is comprised of words. Here it isn't an impediment. If it is an impediment, then all of K's teachings could also be so.
If all intellectual understanding were impediments (to actual understanding), mankind wouldn't have grown up so much intellectually. K often said so in his own stride, so that people shouldn't remain satisfied with intellectual understanding. It is the intellectual satisfaction that is an impediment.

Hi Prasanna P,

Let's stay on point, shall we? When You said 'intellectual understanding', it pertained to the teachings of J. K., not theories. So, what is intellectual understanding in that context? Please answer that question.

When you use that phrase pertaining to mind watching, it's a postponement of the action. The words 'mind watching' point. You look or you don't look. J. K. pointed out something obvious about turning facts into ideas. The fact, which is immediate, becomes something to achieve in an imaginary future that never comes. It's based on the desire to remain as we are.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

The word intellect means 'knowledge' and we communicate using that. If there is no intellect, obviously there is no communication. Intellectual understanding amounts only to accumulation of knowledge, as what we have done of K. But K wanted us to understand him actually. I am not seeing any problem with that.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now