Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Religion: Humanity's Bitter Curse

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Sun, 12 Jul 2009 #1
Thumb_avatar Zahira Alaskar United States 5 posts in this forum Offline

Religion demolishes compassion, concentrates wealth and resources in the hands of few, empowers governments, murders dissidents and is judge and jury of all. Religion is humanity?s bitter curse. This is the world we share and if there in truth in JK?s teachings I am that, I am the world. To change that (or is to perceive something different?) the network of the I- Time-Thought dissolves. What emerges? Is it a world without war, division, inequality, slaughter, starvation or is it a person who can live more tranquilly in this insanity?

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Mon, 13 Jul 2009 #2
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Zahira Alaskar wrote:

Religion demolishes compassion, concentrates wealth and resources in the hands of few, empowers governments, murders dissidents and is judge and jury of all. Religion is humanity?s bitter curse. This is the world we share and if there in truth in JK?s teachings I am that, I am the world. To change that (or is to perceive something different?) the network of the I- Time-Thought dissolves. What emerges? Is it a world without war, division, inequality, slaughter, starvation or is it a person who can live more tranquilly in this insanity?


Well, I mean, is religion the cause, or the effect?
If we simply abolish religion, would that really solve the human condition?
You sure ask a whole bunch of questions. Try to find one real good one. ;o)

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Mon, 13 Jul 2009 #3
Thumb_avatar Zahira Alaskar United States 5 posts in this forum Offline

Randal,
If I could reduce it to one question I would. I wanted to know if the teachings can bring about a change in this world, where religion is the seed of violence. Can an individual moving with the teachings discover something new and what would it be?

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Tue, 14 Jul 2009 #4
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Zahira Alaskar wrote:

Randal,
If I could reduce it to one question I would. I wanted to know if the teachings can bring about a change in this world, where religion is the seed of violence. Can an individual moving with the teachings discover something new and what would it be?


yet you suppose that there is an answer that can be reduced down to one? What are you looking for, change in the world or change within? If there were a verbal/intellectual answer that would solve the human riddle, that you so clearly discribe, then you could find the answers in a book. But there isn't, so you can't. But if that is the only way I know of, to find the answers to lifes problems, what do I do? Continue banging my head against the wall? Or stop completely, and look again at my entire approach to life?

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Tue, 14 Jul 2009 #5
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Zahira Alaskar wrote:

Randal,
If I could reduce it to one question I would. I wanted to know if the teachings can bring about a change in this world, where religion is the seed of violence. Can an individual moving with the teachings discover something new and what would it be?


If you notice, in the last sentence, you ask for "something new" to be discribed to you. Do you see the problem with that?
You can reduce it to one question Zahira. What you might find, is that in formulating one very excellent question, the answer comes, naturally.

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Tue, 14 Jul 2009 #6
Thumb_henry Thérèse Doyle Okamoto United States 29 posts in this forum Offline

blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

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Tue, 14 Jul 2009 #7
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Therese Okamoto wrote:

blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven


Did that come from those voices in your head? When they say, "give Randy cash", let me know. ;o)

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Tue, 14 Jul 2009 #8
Thumb_henry Thérèse Doyle Okamoto United States 29 posts in this forum Offline

it is the first of the beatitudes, as i think you might know, maybe, but what does it mean?

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

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Tue, 14 Jul 2009 #9
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Therese Okamoto wrote:

it is the first of the beatitudes, as i think you might know, maybe, but what does it mean?


It sounds like Greek, to me. I don't speak Greek. Do you?

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Tue, 14 Jul 2009 #10
Thumb_avatar Zahira Alaskar United States 5 posts in this forum Offline

Randall,
I think before I begin the practice in these teachings I want a promise of something better than I currently observe. The practice of staying with "what is" in the moment, enough energy for some mutation to occur, will it change this over all state of humanity? If so, it may well be worth the diligence. Or how about the promise of changing the "me"?

Therese, Is the kingdom of heaven on earth? And what is "poor in spirit"?

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #11
Thumb_patricia_-_july_2013_4_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 30 posts in this forum Offline

Zahira Alaskar wrote:
Randall, I think before I begin the practice in these teachings I want a promise of something better than I currently observe. The practice of staying with "what is" in the moment, enough energy for some mutation to occur, will it change this over all state of humanity? If so, it may well be worth the diligence. Or how about the promise of changing the "me"?

Why presume to put conditions on truth? Why presume to be so 'all-important'?

One is either passionate about finding out about truth and life - unconditionally - or one is not.

How can anyone even begin to enter the unknown while carrying projections - or hopes! - of what one will find there.

What 'promise' of 'changing the "me"'? Do you desire a better 'me'? Is that what you think K promises?

And what is 'practicing the teaching'? Does one 'practice' life? When is the real thing?

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Wed, 15 Jul 2009.

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #12
Thumb_henry Thérèse Doyle Okamoto United States 29 posts in this forum Offline

Zahira Alaskar wrote:
Randall, I think before I begin the practice in these teachings I want a promise of something better than I currently observe. The practice of staying with "what is" in the moment, enough energy for some mutation to occur, will it change this over all state of humanity? If so, it may well be worth the diligence. Or how about the promise of changing the "me"?

Zahira dear, you remind me of the old adage "bad things happen when good men do nothing" the overall state of humanity, at this stage of our development, humanity needs a great deal of foresight, all the evidence seems to point to people trying to get away with duping as many people as possible because it proves to be lucrative... its a new thought for me to think of evolution as a mutation which it certainly is, the energy between people who are connecting in ever greater numbers to each other through electronics could be huge... the age of Aquarius is when children come first

how does one practice the teachings? im guessing what is truly unique about JK is you arent allowed to practice, like when Yoda said "there is no try"

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #13
Thumb_henry Thérèse Doyle Okamoto United States 29 posts in this forum Offline

Zahira Alaskar wrote:
Therese, Is the kingdom of heaven on earth? And what is "poor in spirit"?

according to wiki: The word ?kingdom? is a translation of the Greek word basileia which in turn is a translation of the words malkuth (Hebrew) and malkutha (Aramaic). These words do not define kingdom by territory but by dominion. According to C. H. Dodd, the common translation of malkuth with basileia in Greek and hence kingdom in English is therefore problematic; a translation with ?kingship,? "?reign,? or ?sovereignty? should be preferred From a purely etymological viewpoint, the word "basileia" is believed to have derived from the Greek word for base or foundation.[1] Some writers prefer this root definition because it eliminates the confusion with monarchy.

as far as poor in spirit, well... im so glad you asked!

poor in spirit could be poverty being blessed with spirit to compensate for the complete lack of funds

poor in spirit could be a deplorable deficiency of spirit all the while not realizing their foundation is a surplus of spirit or maybe nothing but spirit

poor in spirit could be wealth with the spirit of poverty meaning not highminded lah-dee-dah-dee elitists with superiority issues

my protestant friend said the first literal interpretation is correct though methinks the lady doth protest too much

Randal Shacklett wrote:
sounds like Greek, to me. I don't speak Greek. Do you?

i dont either, however its the king's english at which i am adept

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #14
Thumb_henry Thérèse Doyle Okamoto United States 29 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:
If we simply abolish religion, would that really solve the human condition?

i refer you to MLK's Letter from A Birmingham Jail which in effect says that religion is not actively being humanitarian which is what it is supposed to be, begging the question, why arent people religious?

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #15
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Zahira Alaskar wrote:

Randall,
I think before I begin the practice in these teachings I want a promise of something better than I currently observe. The practice of staying with "what is" in the moment, enough energy for some mutation to occur, will it change this over all state of humanity? If so, it may well be worth the diligence. Or how about the promise of changing the "me"?

Therese, Is the kingdom of heaven on earth? And what is "poor in spirit"?


Ah, I see, you are looking for a promise of heaven. Good luck.

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #16
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Therese Okamoto wrote:

Zahira Alaskar wrote:
Therese, Is the kingdom of heaven on earth? And what is "poor in spirit"?

according to wiki: The word ?kingdom? is a translation of the Greek word basileia which in turn is a translation of the words malkuth (Hebrew) and malkutha (Aramaic). These words do not define kingdom by territory but by dominion. According to C. H. Dodd, the common translation of malkuth with basileia in Greek and hence kingdom in English is therefore problematic; a translation with ?kingship,? "?reign,? or ?sovereignty? should be preferred From a purely etymological viewpoint, the word "basileia" is believed to have derived from the Greek word for base or foundation.[1] Some writers prefer this root definition because it eliminates the confusion with monarchy.

as far as poor in spirit, well... im so glad you asked!

poor in spirit could be poverty being blessed with spirit to compensate for the complete lack of funds

poor in spirit could be a deplorable deficiency of spirit all the while not realizing their foundation is a surplus of spirit or maybe nothing but spirit

poor in spirit could be wealth with the spirit of poverty meaning not highminded lah-dee-dah-dee elitists with superiority issues

my protestant friend said the first literal interpretation is correct though methinks the lady doth protest too much

Randal Shacklett wrote:
sounds like Greek, to me. I don't speak Greek. Do you?

i dont either, however its the king's english at which i am adept


Adept away. ;o)

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #17
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Therese Okamoto wrote:

Randal Shacklett wrote:
If we simply abolish religion, would that really solve the human condition?

i refer you to MLK's Letter from A Birmingham Jail which in effect says that religion is not actively being humanitarian which is what it is supposed to be, begging the question, why arent people religious?


Well, I would just say, that most things in life, for most people, are not what they are supposed to be. What will we do about it? Right all wrongs? Make good, all bad? I refer you to my above quote. My question was, in plain adepted King's English, which came first, the chicken, or the egg? Is mind, controlled/programmed/conditioned, by religion? Or is religion simply a reflection of the human mind, after a series of illusory divisions(ideas)?

This post was last updated by Randal Shacklett (account deleted) Wed, 15 Jul 2009.

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #18
Thumb_avatar Zahira Alaskar United States 5 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia, entering the unknown is quite a fearful action. I think I should have some idea where I will end up. K seemed to promise lots of beauty, love, intelligence in all his writings. Will I end up there is I attend the timeless?

Therese, one is not allowed to practice, yet over again and again, we are given pointers in the teachings about viewing life, the world in a new way, about meeting others without the image, following a thought (feeling) through to its end and news ways to be in relationship with others and nature. That is part of the practice; the rest comes when the pointers have opened the door more fully.

Randall, a series of illusory divisions may be the sorce, indeed!!

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #19
Thumb_patricia_-_july_2013_4_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 30 posts in this forum Offline

Zahira Alaskar wrote:
Patricia, entering the unknown is quite a fearful action. I think I should have some idea where I will end up. K seemed to promise lots of beauty, love, intelligence in all his writings. Will I end up there is I attend the timeless?

Hello Zahira -

Where do people get the idea that K 'seemed to promise lots of beauty, love, intelligence in his writings'? To me, the teaching is about understanding the disorder of humanity, and one's responsibility in that disorder.

Perhaps the reason so few understood K during his lifetime, and since, is that they only bothered to go there because they think there is a promised reward.

Other gurus may promise rewards. K only pointed to truth, and then said: Find out.

If in the early days, when he was still under the influence of the Theosophists, K said things like: 'I want to set mankind unconditionally free', don't forget that he was also conditioned - by the Theosophists, and by his Brahman upbringing. We all have conditioning to understand and deal with - K was no exception. He just found the intelligence to decode it all - totally.

It is in the later teaching that K is at his most austere and clear, and then he is promising nothing, but going deeply into the disorder that humanity finds itself in.

But don't listen to anything said by anyone else - especially me! Find out! :)

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #20
Thumb_patricia_-_july_2013_4_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 30 posts in this forum Offline

Zahira Alaskar wrote:
Patricia, entering the unknown is quite a fearful action. I think I should have some idea where I will end up. K seemed to promise lots of beauty, love, intelligence in all his writings. Will I end up there is I attend the timeless?

Hello Zahira -

Where do people get the idea that K 'seemed to promise lots of beauty, love, intelligence in his writings'? To me, the teaching is about understanding the disorder of humanity, and one's responsibility in that disorder.

Perhaps the reason so few understood K during his lifetime, and since, is that they only bothered to go there because they think there is a promised reward.

Other gurus may promise rewards. K only pointed to truth, and then said: Find out.

If in the early days, when he was still under the influence of the Theosophists, K said things like: 'I want to set mankind unconditionally free', don't forget that he was also conditioned - by the Theosophists, and by his Brahman upbringing. We all have conditioning to understand and deal with - K was no exception. He just found the intelligence to decode it all - totally.

It is in the later teaching that K is at his most austere and clear, and then he is promising nothing, but going deeply into the disorder that humanity finds itself in.

But don't believe anything said by anyone else - especially me! Find out! :)

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Thu, 16 Jul 2009 #21
Thumb_avatar Zahira Alaskar United States 5 posts in this forum Offline

I want to thank everyone for your views and contributions to this topic. I will be traveling several weeks and not have immediate access to the internet. JK has left us in the hands of the ultimate teacher, ?what is?. I look forward to returning to this forum soon.

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Sun, 19 Jul 2009 #22
Thumb_henry Thérèse Doyle Okamoto United States 29 posts in this forum Offline

what it is... what it is...

humanity is bitter because religion is becoming ever less legitimate, even though we celebrate goodness, we cannot quite bring ourselves to bless ignorance, weakness and stupidity, humanity is in a lopsided power struggle between heartless can-do spirit and lost soul needs must, the unwilling dont come out of this in good shape because the willingness is everything

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

This post was last updated by Thérèse Doyle Okamoto Sun, 19 Jul 2009.

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Mon, 20 Jul 2009 #23
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Therese Okamoto wrote:

what it is... what it is...

humanity is bitter because religion is becoming ever less legitimate, even though we celebrate goodness, we cannot quite bring ourselves to bless ignorance, weakness and stupidity, humanity is in a lopsided power struggle between heartless can-do spirit and lost soul needs must, the unwilling dont come out of this in good shape because the willingness is everything

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!


Does that mean that I don't have to water the tomatoes?

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Tue, 08 Sep 2009 #24
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 63 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:
Is mind, controlled/programmed/conditioned, by religion? Or is religion simply a reflection of the human mind, after a series of illusory divisions(ideas)?

programmed by religious scriptures..... controlled by recitations.... conditioned by identification with religion. Is not jk religious( according to his own definitions..)
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Tue, 08 Sep 2009 #25
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
programmed by religious scriptures..... controlled by recitations.... conditioned by identification with religion. Is not jk religious( according to his own definitions..) gb

Yes, but my question was, which came first, the chicken, or the egg?

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Sat, 12 Sep 2009 #26
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 63 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:
Yes, but my question was, which came first, the chicken, or the egg?

According to Stephen Hawking it is theory ( for a physcist). Iam not bringing him as authority.. if the same can be extended for life...it is religious mysticism as scriptures and revelations...
gb
for us it is Jk first . we understood many things clearly only after him....

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Sat, 12 Sep 2009.

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Sat, 12 Sep 2009 #27
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
we understood many things clearly only after him....

So he is our/your light to see/understand "many things"?
If our understanding consists of information/knowledge comparisons, it is not really understanding at all, is it?

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Sat, 12 Sep 2009 #28
Thumb_henry Thérèse Doyle Okamoto United States 29 posts in this forum Offline

be the mystery... meditate!

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

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Mon, 14 Sep 2009 #29
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 63 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:
So he is our/your light to see/understand "many things"? If our understanding consists of information/knowledge comparisons, it is not really understanding at all, is it?

absolutely.......

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 24 Sep 2009 #30
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 3 posts in this forum Offline

Religion without the presence of the immeasurable is just idolatry.

The benediction is where you are

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