Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
Question authority | moderated by Randal Shacklett (account deleted)

psychological authority

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Thu, 05 Nov 2009 #31
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David Loucks wrote:
stick to discussing what K pointed out instead of going off on all these tangents

The only problem there is, no one has deeply understood the things K was pointing out. So to those who have not understood, deeply, i. e. everyone, intelligent discussion is impossible.

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Thu, 05 Nov 2009 #32
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 63 posts in this forum Offline

You please leave the time or transcend the time..
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 05 Nov 2009 #33
Thumb_img001 Dr.sudhir sharma India 32 posts in this forum Offline

Max Sir,

When one starts on the journey of self knowledge, the understading of the origin of inner conflict is the most important.one will come across fear,lonliness, sorrow etc.Having an insight in to these starts resolving them.Then one gets the taste of joy,love etc.

Such joy and love are not dependent on external factors for their existence. They envelop all our activities.Then you love life and living becomes joyful. They actually change the quality of your day to day life.

Understanding conflict,fear, sorrow, desire etc is important in the beginning but you are no beginner,sir.So I wanted to discuss the positive aspects of living with you.For me, these are very fundamental, dynamic and powerful movements of energy.Anything that is more powerful and significant would either be only for the personal understanding of the individual or would turn out to be an intellectual exercise.I would certainly want to know all that you consider important.

Regards !

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Thu, 05 Nov 2009 #34
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 51 posts in this forum Offline

Dr. Sharma,

Are we ever sure that we have a complete understanding of the origin of inner conflict, fear, loneliness, sorrow? I don't feel that I do. We have some insight into these situations, but for me, at least, I'm never totally sure.

But we move on anyway. What are the "positive aspects of living?" One starts to assert and pronounce and immediately sees how foolish this is. Then comes a blank. Then might come love and compassion. Is there an energy in love and compassion? Energy seems to be when there is no choice. There is an understanding that is beyond what we generally think of as "understanding." That understanding, that love and compassion and that energy are all one.

I would hesitate to call the above "important," because that defines and sets it apart, and puts it on an individual, subjective basis. But these are aspects of true living.

I've thought about energy lately. We use terms like "energy field" and we talk of energy. What is energy? I've noticed that energy seems to be when there is freedom, no constraint--but this freedom, no constraint, exists only when one sees that one need not act. Then there is a lightness of being, and this seems to be energy.

max

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Fri, 06 Nov 2009 #35
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 3 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Randal Shacklett wrote:
K frequently stated that he felt as though people took him as another form of entertainment and that his message of 60 years, had failed to free anyone. I did not say that I personally thought K had failed. He freed me.

Randal, is it just me or is there a rather glaring inconsistency with the above statement? You say K failed to free anyone and then you state that he [K] freed you.

I am glad to read, however, that what K pointed out was of some benefit to you. I also feel that I benefited from K's pointing out certain things.

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Fri, 06 Nov 2009 #36
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 3 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Randal Shacklett wrote:
The only problem there is, no one has deeply understood the things K was pointing out. So to those who have not understood, deeply, i. e. everyone, intelligent discussion is impossible.

So if the above statement is true what possible reason is there to have discussion groups, dialogues and internet forums to discuss K's work? And can anyone say for sure that "no one has deeply understood the things K was pointing out"? That's a pretty broad statement about which I have no factual basis on which to disagree or agree.

Let's look at this thing another way. Most of us have been conditioned to resond to life's challenges by trying to acquire knowledge and to possess certain desireable attributes to achieve a particular end or goal. We read K or went to hear him speak and we immediately want to posses this "truth" he spoke of. And yet it seems clear from what K said that truth, or whatever the hell you want to call it, doesn't belong to K, himself, and cannot be aquired or possessed by the individual. It is when the center, the me, the I, all the things that thought has invented end that there is something else. What is there when thought ends and why do we think we have to name it? I don't have a clue.

I am sure of one thing: That anyone, any person, any individual who says that he "knows the truth" doesn't. It is such a foolish and arrogant statement to make.

And last, would you agree that it doesn't matter what or who K was or wasn't but only what he pointed out? By closely watching our thinking we will know whether K was right or not and not by endless debate about who K was. Could we also agree that we need to understand ourselves, how our minds work, our conditioning without worrying about defining what all these words mean as so many on this site, including myself, tend to do?

PS: By the way, you made a very good point about speakers for the foundations giving their opinions on K. I agree. But as far as the KFA is concerned, if you are waiting for Mark Lee, the foundation director, to change.......well don't hold your breath. He has, over the years, fired about everyone who really seemed to have some real interest in K and replaced them with other's who seem clueless about K. That's just my opinion.

This post was last updated by David Loucks (account deleted) Fri, 06 Nov 2009.

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Fri, 06 Nov 2009 #37
Thumb_img001 Dr.sudhir sharma India 32 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Are we ever sure that we have a complete understanding of the origin of inner conflict, fear, loneliness, sorrow? I don't feel that I do. We have some insight into these situations, but for me, at least, I'm never totally sure.

Max Sir,

for me the understanding of inner conflicts involves not stopping to analyse and try fo an understanding but to move on-the slate is clean to receive whatever life is bringing NowThe uncertainity immediately creeps in if the self inteferes(asserts or criticises) to understand the issue verbally.

max greene wrote:
Energy seems to be when there is no choice.

max greene wrote:
What is energy? I've noticed that energy seems to be when there is freedom, no constraint--but this freedom, no constraint, exists only when one sees that one need not act. Then there is a lightness of being, and this seems to be energy.

Sir, if the free flow of energy gets obstructed, then wastage of energy occures.In psychological terms it will lead to conflicts.Then the anxiety, stress, tension,sorrow,fear etc. are the results.There is no freedom in this scenario.

Then what is one to do? The conflicts are the realities for us.You point out correctly that freedom exist when one sees that one need not act psychologically.Observing disorder and allowing free flow of movement of attention is OrderAs more energy is freed from entanglements of conflict, better becomes the flow of energy.As you say,the lightness of being is this energy. Will it make for better understanding if we should consider energy as 'flow' rather than as field or as a state?

Regards !

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Fri, 06 Nov 2009 #38
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 51 posts in this forum Offline

Dr. Sharma,

You write, "for me the understanding of inner conflicts involves not stopping to analyse and try for an understanding but to move on . . ."

Yes, analysis doesn't help at all to remove inner conflict, and one of our biggest mistakes is in thinking that it does. Analysis doesn't help because by thinking about conflicts, by mulling them over in the mind as objects, their existence is not only established and confirmed but their strength is enhanced. (It's the Tar Baby effect.)

Conflict is finally and fully resolved only by its complete abandonment. The source of conflict is in the consciousness, which is the Self and the past. Is it possible to "move on" from the Self and the past--from consciousness? We say this is impossible; we think this is impossible--and so, in saying this and thinking this, we have, indeed, made it so. But true living is possible, and true living is the present, now, untouched and untouchable by the past. You say "The conflicts are the realities for us." I agree. They are the Realities, but they are not the Real! As living beings, we are Real. I would say that when conflict is totally resolved, that which remains will be total energy.

max

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Sat, 07 Nov 2009 #39
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David Loucks wrote:
what possible reason is there to have discussion groups, dialogues and internet forums to discuss K's work? And can anyone say for sure that "no one has deeply understood the things K w

Yes, this is my question. Did you read my inital posting here? I am asking if Krishnamurti himself, would approve of people exchanging informatiopn/ideas/beliefs, in his name? Other than profit and/or self promotion, what possible reason is there for the foundations, and information networrks, doing anything other than protecting Krishnamurti's intellectual property, that is, "the teachings", from exploitation? (as is occuring right now by the very people that are supposed to be "protecting" the message.)

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Sat, 07 Nov 2009 #40
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David Loucks wrote:
PS: By the way, you made a very good point about speakers for the foundations giving their opinions on K. I agree. But as far as the KFA is concerned, if you are waiting for Mark Lee, the foundation director, to change.......well don't hold your breath. He has, over the years, fired about everyone who really seemed to have some real interest in K and replaced them with other's who seem clueless about K. That's just my opinion.

Well, again, this is my real point here. I don't know the personalities involved, but I do understand the phenomenon of personality, itself. And no, I don't hold my breath waiting for the human mind to do anything other than what it does.

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Sat, 07 Nov 2009 #41
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David Loucks wrote:
You say K failed to free anyone

I am saying that krishnamurti himself, felt like he had failed to free anyone. I never met the man, so he could not have known about me.

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Sat, 07 Nov 2009 #42
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 63 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
You--all of us--are living; we are alive now, in the moment. It cannot be otherwise. Our authority is awareness and intelligence in the moment.

I am in the present , all the mechanical activities of my mind stops.
I look into a book which is an authority ,many have said. Iam aware.iam not conditioned to accept it as authority . It is raining outside .It says

He who gives life, who gives strength, whose command all the gods, his own, obey; his shadow is immortality- and death. Who is the god whom we should worship with the oblation?.

It tells nothing.Still the mind is only aware. There is an intuion which reflects the present moment holistically. Iam just sharing with you whom I presume is also in the present.it is raining outside still.

you may ask, why you need it, why you open it. Dont you know this on your own. Then what all we do something without the mind operating, can they be of this quality or different as this present.yes! as you said our authority is awareness and intelligence in the moment. Can we reveal in this forum with that mutation? it is raining still.

with love
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Sat, 07 Nov 2009.

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Sat, 07 Nov 2009 #43
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 51 posts in this forum Offline

Ganesan,

Have you ever noticed how consciousness is the past? Every bit of it. If one is conscious of something, obviously it is already known--and that's the past.

So because we are living, now, in the present, we have to be more than the past. But all of us appear to be bogged down in consciousness and unable to reach the present.

max

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Mon, 09 Nov 2009 #44
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 63 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
obviously it is already known--and that's the past.

Sorry I dont know how to put it, you forget the time as past , present , future. and look without recording.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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