i waited so long for kinfonet to come back and here it is and it has become an unwieldy behemoth, which as you may or may not know, lives in swamp - i want to share JK with the world and i am disappointed with the moderators who are not taking responsibility for their forums, the same topics are being discussed in several places, we need to be looking at other threads where the exact same discussion is taking place, i dont think i should have to answer the exact same sincere inquiry with the exact same opinion in several places, there is going to be some overlap, still, lets look at this, lets pay careful attention... the moderator response (note the root word) should provide clarity, help us to remain READABLE, the moderator response should show that they have been listening and that they understand the message, in other words take the time, because it is a commitment to JK himself that you have made here, otherwise step down from your self-appointed position as arbitrator of JKs philosophy so that someone who is willing to can DO THE WORK so that someone who has never been introduced to JK can come here and choose a topic and read it and understand

we've been back on-line now for June (nothing so lovely as) and in this brief time the forum (not as lovely as too) is out of control. it is not too much to ask for a reasonable exchange of ideas moving progressively toward a modicum of concensus... JK is rich with insight but he is not that complicated, in fact, his whole life seems to be dedicated and committed to the idea that we are all making life way more complicated than it really is, lets reflect that!

it seems to me the profile interview questions have covered the topics best of all, i am wishing i could respond to those responses and inquire further into them since they are so very much more focused

plus i miss the real time chat because it was inspired and it was friendly

worse i have a person following me, so I send them a message thinking they must have some esteem for my writing and they dont answer so now I feel stalked as well. Beautiful.

and, the KFA website has also reviewed Kinfonet if youre interested

i would like to suggest that as a moderator whose topic has already gotten out of hand that you simply create an article and post it, in its entirety, so that it wouldnt have been a waste of time, and send a message to your participants telling them why you cant do the work, or telling them their contribution fits in another forum as well where the same topic is being discussed or telling them you feel the subject has been exhausted and you are writing a truly excellent article and crediting them with their brilliant insights, and BONUS the forum will always be open to new moderators who have truly excellent intelligent questions pertaining to specific points of difficulty with, departure from, or elaboration of JKs life work

PRETTY PLEASE

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

Isn't it interesting that we automatically want to make order out of a world that seems broken. So we invent laws and guide-lines to facilitate our lives. Everytime we think we finally have it worked out, we seem to want to make it better so we make more laws and finer guide-lines. Still no satisfaction, so we go for it again and again. We try so hard to make order out of a universe that is orderly already, and always has been. We think that our thoughts can make order out of disorder, when are very thoughts are disorder.

Someone decides after along time to make a place where K students can chat. Immediatly we want to better it. Our enemy is the "want" the false hope of a better situation that is just around the bend.

What will it take to finally say "We have arrived"?

The great sufferer

.

as i never get what i want, i certainly have no false hope of it after all this time, so i have arrived at a great appreciation of your ability to colorfully illustrate what I had written by demonstrating how easy it is to not speak at what is being said.

those who know me well could tell you automatically wanting to make order is not something i can automatically be accused of, on the contrary... what they could also tell you is that i am a reader, and as a reader i have learned that writing is attempting to convey something and that some of us are better at it than others so that if someone has taken on the task of moderating it would behoove them to take their commitment seriously enough to accomplish what they have set out to do with some standard of excellence

and yes, while the universe has order, are very thoughts are disorder, otherwise JK would never have had a thing to say for himself, and again i appreciate your not so subtle example so beautifully contained within the very phrase as not only "our" thoughts but also our writing is sometimes careless for which while we may or may not feel the need to apologize, but which any self respecting moderator would feel the need to rectify, it is not unnatural to "want" some effort, especially, as i said, from self-appointed moderators who have chosen to facilitate the communications herein, nor is it unacceptable to want some of these same moderators to realize they are not up to it and to hope that they might yield the floor, such as it is

while im sure you know i do not feel it is either my place or my intent to lay down the law, bare criticism isnt helpful and when one is aware of some possibility for improvement and finds a way to not only appreciate but also emulate JK in what is afterall his website then we will all of us together actually have a better situation here, especially in the matter of flooding the forum with topics which overlap and therefore deprive the users who do not have the time or the energy to moderate of the varied range of ideas herein pertinent to the topic which they have chosen to give their attention to because the same topic is being addressed in several forums simultaneously

i certainly didnt decide after a long time to make a place where K students can chat i was in fact deploring that kinonet used to have a place where people who share a passion for JK could chat and now it is gone, as to immediately wanting to better it, geez there are already 2000 posts written here, it is never too soon to begin threshing and it may already be too late, the flooding of information is a proven viable form of disabling intelligence, im sure our aim here is to enable it

i actually dont know of anyone who believes that have finally worked it all out unless it is you as i have noticed that one of the most common defense mechanisms is heedless projection, i.e., most of our language tells us more about ourselves, which is why i pray that those who believe they have any sort of affinity for JK at all will arrive at trying to be true to his calling because his language tells us as much about ourselves as it does about him, that is a gift only a true and excellent listener can bestow

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

I love your crazy, mixed up sign, Ken.

I was never on the K forum before so have nothing to compare this one with.

Seems to me, though, that there are many different ways of understanding ourselves and our circumstances. Maybe that's why I love your crazy, mixed up sign, Ken. Seems to allow us to come together to try to understand the same material in whichever way works best for us.

Seems to me that some topics are geared more toward debate than exploration. Some more focused on the topic than others. Some more open-minded than others. Consequently, I find that there are some I'm drawn to, and others I avoid (like the plague!!!). While it is true that some are discussing the same topics, it has been my experience that each has something unique to contribute.

It's actually a blessing for me not to have anything to compare this forum to. Instead of being better or worse than some other . . . it is what it is.

I am sad, though, Therese, that you are so frustrated with the forum the way it is. Frustration can be such an energy zapper (and, if I had another forum to compare this one with, I might very well be just as frustrated as you are). Like you, Therese, I thought those profile interview questions were great and MOST WORTHY of further exploration. Would you ever consider moderating a topic like that, Therese??? I bet I'm not the only one who would thoroughly appreciate and benefit from having you put your suggestions into practice in that way.

Linda Thorlakson wrote:
I am sad, though, Therese, that you are so frustrated with the forum the way it is

I see the fire of discontent in therese, rather than frustration. It is an energy zapper only if there is no action. Kaizen, the japanese quality principle looks at small incremental improvements coming contributing to a big change over a period of time.

There is a certain beauty associated with conditioning.

But I always feel as though I need a compass to navigate this place.

This post was last updated by Ken B Tue, 30 Jun 2009.

Keshni Sahni wrote:
see the fire of discontent in therese, rather than frustration

"fire of discontent" sounds dramatic but no its just plain old frustration that the people who share my esteem for JK are unwilling or unable to be careful of his reputation by making his website user friendly for the the curious, the explorers and the really discontented, perhaps it is asking a lot, im feeling this is how JK felt when he frequently said, words to the effect that, people who heard his message were for the most part unlikely to understand his take on our lot in life

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

Ken B.,

Words are not adequate to express my appreciation for all that you express without them. Not only do I find your wordless contributions to be expressions of fact, but you make me laugh at myself in the process of understanding them.

You remind me that I am far more accessible to the truth when I don't take myself too seriously.

THANK YOU!!!

Therese Okamoto wrote:
just plain old frustration that the people who share my esteem for JK are unwilling or unable to be careful of his reputation by making his website user friendly for the the curious, the explorers and the really discontented, perhaps it is asking a lot, im feeling this is how JK felt when he frequently said, words to the effect that, people who heard his message were for the most part unlikely to understand his take on our lot in life

I'm a little confused, Therese, by whatever it is that's preventing you from engaging in (and engaging others in) user-friendly exploration for the curious and the really discontented in the manner that you describe.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be suffering from (yet very passionate about) your frustration. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way. I AGAIN suggest that you moderate your own discussion topic.

Or . . . you wouldn't even have to do that. There is so much to be explored through this simple topic of frustration with the forum such as:

Why do we suffer from comparing this forum to another?

Why do we suffer from comparing this forum to an ideal forum?

Is "right action" possible through the mere awareness and understanding of our frustration?

What about the relationship of fear to comparison (I only thought of this one because I read something by K yesterday about how comparison of two people/things, or of people/things to an ideal is born of fear).

Regardless of whether you would find any value in moderating your own topic, please forgive me for being so bold as to suggest that you might be wasting your time and energy worrying about K's reputation. I suspect that he might feel less understood by those who hold in it high esteem than by those who have little or no regard for it (of course, just because that's MY understanding of K, doesn't mean it has to be your's).

it isnt a matter of comparison, my frustration is because no one seems to be speaking at what is being discussed, this isnt about how i feel, its about taking responsibility for a discussion and then not taking the responsibility, it shouldnt be remarkable to be a successful moderator, and yet, it is

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

Therese Okamoto wrote:
my frustration is because no one seems to be speaking at what is being discussed, this isnt about how i feel, its about taking responsibility for a discussion and then not taking the responsibility, it shouldnt be remarkable to be a successful moderator, and yet, it is

I think I understand your frustration, Therese, about the topics so easily getting off-track. Even though I make a conscious effort to stay with the topic, I know I have been guilty of steering threads off-track myself.

I suspect that what one person considers to be a successful moderator, another might consider to be ANYTHING but successful. While some might appreciate adhering strictly to the topic at hand, others might appreciate expanding upon it to better understand a particular topic within its larger context.

I'm thinking that maybe it's FAR more remarkable to be a successful moderator than anybody who has never been one (like me!!!) will ever realize. I'm also thinking that us posters can always attempt to bring the discussion back to the main topic by responding to it directly (of course, that doesn't mean we'll be successful, but might be worth a try before abandoning a topic of interest altogether).

My own particular frustration is with those who post a question only to never be heard from again (kind of hard to stay on track when the one who suggested the track in the first place disappears before getting around to laying it).

I wonder if there's a thread anywhere on this site that's actually worth following. I mean, so many replies are non-sequiturs or just derailers. The good thing about being your own moderator is that you can delete those posts and keep the conversation on track. The not-so-good-thing is that no one seems to want to actually do it because so many feelings will get hurt.
"I can't believe you deleted my reply! I really put a lot into it and I really think it was pertinent", etc.

nick carter wrote:
The good thing about being your own moderator is that you can delete those posts and keep the conversation on track.

better than deleting it would be to take the time to reply in kind and call them out on their crap...

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

Sure, if they can acknowledge their crap. Usually they just defend it.

When I go to Discussion Forum, I see a Title, and then a brief introductory description. Then there are various Topics. There is no actual parent-Topic leading to sub-Topics. So I have nothing in the round to discuss other than the very general title and introduction presented by someone who has rights of a moderator. Having read the Forum Title and introduction, I am led to a list of various Topics. Naturally I read the Topics and follow one or more. Each Topic is started independently, and I don't see how a general title and description at the start of a Moderated Forum could possibly pretend to be a serious main point of discussion to follow. The structure as it is has no forum discussion main point, only sub-topics arising from the Title and introductory description. The only way I can follow a main point is when it is presented as a main point in any particular Topic. I am not suggesting there has to be a main point. No, I am saying naturally I would follow a Topic as I find it, as it is shown. I am not going to be controlling whether the Topic is within the scope of the Forum's general title and introduction. For me it is a Topic of discussion, that's all. I didn't invent the format of Moderated Forums, with sub-Topics, so moderators all I can say is delete the entire Topics you don't like. Contributors are quite naturally working with each Topic, well or badly. They have no sense of satisfying the Forum Title and introduction, except to move to a Topic and this is unlikely to be something precise, succinct, unambiguous, in regard to a general title with introduction.

This post was last updated by Peter Stephens Wed, 08 Jul 2009.

Yes, it's an unfortunate arrangement. What's the use of starting a titled discussion if contributors are just going to start their own thread (topic), and that thread may be only tangentially related to the title of the discussion.

I started free-for-all because I know how disjointed and goofy threads tend to be and I figured what-the-hell, let people say whatever they want, regardless of whether any of it even resembles a discussion. Interestingly, people aren't interested. They want a topic to stay with but they want to take it where they think it should go, and it goes to hell. I managed to use "hell" twice in one paragraph.

free-for-all is an excellent idea because then if one wants to express something without inviting a dialogue one has somewhere to write, i used to write JK inspired poetry on kinfonet and was always being kicked off because the moderators were utterly prosaic in their understanding

i think deleting is not a good idea ever, its anti-JK

it would be lovely though, if each moderator deciding when their thread has reached its logical conclusions and writing it up as an essay with all the information, reference, examples, arguments and yes, taking footnote of how the topic is steered into a tangent, why even beginning a new thread based on the incidental, this would give the curious, the unconvinced and the confused a place to realize the fundamentals of intelligence as JK defined them, which doubtless involves excellence of rhetoric

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

And there's no lack of rhetoricizers, is there.

Therese Okamoto wrote:
doubtless involves excellence of rhetoric

To see beauty in the words or the beauty the words point to?

i think deleting is not a good idea ever, its anti-JK
it would be lovely though, if each moderator deciding when their thread has reached its logical conclusions and writing it up as an essay with all the information, reference, examples, arguments and yes, taking footnote of how the topic is steered into a tangent, why even beginning a new thread based on the incidental, this would give the curious, the unconvinced and the confused a place to realize the fundamentals of intelligence as JK defined them, which doubtless involves excellence of rhetoric

Hi Therese,
writing an essay or article about the thread is a fine idea of yours I think.
I´ve often thought that its a pity that the initial thought of a topic gets lost in discussion, is led abroad by the participants , and then the next thread is beginning, without coming to an end with the former, maybe out of frustration.
Though I do not know , once the question is gotten in an other way one had in mind, no one else caught the intention one had to post something, if there is a possibiliy to go on in one´s intended way.
Maybe the spark is lost or one might end up preaching.
As a moderator you have the oppurtunity to go back to your topic if you want to.
I never before participated in a moderated forum, only in open discussion with a topic, usually I am satisfied when anyone is willing to talk at all about something even far related to the topic. Or even talking about anything concerning questions of life to some depth. (Btw. I use "follow this person" to navigate, to find interesting topics again via participants, I hope nobody feels stalked, I´m rather lost in finding something here).
Hope I adressed your topic.

Ute Schoder wrote:
one might end up preaching

this reminds me of something i read once, i cant remember who wrote it but they said "the only thing preaching does is teaches people to preach" ... it might have been kierkegaard

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

this reminds me of something i read once, i cant remember who wrote it but they said "the only thing preaching does is teaches people to preach" ... it might have been kierkegaard

In discussion, when a topic catches you and you go into it without recognizing that nobody is with you , thats what I call preaching. I think its good to write an article in that mood if one is eloquent enough to do so. While talking with one another there should be a resonance with what is said otherwise its senseless to talk .

This post was last updated by Ute S Tue, 14 Jul 2009.

nick carter wrote:
Sure, if they can acknowledge their crap. Usually they just defend it.

even crap gets due process

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

Ute Schoder wrote:
nobody is with you

JK spent his life recognizinng nobody.

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

Peter Stephens asked:
To see beauty in the words or the beauty the words point to?

Y do U ask?

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

JK spent his life recognizinng nobody.

I think he did recognize when nobody listened, but he was not as neurotic as I am, it seems.

This post was last updated by Ute S Wed, 15 Jul 2009.

I'm Nobody! Who are you? Are you ?

Nobody ? too? Then there's a pair of us?

Don't tell! they'd advertise ? you know!

How dreary ? to be ? Somebody!

How public ? like a Frog ?

To tell one's name ? the livelong July?

To an admiring Bog!

im so glad Emily was neurotic!

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

Therese Okamoto wrote:

Ute Schoder wrote:
nobody is with you

JK spent his life recognizinng nobody.

Hey! Lookit me! Lookit me! I'm nobody!

Nice poem.

Regards to nobody.