Why JK's Findings Need To Be Advanced ?

Barring one or more, none of the readers of K, seem to have claimed to have changed or transformed, with their original and independent views. In the physical absence of K, cynicism is rising among younger readers of K about the veracity of the K teachings. In view of the above, this writer considers this topic to be of utmost importance,

1) to keep alive the spirit of K's teachings alive and vibrant,
2) to understand what is absolute and unconditional liberation to mankind,
3) to enable possible realization of JK's objectives, with or without a possible advancement of the teachings,
4) to enable K readers to realize that any interpretation or misinterpretation of K is impossible in these discussions as K teachings are well protected, unlike as presumed to have happened in case of Buddha, Jesus, Shankara and others.

Participants are requested to be accurate, brief and clear as far as possible.
Above mentioned points are merely the guides for posting.
All new and serious readers are invited to participate in this discussion.
K-Quotes may be restricted to one liners as far as possible.
Discussions should be issue based rather than personality based.
If participants have read the author's TFI ( http://naturalmind.org/TFI.pdf ) it helps this writer to save time on repeating his views again.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

This post was last updated by Prasanna P Sat, 29 Aug 2009.

Prasnna`s post is serious and well meant and is comprehensive in its ambititious tasks.
Number2.to understand what is absolute and unconditional liberation to mankind-this provokes me into "thinking" My answer for this point2. is: QUIETITUDE and SURRENDER-Meaning our "restless","ever-thinking" little minds have to go quiet in abeyance with the extraodinary order of the universe and surrender to it with supplication-that is acceptance without resistance-Then probably UNDERSTANDING may dawn upon us.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

"Why JK's findings need to be advanced?"

What findings do you have in mind? Whether JK's "findings" are advanced or not, is it not so that the teachings are alive only when humans see the conditioned mind, and its implications, in each new 'moment'?

Hi Prasanna,

Apparently either you have not read all of my entries herein, or else you're not able to realize that not only am I a radically transformed person, but also, and without any doubt whatsoever in my mind, that I've gone beyond both K and his or the "teachings."

And my realization is that the "teachings" are simply to 'know oneself', which K himself alluded to. And therefore K nor the teachings are not unique at all. But are the Light and the fundamental founding principles of all the great religions and philosophies.

And as I've grown closer and closer to perfect selflessness, I come to see K's "teachings" not so much as to know oneself, BUT BEYOND THAT to find and redevelop LOVE, TRUTH, and UNDERSTANDING in oneself again. Which in a word is what Christ was and tried to make manifest in others. Or for them to 'have life more abundantly', if you will. Which was also the goal of K's, at least in his early and far more powerful and glorious days. Or in his truly Christ or Buddha like days.

And I'll add here that I, like K, know of no one anywhere who has undergone a radical transformation of mind and heart. Though it's my goal to find some sensitive souls and be instrumental in helping them in their transformation.

So it's not K's "findings" or "teachings" that have to be advanced, as you say, but rather it's LOVE, TRUTH, and UNDERSTANDING that need to be advanced. Or more accurately, finally be made genuinely manifest here on planet earth.

Lastly, I remain adamant that unless a person undergoes a "turning point" experience of the very same nature that K underwent back in 1922, he'll discover no new being, nor will he ever come to know the joys of Love either.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Thu, 09 Jul 2009.

What happens when a small group of people come together to inquire into JK's teachings? Many of us in this forum understand that something takes place in our perception as we move through the inquiry, as we probe deeper into the questions. After such an exploration, what has happened? Are we not somehow minutely altered? Does this not then have an effect in our daily lives, in our relationships with those who may not have attended? And is there not then an exponetial effect, however minutely from JK's teachings. Advancing the teachings may not change the political, social, environmental direction of humanity in our life-time. But I have clearly seen some of JK's influence in what has become mainstream thinking today. It has been much like the small waves generated by the pebble dropping in the water. Advancing the teachings perpetuates those waves.

The wish to keep K's writings and messages alive and vibrant is in each and every one of us who has been exposed to him. The bigger problem we face, though, is that in the absence of the originator, K himself, the danger of tainting and bastardizing the message in his writings and speeches grows exponentially with each new reader's/listener's interpretation. K's messages are launching pads for fascinating forays into ourselves and as we watch - truly watch to the extent we are possibly able - partial realizations emerge. It is in these very limited moments of clarity that we think we have found meaning, direction, and perhaps even develop a schematic for living life, when in fact without perfect knowledge or awareness, we have discovered nothing, realized nothing. At this point we ideate and having found a "place" for K's message in our lives, we disseminate it with our personal spins to others hoping to exhibit its vibrance. It just can't be done. It MUST NOT be done.

Other than letting each and every recording, book and essay stand on its own merit without changing so much as a letter, and preserving and reproducing the texts and recordings for all who wish to listen and read, there is virtually nothing we can do. The greatest danger of reading the messages of Krishnamurti is the ensuing dependence on another man. Many carry their favorite K quotes almost as i. d. cards, using them in just the right moments or environs to identify themselves as say, Krishnamurti-ites. This is a deception not only to ourselves but to others who would listen.

The vibrance and alive-ness of Krishnamurti's messages will resonate with anyone who comes in contact with them. If they don't, is there really anything anyone else can do to change that? Let us be very, very careful what each of us does with K's works, forever being mindful they are not there for our use (as in to be used for a specific purpose) but rather as a pointer to no particular destination, and then to be gently laid down and left behind.

Prasanna P wrote:
It seems to be a fact that not a single reader of K is claiming to have changed or transformed. In the physical absence of K, there is a possibility of cynicism arising among younger generation. In view of the above, this writer considers this topic to be of utmost importance,

Apparently you haven't spent much time at the KFA discussion forum. At one time there were five or six people who either claimed or implied that they'd undergone the change, the transformation. But that's beside the point. What if, for instance, I claimed to have changed, transformed? Would you accept it, believe it? I hope not! If I underwent the transformation, the last thing I'd do is announce it.

What would be accomplished by advancing JK's teachings? Is it that one has found something in them and wishes to share with others. Or has one found a way of being in this world that is with less strife, conflict, anxiety, turmoil and wishes to be with others who are also in this way of being? Would advancing the teachings bring about a collective of new like-minds, as we are finding in this forum?

I sent the invite to those who have answered the interview questions or made some postings in some forum or the other. The responses have been varied say some out right rejections to those who are skeptical and even cynical. Now, I have taken only a sentence from those who have responded in the forum only ( and not as personal messages).

I am merely an independent researcher in Psychology, and I don't intend to use these forums for any personal aggrandizement. My intention is to get the best and simple minds among the K readers community for mutual sharing of our perceptions about the objectives of liberation of mankind, particularly to examine 'why it is not taking off'. Needless to state, my Theory of Fragmentation of Intelligence mentioned in my profile, gives an insight in to my own mind, for those interested.

It could be the greatest of good fortunes of mankind, that the Kinfonet and its sponsors have so openly encouraged the spirit of inquiry, perhaps first advocated by K himself. No one needs to agree to what I or anyone says here, but let disagreements be followed with valid issue based explanations.

I have taken only a sentence from each of the contributors, not necessarily the best. I have given a brief answer, which I would elaborate in the days to come.

Krishnan Srinivasan. : Prasnna`s post is serious and well meant and is comprehensive in its ambititious tasks. ........ acceptance without resistance- Then probably UNDERSTANDING may dawn upon us.
Prasanna: : Yes, Krish, probably you have got the intention of my posting. We shall discuss in the coming days, whether acceptance without resistance is again 'wilful', or in that state of mind, simply, there will not be any resistance, which amounts to or taken as 'accepted'.

Richard Kover: What findings do you have in mind?
P: For all that is psychological, the origin is physical. If the origin is normal or natural, the outcome will inevitably be normal.

Robert Michael: ".....you're not able to realize that not only am I a radically transformed person, but also, and without any doubt whatsoever in my mind, that I've gone beyond both K and his or the "teachings."-
P: That is perhaps the problem, Bob. Had you walked together with K, then you wouldn't have found it necessary to go beyond him and his teachings. ;-)

Rick D'Ambruoso: Let us be very, very careful what each of us does with K's works, forever being mindful they are not there for our use (as in to be used for a specific purpose) but rather as a pointer to no particular destination, and then to be gently laid down and left behind.
P: Are you sure K wished so? I remember K saying "use me as a mirror and throw it away after use".

David Loucks: I don't mean to offend anyone but please don't say I have done this and I have done that, achieved this or that and moved on to bigger things.
P: You're right, David. We should do it rather than saying. But, what about the one who doesn't get offended, won't also stop saying or doing?

Zahira Alaskar: What would be accomplished by advancing JK's teachings? Is it that one has found something in them and wishes to share with others.
P: Thanks for your simple and straight question, Zahira. Advancement will enable the fruits of K's discovery to percolate to whole mankind. Yes, obviously when one finds some thing new, has a passion to share with others.

Nick Carter: If I underwent the transformation, the last thing I'd do is announce it.
P: You say this now, Nick. When you get transformed, you won't, but it says.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Prasanna P wrote:
We shall discuss in the coming days, whether acceptance without resistance is again 'wilful', or in that state of mind, simply, there will not be any resistance, which amounts to or taken as 'accepted'.*

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Dear Prasanna,thanks for your response. In the sense of Gandhian non-violence, I agree there could be planned violence in the mind(as Jk often would call non-violence as a form of violence) So acceptance of one´s lot in life without resistance is just taking place for millions in the world, even today, if one keenly observes it.What you term "wilful2 may not be wilful but fate or karma. I have seen leprosy patients in India accepting without resistance the forced conversions into christianity just to please their fellow-men who claim to "heal".There was an episode in the life of Sri Ramana Maharshi of Thiruvannamalai.Robbers came to plunder the ashram where Ramana was and found no money or valuables.They got angry and beat up the Guru without knowing who he was. The inmates wanted to fight back but Sri Ramana pleaded with them not to strike alizing iback.he said that his body needed this beating by the robbers.Later on, realizing the mans greatness, the robbers fell down on his feet and begged pardon. There Ramna said, what is your karma you should accept it and undergo the pains and pleasures of it without questioning. In that sense, it is not"wilful" or "planned" So, come what may, just be quiet and be happy!

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Prasanna P wrote:
P: For all that is psychological, the origin is physical. If the origin is normal or natural, the outcome will inevitably be normal

Conditioned behavior is normal and natural. It also means, inevitably, a life of mechanical repetition, slavery to desire, war, exploitation, regret, fear and sorrow. Did K have 'findings', or did K ask us to look at the origin/basis of this' normal and natural conditioned behavior' to find out for ourselves if that is the only way of life possible for humanity?

If conditioned behavior is normal or natural, then what is that we are trying to change?
I would call all new things said by K, as his findings. The word doesn't matter, as long as we communicate and understand correctly, and we don't denigrate or exploit his name. What do you say?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

David McMullin 02:22 PM on 07/10/2009
When a flower is developing can we say that something has manifested, or is it more accurate to describe the process in more dynamic terms, a growing? I'm trying to avoid thinking of it as an event.
By the way, you're up early! What part of the world are you living in?

I think 'flowering' in K's context is unique and different from what usually grows as a flower from the bud. Be that as it may, according to me a small error in raising babies is depriving the whole of humanity to bloom as a flower.

When you say, it is early, it may show that there is some intellectual (not natural) standard that we are adhering or sticking to. Nature takes its own course and time for anything, because even there, it just happens. Btw, when fragmentation ceases, the externally passing or measurable time has no pressure on consciousness. Isn't it?

For my address, please see my profile and the link to my Theory of Fragmentation of Intelligence and come back if interested in discussing more. Not that you have to agree with me.

Forgive me for replying in the forum, to your private message. As I found too many similar messages in my box, I thought this posting shall answer all other messages too.

Thanks again David.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

firstly, because they do show something, a glimpse of what may lie beyond of ourselves.

secondly, because the world is moving in too many wrong directions, and it need not be so. i have my own pains and suffering, or i see others with their.

and if one is at all concerned about, and wishes to do something about it, and investigates into it seriously, one recognizes that the first thing is to see whether oneself is going into wrong directions. and hence one then realizes that one is actually suffering the same malady as the world, and that it is of primary importance that first one must be sound oneself, before one realizes in what direction the world should go, or what is wrong with it. one also sees that one may need help in this, and the same help must be given to others, because we are all so connected. your unhappiness could have been mine, or will be mine someday, or that of our children. so i cannot ignore anyone's pains any more than i can ignore my own or that of my children.

hence, among all the other things, k's teachings need to be advanced. i help others and others help me.

on a more mundane level, probably its as simple as loving a great piece of art/theater/movie and recommending it to someone else - go, see this, and you may really love it.

Prasanna P wrote:
Robert Michael: ".....you're not able to realize that not only am I a radically transformed person, but also, and without any doubt whatsoever in my mind, that I've gone beyond both K and his or the "teachings."- P: That is perhaps the problem, Bob. Had you walked together with K, then you wouldn't have found it necessary to go beyond him and his teachings. ;-)

Prasanna,

A few months ago while I was participating in the KFA online discussion forum, a man from Germany named Klaus told me that in a secret interlocution between K, Dr. Bohm, and himself (one day before Bohm departed from K), Krishnamurti told them: "Very, very soon someone is coming who is much greater than I am and he will lead you to love and understanding."

I'd be interested in hearing what you or any others might have to say about this, Prasanna.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Fri, 10 Jul 2009.

I am reproducing as a bouquet to the Kinfonet.
Ben Montalbano 09:02 PM on 07/10/2009
Prasanna, Thanks for the link and sharing your theory with me. My assumption in joining this web site was that this might be a discussion where we would explore issues that where shared personal ones and where each participant would inquire into that issue with a void of past knowledge, theories or conclusions. I realize that something like that takes time, effort and commitment. My interest is exploring with an innocent mind and to see where it leads. So I think that my assumption was incorrect and that this forum is something different than what I was looking for. I have spent most of my adult life engaged on a theoretical level and am now looking for something more. Thank you so much for your time, effort and patients with me. Ben

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Robert Michael wrote:
a man from Germany named Klaus told me that in a secret interlocution between K, Dr. Bohm, and himself (one day before Bohm departed from K), Krishnamurti told them: "Very, very soon someone is coming who is much greater than I am and he will lead you to love and understanding."

Bob, I personally feel, not one or two, but there can be thousands, when the functioning of the mind is unraveled scientifically. - P

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Pankaj Sapkal wrote:
hence, among all the other things, k's teachings need to be advanced. i help others and others help me.
on a more mundane level, probably its as simple as loving a great piece of art/theater/movie and recommending it to someone else - go, see this, and you may really love it.

Yes, Pankaj. Gone are the days, when science couldn't unravel some thing for some time, it was dubbed as permanently incapable. If a Theory failed, all Theories were supposed to be cock and bull stories. K has shown the door to freedom and we have to find the keys tp enter rather than philosophizing on it.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Prasanna P wrote:
Rick D'Ambruoso: Let us be very, very careful what each of us does with K's works, forever being mindful they are not there for our use (as in to be used for a specific purpose) but rather as a pointer to no particular destination, and then to be gently laid down and left behind. P: Are you sure K wished so? I remember K saying "use me as a mirror and throw it away after use".

Prasana P:

Thank you for your response to the above portion of my post.

First, I would say that few, if indeed any at all, people in this world, would be able to accurately and assuredly state what it is that Krishnamurti wished. Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, what he wished should be of absolutely no consequence or concern to anyone. As for me, all I KNOW is a man named Krishnamurti lived years ago and somehow, someway, by virtue of having bumped into him through his writings, an inquiry into myself was sparked. That inquiry could only lose its purity and honsety if it constantly looked back toward the man that was, trying to ascertain what it is he would have thought or wished.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Rick

Prasanna P wrote:

Robert Michael wrote:
A man from Germany named Klaus told me that in a secret interlocution between K, Dr. Bohm, and himself (one day before Bohm departed from K), Krishnamurti told them: "Very, very soon someone is coming who is much greater than I am and he will lead you to love and understanding."

Bob, I personally feel, not one or two, but there can be thousands, when the functioning of the mind is unraveled scientifically. - P

I can't agree with you here, Prasanna. Such a view, I feel, springs from wishful thinking or theorizing, rather than it being down-to-earth or practical.

In K's statement, if it is true, which I tend to believe it is, he says some'one' is coming.......Meaning to me one person or man is coming. And from him the flame of love and understanding will begin to spread gradually but eventually to perhaps thousands. And from them to each other of course, though to a lesser extent at first. But it will all begin with one man.

And lastly, I feel science IS NOT going to be involved at all in this greatest of events. If anything science is hindering such a thing, such an explosion of Light, if you will.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Fri, 10 Jul 2009.

Rick D'Ambruoso wrote:
That inquiry could only lose its purity and honsety if it constantly looked back toward the man that was, trying to ascertain what it is he would have thought or wished.

Valid point. I am not looking back for reference. It is only to point out that even K was more open for discussion and advancement than many of his readers. Perhaps you understand that I am talking to a vast diaspora of K readers. There are some who think, that K's teachings can't be advanced at all and he should be left uncommented upon, and only to be read repeatedly. Another class, who ask me often, why I am toeing his line, if I have found some thing new. They even say, if I have found something new, I should be saying altogether a different story from that of K. Some even say, that if there is anything different from K, then it has to be only against K. Such is the conditioning.

When there is something new, particularly in a topic like this on Psychology, it could obviously have many similarities and many contradictions. Even Copernicus had moved from his geo centric theory. This confusion goes on till the findings grow to pristine purity. Inquiry after all can only be serious, I feel.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Robert Michael wrote:
And lastly, I feel science IS NOT going to be involved at all in this greatest of events. If anything science is hindering such a thing, such an explosion of Light, if you will.

Bob, I feel for you. That is why I take time to convince you often. What is science? Science after all is the collection of pure observations or perceptions of the hidden secrets of nature by man. When perception improves, science improves. Don't blow it up too much, Bob. There won't be any explosion of light. Humans will become more gentle. That is all.

Haven't you seen the news reports many years ago, a space satellite was delayed only because a small screw in its remote part was missing? I accept that in the case of humans, the result of this discrepancy has been gigantic. But the cause could be trivial, small or flimsy.

I have been on this for too long today. See you tomorrow. bye.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Prasanna P wrote:

If conditioned behavior is normal or natural, then what is that we are trying to change?
I would call all new things said by K, as his findings. The word doesn't matter, as long as we communicate and understand correctly, and we don't denigrate or exploit his name. What do you say?

Why try to change anything? What happens when we see the nature of conditioning in any given moment and do not react as directed by the self interested thinker?

Richard Kover wrote:
Why try to change anything? What happens when we see the nature of conditioning in any given moment and do not react as directed by the self interested thinker?

Even in 'seeing the nature of conditioning, the purpose and intent is only 'to change' the structure of consciousness from its fragmented state to the unfragmented state.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Prasanna P wrote:
Even in 'seeing the nature of conditioning, the purpose and intent is only 'to change' the structure of consciousness from its fragmented state to the unfragmented state

Purpose implies forethought by the conditioned thinker. Intent implies plan or preconception. So, it seems to me that any change in consciousness based on purpose and intent must still operate within the realm of time, conditioning and division

Richard Kover wrote:

Prasanna P wrote:
Even in 'seeing the nature of conditioning, the purpose and intent is only 'to change' the structure of consciousness from its fragmented state to the unfragmented state

Purpose implies forethought by the conditioned thinker. Intent implies plan or preconception. So, it seems to me that any change in consciousness based on purpose and intent must still operate within the realm of time, conditioning and division

I agree with the points you have made Mr. Kover. As I understand it consciousness is limited. It's content is thought and feeling. So changing it to some other kind of thought and feeling, if not illusional, is certainly pointless.

This post was last updated by David Loucks (account deleted) Sat, 11 Jul 2009.

Richard Kover wrote:
Purpose implies forethought by the conditioned thinker. Intent implies plan or preconception. So, it seems to me that any change in consciousness based on purpose and intent must still operate within the realm of time, conditioning and division

This is where we seem to have erred. This hypothesis doesn't work in Physics. The change in consciousness is at the primary level and is concrete, irrespective of intent or otherwise, because it is physical.
Like, there was an Ayurvedic Doctor here, who used to say, his medicines always worked, whether you have faith in the medicine or not, because medicine is given after accurate diagnosis.

Time, conditioning or division are merely the various forms of thought, which is in the secondary or output level of consciousness. Because, the consciousness is damaged, it is doing this hotch potch work. Even if deliberately, voluntarily and intentionally or otherwise, if we (consciousness) bring ourselves (the consciousness) on natural track, it will have that so called permanent change, thereafter without all these conditionings etc. Have your take. I shall be back in a few hours.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

This post was last updated by Prasanna P Sat, 11 Jul 2009.

David Loucks wrote:
As I understand it consciousness is limited. It's content is thought and feeling. So changing it to some other kind of thought and feeling, if not illusional, is certainly pointless.

David, thanks for your views. It is time to rewrite about consciousness. According to me, the scope of consciousness is unlimited. Because, it is eternal, immeasurable and the same thing is manifest in all of us. Only thing is, it is damaged or fragmented. It doesn't have any contents.

Because consciousness is damaged, it produces thoughts involuntarily to escape from the misery of fragmentation. Of course, changing thoughts is pointless, as it doesn't help consciousness. It is because, the changing thoughts also is done by the damaged or fragmented consciousness.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

I think we have to be very circumspect in applying theoretical physics to biological systems, bringing talk of unlimited consciousness, natural tracks and permanent change into our discussions - presuming, of course, that the basis for our discussion is to bring attention to our behavior in daily life.

These more theoretical considerations may have the appearance of going deeper into the underlying basis of human problems, but I'm not sure they are truly looking at that which forms the basis for war, misery, exploitation and the cruelty mankind visits upon itself and the world.