Mankind's inner freedom appears to be getting depleted, like the ground water levels all over the world. Mankind's rationality is getting reduced. Four plus four is no longer eight, always and everywhere. Many K readers often feel that K should be regarded as 'be all and end all', which K himself had warned against. At this juncture, is it difficult or impossible to try to understand our minds, by taking only the necessary cue from K teachings ?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

One can see many people very clear in their perception without the need of Jk and if you watch many of their clarity will not be holistic. if they are not completely clear, it is also obvious they are also not completely free.This is one thing. Only those people at least from my experience who face lot of unsolvable problem like handicap etc.. with the fear of insecurity find easily the grasp of JK, or those people who see the acute danger for existence of humanity. Inthat process JK's teachings make them holistically clear. however the opposite of false is not completely true. for example thoughts do have its practical place.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without beginning and without an end, will walk together with a greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding there will be true friendship. Because of that true friendship - which you do not seem to know - there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Prasanna P wrote:
Mankind's rationality is getting reduced. Four plus four is no longer eight, always and everywhere.

Sorry to contraire you, Prasanna but even if ?four plus four is no longer eight, always and everywhere? it doesn?t still vindicate that the ?mankind?s rationality is getting reduced? at all.

In my observation of the world development the mankind?s rationality is getting exactly the opposite direction, i.e. side by side with incredible achievements of modern civilization human mind is getting extremely refined, more aggressive, much more perverse in hypocritical inventions in all aspects of human life and all that takes a global character.

Exactly this development is responsible for deep, general crisis on our planet Earth most people can clearly see and speak about nowadays.

nosce te ipsum

ganesan balachandran wrote:
If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient

No, dear ganesan balachandran, it definitely wouldn't be.

A total, global revolution in human mentality must come.

nosce te ipsum

ganesan balachandran wrote:
But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without beginning and without an end, will walk together with a greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding there will be true friendship. Because of that true friendship - which you do not seem to know - there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

Dear G B,

I feel the "desire to understand" alone is not enough here. One must also have the capacity to understand. And it seems to me that many people may have the desire, but very, very few have the capacity. Which has caused all previous attempts at doing the above to fail. Or winding up being but another one of the all-too-many spiritually dead religions, organizations, or fellowships.

Have you any ideas as to how such a body of understanding people can or will be successfully created? It's clear that K failed in his above mission ("my purpose").

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 08 Sep 2009.

Prasanna P wrote:
Mankind's inner freedom appears to be getting depleted

At what point in history, did humanity ever have "inner freedom"? Aren't you the one writing books of theories to explain to us all, what it's all about?

Robert Michael wrote:
I feel the "desire to understand" alone is not enough here. One must also have the capacity to understand. And it seems to me that many people may have the desire, but very, very few have the capacity.

I'm here just to say Hello to my dear friend. Nice to meet you again.

I know you are enlightened.

nosce te ipsum

Randal Shacklett wrote:
At what point in history, did humanity ever have "inner freedom"?

Very good question, Randal, that is exactly the point - 'inner freedom'.

Some beliefs they can get it after physical death, and most thinks they would get it when they kill or put in jail all their enemies.

nosce te ipsum

This post was last updated by Victor Blackbird Tue, 08 Sep 2009.

Randal Shacklett wrote:

Prasanna P wrote: Mankind's inner freedom appears to be getting depleted

At what point in history, did humanity ever have "inner freedom"? >

The inner freedom is the ability or power to judge, which distinguishes man from other animals. This freedom was and is always there. Only thing is it appears to me that it is getting reduced.

Aren't you the one writing books of theories to explain to us all, what it's all about?>

Yes, I have written Theory of Fragmentation of Intelligence . If you read it you will come to know all about it. If you find any point unclear or vague, please come back to me. Not that you have to agree with me. You know even Gandhiji couldn't agree with K.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

This post was last updated by Prasanna P Wed, 09 Sep 2009.

Victor Blackbird wrote:
and most thinks they would get it when they kill or put in jail all their enemies.

Yes, quite, and our "enemies" are everywhere!

This post was last updated by Randal Shacklett (account deleted) Wed, 09 Sep 2009.

Prasanna P wrote:
the ability or power to judge

What poor judges we are then.

Randal Shacklett wrote:

Prasanna P wrote: the ability or power to judge

What poor judges we are then.

...and there is never a freedom in any judgment.

nosce te ipsum

Prasanna P wrote:
If you find any point unclear or vague?

The only vague point is that any theory however clear and clever it might seem to be can never bring understanding and will be inevitably sooner or later beaten by another one. So is the nature of all theories without any exceptions.

Prasanna P wrote:
You know even Gandhiji couldn't agree with K.

If you mean Mahatma Gandhi, of course he couldn?t because he didn?t understand JK. His theory of nonviolent political resistance is not the same as self-knowledge and understanding of JK.

No wonder that Gandhi experienced deepest frustration about results of his revolution until the day he was assassinated.

Victor Blackbird wrote: and most thinks they would get it when they kill or put in jail all their enemies.

Yes, quite, and our "enemies" are everywhere!

They are everywhere indeed, because eventually they are we, ourselves and we create them.

Therefore there is only one way to get rid of them and become really free and this way is not killing or suppression as well as it is not theoretical.

nosce te ipsum

Victor Blackbird wrote:
I'm here just to say Hello to my dear friend. Nice to meet you again.

Nice to hear from you too, my friend. And I hope you are doing well and enjoying your days and your journey.

With awakening, enlightenment, or just plain coming to see the light I find there comes a seemingly never-ending refinement and increase in sensitivity. And this ever-increasing sensitivity, via pain and/or uncomfortability (though these things are not nearly as great as they were in the in the earlier years of awakening), continues to drive me evermore fully out of 'self' and into an evermore-perfect relationship with the Infinite or the source of it all. So I find there's a need to remain serious and ever vigilant and not attempt to rest on one's laurels (which I often did over the years), but, as K said, to be ever so keenly "self-CRITICALLY aware" and quick to change. And here of late, more and more, I am able to feel the tremendous power of love flowing through me, and in a magnitude such as I don't recall ever experiencing previously. At least not with a deep understanding of what was happening. One comes to clearly see how spiritually dead he was throughout nearly his entire life and the reasons for that death or deep, deep sleep, along with having a clear understanding of just how the long and laborious rebirth or awakening process took place.

While a lot of people may have a desire or interest in finding that rare mystical dimension of being, deep down they fear a confrontation with reality and who or what they themselves really are. So instead of embarking on the often painful, but liberating, journey deep into themselves along with fully leaving the security of the known, they avoid this necessary journey through the abyss by turning transformation, enlightenment, etc. into a shallow, unfullfilling, and never-ending intellectual and analytical puzzle while having misconstrued notions of possessing sagacity.

Beware!

Wishing you and yours all the best,

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

ganesan balachandran wrote:
If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient

among 6.5billion people, 5 will listen, how is that sufficient?

the superficiality of existence is thriving

Prasanna P wrote:
Mankind's inner freedom appears to be getting depleted, like the ground water levels all over the world. Mankind's rationality is getting reduced

perhaps there was no "inner freedom" to begin with.

the superficiality of existence is thriving

Monic Devi wrote:
perhaps there was no "inner freedom" to begin with.

Monic, it may be important for us to understand, what we mean by freedom to begin with. The 'all or nothing' hypothesis of K has become an axiom, which is preventing all further discussions. If we didn't have freedom at all, perhaps we won't be here, discussing his teachings. Without freedom, perhaps mankind wouldn't have been able to destroy this earth so much even.
Do you say, we absolutely don't have any freedom at all ? Or do you think, we have some disturbed or polluted freedom ? Isn't the freedom varying in all of us, which has made all of us different in our responses to the same world ? Don't hurry. Think over and answer.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Monic Devi wrote:

ganesan balachandran wrote: If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient.

among 6.5billion people, 5 will listen, how is that sufficient?>

Yes. To begin with, it is enough to keep the spirit of freedom alive and to go on, till they make the whole mankind free some or the other day. For instance, K's expressions may have failed to transform the whole mankind, yet he was a practical living example of an absolutely and psychologically free human being. All great journeys have begun with one small step. Human journey of attaining total freedom has already begun with K. Now all of us have to do something to let it grow. Are we sometimes becoming cynical ?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Victor Blackbird wrote:

The only vague point is that any theory however clear and clever it might seem to be can never bring understanding and will be inevitably sooner or later beaten by another one. So is the nature of all theories without any exceptions.>

Victor, Please don't dismiss all science, psychology and theories per se outrightly, as K did. K often said so to common people, perhaps only to expose the over excitement of scientists, that their excitement on one new finding is going to be only shortlived and it can't be the permanent liberation from sorrow.

Sure, science hasn't grown enough but, we can't say that it won't grow in future. Every new and universally poven finding is that of science. All theories aren't and also can't be beaten, like Theory of Gravity. However, in the case of TFI, I am eager that someone beats it, and I shall be grateful to him.

If you mean Mahatma Gandhi, of course he couldn?t because he didn?t understand JK. His theory of nonviolent political resistance is not the same as self-knowledge and understanding of JK.>

Fine. Though they propounded different theories, what I am wondering is that why G didn't understand K. It is amply clear that K understood G and went on saying that all such exercises have been going waste throughout human history. G advocated some practise which involved effort. K experienced that effortless psychological state and tried to share it, though in vain.

Now the question is whether there is a qualitative difference in the ability of human intelligence to understand more and better things. That is what I am trying to explore. Understanding is an ability or characteristic of intelligence or consciousness. When that ability is more, one understands better. Can you see that difference, in Late Mrs Indira Gandhi appreciating K, and Obama considering G as the greatest. This can't be conclusive as It could also be casual or due to situations or political conveniences or even because G is more popular than K.

No wonder that Gandhi experienced deepest frustration about results of his revolution until the day he was assassinated.>

Wrong direction leads to wrong destination, irrespective of efforts and sincerity of intentions. Questions that arise later are why blame one and why others too do the same again ?

Therefore there is only one way to get rid of them and become really free and this way is not killing or suppression as well as it is not theoretical.>

Quite.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Victor Blackbird wrote:
...and there is never a freedom in any judgment.

That's the point, yes.

Prasanna P wrote:
what we mean by freedom to begin with

Yes, good starting point. Then we walk away.

Monic Devi wrote:
perhaps there was no "inner freedom" to begin with

Perhaps, yes, and that possibility completely destroys Prasanna's theory about life and living. I bet he won't touch it. ;o)

Prasanna P wrote:
Monic, it may be important for us to understand, what we mean by freedom to begin with. The 'all or nothing' hypothesis of K has become an axiom?

Dear Prasanna,

I have been following many of your postages and found out the term ?freedom? you are using is not the same as that one of JK?s.

Your freedom is a conditional freedom, freedom of choice that any human being actually has and anytime uses.

JK conversely is speaking about a special kind of freedom ? unconditional freedom, choiceles, real, absolute freedom which is actually still unknown for most of people but is essential for them to improve radically their being.

If we want to discuss we need to speak the same language. We need to understand clearly the difference in the meaning of words, don?t we?

If someone understands JK as ?hypothesis? and even worse he becomes an ?axiom? -- he is dead for them; there is no point anymore to touch him.

The unconditional, absolute freedom was his real experience, (no trace of theory or hypothesis), it was a real life he was in there and he was talking out about its existence. He talked that freedom was a real nature of any human being and anyone must find himself back to it.

This position should be the bench mark for further discussions.

nosce te ipsum

Victor Blackbird wrote:
Your freedom is a conditional freedom, freedom of choice that any human being actually has and anytime uses.

Yes. In that conditioned freedom, when conditions are removed, only pure freedom is left.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Monic Devi wrote:
Among 6.5billion people, 5 will listen, how is that sufficient?

Hi Monic,

If there were 5 people who in fact had the sensitivity and courage to truly grow in love and understanding I think it would be an excellant start towards creating the long-awaited Golden City of Light. And it was K himself that made that remark about 5 people. Though unfortunately in all his years he was never able to come up with 4 more and create that body of people who would become "The Flame". Instead it seems to me that he played it safe, easy, and rather dumb and wound up building a fairly large global empire that's about as much of a flame as spiritually-dead Christianity is. I think the wrong kinds of friends and their money and support caused him to get off course and go far astray, and really from the very beginning. Seems here that the old boy wasn't quite as wise and "uncorruptable" as he tried to have others believe he was.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Victor Blackbird wrote:
Your freedom is a conditional freedom

Yes.

Prasanna P wrote:
only pure freedom is left

Nice idea.

Victor Blackbird wrote:
Dear Prasanna, I have been following many of your postages and found out the term ?freedom? you are using is not the same as that one of JK?s.>

Victor, you see it is a matter of perception. Some say it is the same thing, while some others say it is not. However, when you go deeply into the issue, you would realize that there can't be two types of freedom.

Your freedom is a conditional freedom, freedom of choice that any human being actually has and anytime uses.>

Answered earlier.

JK conversely is speaking about a special kind of freedom ? unconditional freedom, choiceles, real, absolute freedom which is actually still unknown for most of people, but is essential for them to improve radically their being.>

JK didn't produce this, to call it special. This freedom is as old as mankind. Numerous non-dual teachers have already explained it. That same freedom is presently disturbed, contaminated, divided, fragmented and hence become partial.

What is definitely special about Jk is that in his expressions he was much much clearer than all his predecessors. For the first time, he revealed and showed knowledge its place. Real freedom is freedom from knowledge, he said. This you may call as a paradigm shift brought by K, in the search for freedom.

If we want to discuss we need to speak the same language. We need to understand clearly the difference in the meaning of words, don?t we?>

Yes.

If someone understands JK as ?hypothesis? and even worse he becomes an ?axiom? -- he is dead for them; there is no point anymore to touch him.>

Why do you think these words as derogatory ? I have reproduced the meanings for clarification again.

Hypothesis: 1. a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted merely as a provisional conjecture to guide investigation (working hypothesis) or accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts.
2. a proposition assumed as a premise in an argument.
3. the antecedent of a conditional proposition.
4. a mere assumption or guess.

Axiom: 1. a self-evident truth that requires no proof.
2. a universally accepted principle or rule.
3. Logic, Mathematics. a proposition that is assumed without proof for the sake of studying the consequences that follow from it.

He is an epitome of absolute truth. Like gold, the more you test it, the more it glitters.

The unconditional, absolute freedom was his real experience, (no trace of theory or hypothesis), it was a real life he was in there and he was talking out about its existence.>

His experience of absolute freedom is certainly undeniable. We are talking only about his expressions, that have remained ineffective, because even serious and interested persons are unable to understand and change. We are so much conditioned, that we prefer to adore him, rather than understand him by advancing his findings. He himself had pleaded with us not to parrot him, but to become free.

If a beginning was made in this direction, during his life time, not five, but millions of people all over the world would have been free by now. Numerous wars could have been avoided. Poverty and deprivations would have been found only as words in dictionaries. Happiness would have been in every human being from birth to death.

He talked that freedom was a real nature of any human being and anyone must find himself back to it.>

He was absolutely true. Thanks for your great quote.

This position should be the bench mark for further discussions.>

Yes.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now