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Topic: GoodBy Tue, 15 Oct 2013

Michael Dunne wrote: That is, the minute you open your MOUTH to explain anything you have perceived, You are talking in abstractions, as it is already DEAD.

Spoken words can come out riding on a living movement. Then they lose their reactive essence born out of dead accumulations.

Michael Dunne wrote: So Jean, and all the rest of the knowers, experiencers, I have to leave you now, for there was never any relating, as we were just living in abstractions with all our talking about this and that, all DEAD experiences.

It is sad that you leave with bitterness of criticism in your heart, Michael.

Michael Dunne wrote: And what do you know anyway, “what is there, to know.”

There is only three thinks we can be sure of. 1: There is a FORCE that sustains everything in the universe. 2: There is DEATH of the physical body. 3: That the moment we experience anything it is the past, DEAD.

Michael Dunne wrote: So now Jean, to answer your question: “WHO sees the "illusory self" asking this question?”

Nobody! There never was. All there IS: Is, a living biological entity with a label, continuously experiencing and dying and experiencing.

You did not take into consideration that the LIVING physical body has the potential to have tremendously joyful, colourful and extremely fulfilling limited journey which neither Force nor Death nor CREATION are lucky to be blessed with.

Best wishes!

Topic: Environment/Violence/The Self Tue, 15 Oct 2013

san kim wrote: What's wrong with 'seeing is doing'?

Hi Sam,

Everything if it is a concept/conclusion.

'Seeing is the doing' is a fact to a mind that has wholly come alive. There is no conflict, division or contradiction present in it at any depth. Only 'what is' is flowering in this passively aware mind moment to moment.

Topic: Environment/Violence/The Self Tue, 15 Oct 2013

Katy Alias 2 wrote: A Krishnamuurtian answer to this might be to say that it is possible to see the beauty of for example a flower without possessing or being attached to it...there is a correspondence without the word - transcendent perhaps - in this way...

The above is "seeing without words", Katy, and it has its limitations. The mind would look at anything that is of interest/concern to it with concentration and words are temporarily absent in such seeing(but likely to emerge as soon as mind has a grip on the situation or has had fulfilled its interest).

Katy Alias 2 wrote: I see that when I am not comparing...

But the fact is that one is always comparing/analysing/judging/describing etc. as your following sentences show below:

Katy Alias 2 wrote: the beauty in all - just looking at people can strike me...we are all beautiful, fragile and beautiful...it breaks my heart to be aware of all the needless sorrow/suffering in the world.

It is a bit difficult to comprehend that temporary silence of the chattering of the self is not the absence of the self, Katy. As soon as the attention would waver from observing clearly (that is why it is called partial seeing/perception), the self would restart making comparison, judgement etc.

This superficial silence between thoughts is always sooner or later filled up by uttering of self unless there has been an insight into the structure and functioning of self. This insight brings another kind of silence that is deeper, is not touched by the activities of the self and is responsible for total seeing/perception.

Katy Alias 2 wrote: Whenever I am self-centred I add to the collective plight (war?) utterly negatively.

How does one find out whether the above is just an intellectual projection of an emotional person or clear seeing of a fact inwardly and so, outwardly?

Katy Alias 2 wrote: It might not be possible to attain serenity as an overall characteristic but it is possible to be still in this moment and the next with another and not spoil the time together with so many noisy words...a gentle walk in the rain for its own sake is preferred :-)

Yes, sharpening of the senses and keeping the qualities of the heart alive without greed or compulsion is the right approach to finding what intelligence/love are, Katy.

Regards.

Topic: Environment/Violence/The Self Mon, 14 Oct 2013

Michael Dunne wrote: So when one understands, and sees attachment then there is no attachment, for the seeing is the doing.

Michael, when one sees attachment, then isn't that 'seeing' a reaction to attachment where the motive of 'there would be no attachment because of this seeing' is present?

Is there a seeing which never meets attachment?

Topic: self-image Mon, 14 Oct 2013

mike christani wrote: I think the self image is so obvious, we overlook it in complicating it. One can see it at every turn.

No, not 'see', Mike. The role and activities of self image can be analysed, explained and described after it has reacted to a situation, but to see it in operation is a different matter.

mike christani wrote: But what is necessary?- remaining with it? Seeing the various images we have of ourselves in daily life? Or, and this is where I'm stuck-realizing that 'the observer is the observed' to use the old saying.

Partial seeing maintains duality of observer/observed. Insight into this is possible when mind understands the need to stay empty, but of this 'emptiness' the self is very 'fearful/terrified'.

mike christani wrote: Honestly, I'm afraid to. Yet I feel it would be so easy. I just think it would take me to -depths-or whatnot-that I'm frightened. Because to realize the 'Observer is the obsever' might drastically change me, beyond my depths. The steps so to speak to realize that maybe a little tricky, observing and not moving away to Another observer... but I feel the greatest hindrance in me is fear, this fear of a realization that would take me to unexplored places.

Please don't mind, but all that you have written above are 'projections' of self. All this appears 'real', but 'actual findings' may be totally different.

Topic: There is no Death, Death is an illusion. Sat, 12 Oct 2013

Yogi Irushad wrote: Satya Prakash wrote: Yogi Irushad wrote: We take our Mind/Body entity as real and call and 'feel' as 'me' or 'I'. So suffering follows as they are unreal. Satya : What is "they" in 'they are unreal'? Mind/Body"entity or what we "'feel' as 'me' or 'I'"? Hi Satya, 'They' means everthing one observes, without and within.

So, this reasoning would makes your above statement in bold unreal and a seed of suffering for you and me both, wouldn't it?

Topic: Love, Trust, Integrity... Sat, 12 Oct 2013

Katy Alias 2 wrote: It is also the case, however, that a person who is essentially being honest can be deceived by another's deception.

Yes, Katy, a person who is honest and caring in a relationship would certainly, sooner or later, realise that he/she is being deceived/cheated by other's action. This would certainly cause anxiety, hurt and other emotional disturbances.

Katy Alias 2 wrote: What creates the feelings of hurt, betrayal of trust etcetera?

The incessant thinking, day and night, about the deception/cheating actions of other produces the above emotional reactions. The hurt person may not see this clearly as he/she blames squarely and only the actions of the other for his/her disturbed state of mind, but this is not exactly the complete picture, don't you think?

Katy Alias 2 wrote: Is it the vanity or clinging to an ego/image of oneself as honest that is offended? Is the part that rejects the actor or mask wearer also a mask of sorts?

Yes to both questions, Katy. Approval or rejection based on images of each other between two persons are not fundamentally different in essence.

Topic: Love, Trust, Integrity... Sat, 12 Oct 2013

Katy Alias 2 wrote: What causes people/us to wear masks - some more elaborate than others?

It seems to me that fear is at the root of mask-wearing as with everything.

Mask wearing is usually recognised by one only in others, Katy. Why is this so?

When one lies or changes facts or deceives another, then one is consciously or unconsciously pursuing self gratification or avoiding pain/hurt. Fear may be the cause or the projected effect of such behaviour.

Katy Alias 2 wrote: I guess reading and listening to K raises a person's expectations and hence the conflict, Satya.

Yes, K's words do have this powerful effect (a ray of hope?) on a serious person's mind that state of affairs in relationships in one's world can certainly change for the better!

Topic: There is no Death, Death is an illusion. Sat, 12 Oct 2013

Yogi Irushad wrote: We take our Mind/Body entity as real and call and 'feel' as 'me' or 'I'. So suffering follows as they are unreal.

What is "they" in 'they are unreal'? Mind/Body"entity or what we "'feel' as 'me' or 'I'"?

Topic: Abstractions and Metaphysics Sat, 12 Oct 2013

Yogi Irushad wrote: Mind has created the self.

And what has created Mind, Yogi?

Yogi Irushad wrote: Mind has its inherent attributes.

Like...?

Yogi Irushad wrote: But Ego (Self), Anger and Desire are not inherent qualities of Mind. They are created and acquired by the mind, which are corruptions of the mind.

First a clarification is sought from you. You have used "mind" at three places above as shown in bold. One is spelled with "M" and two with "m". Are you using the word 'mind' in two sense here? If so, then please explain the difference.

Will you explain how both "created" and "acquired" can be used together?

Yogi Irushad wrote: JK saw only the superficial mind, so the depth he could reach is only 'Thoughts'.

You are mistaken here, but this is besides the point and not worth discussing with you as you are already biased in this matter.

Topic: Love, Trust, Integrity... Thu, 10 Oct 2013

Arivalagan S wrote: Hang about doc, I thought you were all against 'control.'

If there was no sane 'control', I would also be wasting my energy like you with J, L L.

Topic: Love, Trust, Integrity... Thu, 10 Oct 2013

Katy Alias 2 wrote: What is Kinfonet right now for the people writing here ? Are you writing/speaking freely in a trusting atmosphere ? Do you feel that your integrity is or has been compromised by others' contributions ? I see how integrity is (also) linked to freedom ie. to the freedom to speak one's mind such as K did.

Hi Katy,

The freedom to say what one wants to say can not be taken away here. Of course, the quality of response would vary from being relevant to the post replied to or topic initiated to being totally irrelevant and irrational.

One also has the freedom to respond or not to any post. One's interest/reason for participation in the forums would decide which posts one chooses to respond or ignores. One can not control what other says, but this does not apply to oneself. Expecting 'love, trust and integrity' from each poster here is a tall order.

Topic: There is no Death, Death is an illusion. Thu, 10 Oct 2013

Michael Dunne wrote: This I would see as an insight. For it was only when they threw the towel in i.e. gave up their resistance to all of the ways they were thinking and subtly trying to find everyway of living without dropping the past, that is hanging on to their old habits, comfort zone that this insight came about. I would have reservations about calling it a spiritual awaking, but the word is not thing.

Michael, people may attribute a change coming in their set behaviour pattern to insight, but the reason/input for the change could have come from different source. The unconscious, being much more powerful, has the power to change conscious pattern of behaviour without taking the credit for the change. An incident seen or described, a documentary seen, some news item read, something said by a person or any such input is captured by the unconscious and that suddenly brings the change in conscious behaviour which may be attributed to insight by the person concerned.

My point is that unless one understands the relationship, if any, between insight (which changes the set pattern of actions) and past accumulations (which control the actions) first hand, what others say about 'insight' would remains only a topic for intellectual discussion.

Becoming free of the influences of the past (self) is what insight is supposed to bring about, but before this could happen, one has to have an understanding of the structure and nature of the self/I/centre that conditions and controls one's behaviour and conduct in daily life. This would require becoming aware of the movement of thought as time/becoming/comparison and also one's reactions to such movement.

It is not difficult to observe the movement of thought if one is attentive, but the problem is that self thrives and flourishes in inattention. So, when one is attentive, the self is not active and when one is inattentive, the self becomes active but then its activity can not be observed. You have any insight that will dissolve this first obstacle in our attempt to understand how insight may come about? :)

Topic: Thoughts... Thu, 10 Oct 2013

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote: This sense of me is very real, the cause is real.However the fact that it thinks that it is an unchanging entity is an illusion.

The "me" appears to be a changing entity because its interests and concerns keep changing, but its basic essence is always the same. It is always trying to control, to judge, to evaluate etc. In this sense 'me' is actually an unchanging entity, isn't it, Kapila?

Topic: There is no Death, Death is an illusion. Thu, 10 Oct 2013

Michael Dunne wrote: However, sound cannot describe that which is really indescribable, we use words to communicate, but we don’t have to live on them. You could go live on a mountain by yourself. But you would still be talking to yourselve, using words. That is,we are the past and we bring it up the mountain with us. There is no escape, only through insight.

You meant "there is no escape, except through insight", didn't you?

There is intellectual understanding of something and there is insight into its nature. Both are "understanding", but there must be a significant difference between the two. Insight frees one from the negativity of the thing while intellectual understanding does not do so, right?

You say that the chattering mind will not stop creating psychological disturbances within except through insight. What gives insight this power (which intellect does not possess) to bring freedom from this chattering, Michael?

Topic: There is no Death, Death is an illusion. Thu, 10 Oct 2013

Michael Dunne wrote: I am suffering, and become aware of it. I enquire into it, and see that psychological thought is creating its own suffering, and that its nature is illusory.

How are you using the word "illusory", Michael?

Topic: There is no Death, Death is an illusion. Wed, 09 Oct 2013

B Teulada wrote: what is it that longs for permanence? it must be pretty well hidden because "I" know it's there, but "I" cannot see it.

The self/I is addicted to problem solving (this is in its nature) and does so with the help of opposites. Seeing death all around, it first invents 'permanency', then longs for it and, sooner or later, starts pursuing it also.

Topic: Thoughts... Wed, 09 Oct 2013

mike christani wrote: I have been thinking, realizing lately...

Several questions come up...

Above two approaches to living/life are good examples of how to postpone action that can change the quality (dullness) of one's life, Mike.

At the age of 58 I have started doing painting in pastel colours from last week. My enthusiasm is that of child who is tremendously enjoying what he is doing. If one really wants to do something, then opportunity does arise. Actions usually get completed if the first step is taken.

Topic: Thoughts... Wed, 09 Oct 2013

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote: Thought is a fact but the 'me' is an illusion thought creates due to its remembrance of the past.Is that correct to you?

Kapila, the "me" becomes operative/active under certain circumstances. There has to be inattention which causes distorted perception of 'what is'. You can say that "me" is a special way/mechanism in which the mind functions and because this way/mechanism exists, it is not right to call it an "illusion". What do you say?

Topic: There is no Death, Death is an illusion. Wed, 09 Oct 2013

Michael Dunne wrote: No, not a typo, this "I" is something within us. There are two "I",the one that is created in time,and identifies with time and image, illusion. The other is truth. Which cannot be named or described in time, as time is illusion. Otherwise, how could it ever come upon itself? It is only through an act of insight that it perceives itself. The problem is that once it manifests in a physical form it proceeds to build a human body, which then becomes fooled by falsely identifying with the external physical world, which it also created and continuously creates. It is here in this dimension that it falsely identifies with its surroundings. So from here on in, that which calls itself ,“I” is illusion.

Insight brings clarity of perception into the nature of illusion/self. This insight is false and a projection of the self if this statement is made "It is only through an act of insight that it perceives itself."

Topic: There is no Death, Death is an illusion. Wed, 09 Oct 2013

Michael Dunne wrote: This force is what says I, through illusion, and this illusion can only broken by an act of perception.

Are "perception of illusion" and "insight into illusion" same according to you, Michael?

Topic: On saying "I Love You" Fri, 04 Oct 2013

mike christani wrote: I've thought of this...Is Love beyond the brain?

mike christani wrote: I just want to expand a little: when I was 20, 21 years ago, the depressing thought came to me that if love is in the brain,...

Hi Mike,

The psychological ups and downs in close relationships are usually responsible for one's losing trust in the existence of "true love" at one time or another. Then new events happen, circumstances change and one's trust in love is reinstated. Has last 21 years been useful in helping you to decide whether love is in or beyond the brain?

Topic: On saying "I Love You" Fri, 04 Oct 2013

B Teulada wrote: Maybe that's true for love too.

Isn't "me" dependent on thoughts for generating all its emotions, B T?

Topic: On saying "I Love You" Fri, 04 Oct 2013

Jack Pine wrote: Does the "I" love?

"I" can do extraordinary things/actions (sacrifice, help, adjustment, co-operation, violence etc) in the name of love, so "I" must be seriously believing that it 'loves'.

Jack Pine wrote: So when people say "I love you" what does that really mean?

It means "By your actions (of body, mind and heart) you are giving 'me' special fulfilment/satisfaction/happiness that is highly pleasurable."

Topic: THE RIVER OF TRUTH Thu, 26 Sep 2013

Tom Paine wrote: Tom: Yes, a continuous process with no accumulation. The moment there is accumulation it becomes knowledge...knowledge which prevents new learning/insight

Tom, are you saying that "learning" has an important role to play in the daily life/living, but fails or loses its essence when it comes to accumulated knowledge (psychological)?

Topic: could we speak about the brain and the mind? Wed, 25 Sep 2013

Dan McDermott wrote: So I can only 'believe' that "Mind" was reflected in K's brain and hence my attraction to his words. But I can't 'know' if this reflection is true since I know nothing of what he refers to as 'Mind', this 'Mind' being outside of my fevered, chock-full, old brain. I 'think' he was in touch but, based on what?

One's 'thinking', obviously, Dan.

K also emphasized "emptying of the contents of consciousness (fevered, chock-full, old brain). What about this?

Topic: could we speak about the brain and the mind? Wed, 25 Sep 2013

Dan McDermott wrote: British English: Compassion is a feeling of pity, sympathy, and understanding for someone who is suffering. How does Mind at the cosmic, universal level manifest this? Perhaps K's definition is different? A human insight,feeling, of sameness? But why attribute this quality to "Mind"?

Passion is generally defined in dictionary as "strong feeling or emotion about a person or thing". The passion makes for suffering and pain in one's life as issues like attachment/possessiveness/ownership would certainly arise in it.

K defines compassion as 'passion for all'. He linked compassion to Mind because only in its universal state the Mind clearly understands that all human beings suffer because they have strong feelings and emotions about people, ideas and things.

The actions of Mind are full of love that is fundamentally different from the love of a divided mind. That is why compassion is wrongly defined as "pity, sympathy, and understanding for someone who is suffering." by the society/dictionary.

Topic: Cult leader Wanna Be Wed, 18 Sep 2013

Jack Pine wrote: Of course I'm speaking of Jean here. He already has Mina, Peter and Dan drinking the cool aid.

No, not Dan. He is too deep to be taken in by Jean's superficiality. Moreover, he has judged Jean in another post in another thread in the wordings which are very unlike that of a follower.

Mina is too deeply anchored in her beautiful world to be influenced by Jean or anyone. Peter will be soon gone (to hibernate for months) before the water becomes really too deep for his comfort level.

Topic: Cult leader Wanna Be Wed, 18 Sep 2013

Mina Martini wrote: there can never be 'following someone' or 'leading someone'.

Actions do speak louder than words. One can twist words to say anything to reinforce one's own idea of "spiritual independence", but it is the quality/depth of one's responses which, sooner or later, bring out the fact of the matter for all (except the ignorant leader and the blind follower) to see.

Topic: ? Tue, 17 Sep 2013

Mina Martini wrote: but what are pure ideas...they come from nowhere, are not thought out..Do we not all know the excitement and energy that 'having a sudden idea coming' is accompanied with?

The excitement and energy arise because one feels that idea put forward is certain to solve the issue/problem. The suddenness is also present in the idea that comes from past accumulations and they do give the impression that it has come from nowhere.

Don't you feel, Mina, that there has to be something more to the idea that is born of an insight?

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