Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Voco .'s Forum Posts

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Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 878 in total
Topic: Is Freedom definitive or Not? Thu, 17 Mar 2016

m christani wrote: I wonder what a cracker looks after being soaked three days in water. No, Voco, I wonder if you have ever felt desperation.

First of all what do you mean? I don't understand you. Second, you don't know what another person went thru his life, I don't know what you went thru too. Third, I'm not saying that is the only cause of despair, but generally it is. There can be many other causes. Just as pain can have many causes, so is suffering. Also, despair is not just a product of your own mind, though it very well may be, it can be also conditions in which one is living.

Topic: The brain has nothing to do with the mind? Thu, 17 Mar 2016

Jean Gatti wrote: In a sense Paul's view is also dogmatic ... he believes in the dogma of thought but does not question its fundamental postulate which is about division/fragmentation of the world ... he sees forms but he does not understand the formless ...

You make absolutely no sense, sorry. I won't go in the details, one who sees will understand what I'm saying.

Topic: Are we starting from the wrong end? Thu, 17 Mar 2016

Juan Eyegaray wrote: I'm afraid that there's some contradiction here ... Are you sure that direct cognition has any relation to reasoning and thinking? ... Are not both the negation of each other?

Of course not, why thinking should be a contradiction if it is clear? Have you ever understood anything subtle without thinking?

Juan Eyegaray wrote: In short: has meditation something to do with knowledge? ... Or in other words, is it possible to get at the insight of another through words describing his or her own meditative experience?

Meditation is surely not of knowledge, but it does not excludes knowledge, because one can learn from knowledge, whether it is right or wrong, not in a sense that the knowledge itself is learning, but by examining knowledge one is seeing where is all the falsities in it.

Topic: The brain has nothing to do with the mind? Thu, 17 Mar 2016

max greene wrote: The problem is, no reply of any kind, no reply however complete and correct, will ever satisfy you. You have an agenda, Paul. You have a single-minded objective which makes conversation with you impossible. You have to dominate, you must have the last word, you just cannot be mistaken in anything that you do.

Well, if doubting and questioning is an agenda for you, then I have nothing to say to you. What is then a conversation to you? To make one accept what you are saying? Paul, instead of you don't make any claims, he questions, his view is scientific, your view is dogmatic.

Topic: Going Thu, 17 Mar 2016

It is a big rarity to meet such intelligent man with a sharp mind as Paul, his doubt simply destroys all the accumulated rubbish. Unfortunately, I haven't noticed on these forums anyone except Paul, who would seriously doubt their own beliefs, who would question, who would be reasonable, logical and sane. What I have seen so far is empty postulates, doctrines, dogmas, a purely synthetic "understanding" which is based on words and their definitions. And the same people condemn you if you question them, if you doubt what they say, if you ask for an argument or a proof they simply tell some bullshit, smoothly switching to other subject.

Pavil Davidov wrote: What I have noted , in particular, is that people stop questioning themselves when they are emotionally invested in an idea, which becomes for them a 'ground zero.'

Exactly.

Pavil Davidov wrote: In India last month we saw some terrible stuff going on. The president of the student Union and India's most prestigious university, JNU, was arrested for making a speech which the extreme Hindu Nationalist government said was anti-national. He was taken to court and in the very court building, right under the noses of the cops, a band of goons dressed in lawyers robes (some of them actual lawyers) beat him mercilessly, kicking and punching and tearing his clothes. Then they attacked students and reporters. The fracas went on for three hours and there were many injuries. No one was arrested. So much for free speech.

This is happening all over the world...

Pavil Davidov wrote: Best wishes to one and all. Take care.

Take care too, Paul. Thanks for dedicating your time for making things clear, which is unfortunately seen here as "competition" or "intellectual battle".

In this week Wim, Huguette and Paul left, which is showing us that there is something wrong here.

Topic: WOOBUSTERS Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Pavil Davidov wrote: A couple of interesting things here, Voco.

Interesting, thanks.

Topic: How I see things Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Pavil Davidov wrote: You cannot know if a snail is aware.

Why? Even a fly is aware, it flies away from your nose when you try to wave it off.

Peter Kesting wrote: No determining factor. As i said i really know almost nothing.

Right, at least you are admitting you are making assumptions instead of claiming that this is a fact as some others are doing here.

Topic: The brain has nothing to do with the mind? Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Pavil Davidov wrote: Oh, they are already doing so. They give a robot a goal and provide it with a certain environment and it goes ahead, experimenting within its environment, to meet the goal. It invents a way without being told how.

I wouldn't call it an invention... I've meant that machines can't invent something like a lamp or a ship. And also it can't be self-sustaining, it always controlled or supported by a man in some way, it's just an extension of man.

Topic: How I see things Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Peter Kesting wrote: Hello Voco, are you interested in exploring this further?

Yes. So, what is the determining factor of "one consciousness" ?

Topic: WOOBUSTERS Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Pavil Davidov wrote: Who wrote

Looks like a New Age stuff... Hmm, I'll give it a shot: Huxley?

Topic: How I see things Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Jean Gatti wrote: Not one 'organism' ... but well one consciousness ... the 'human consciousness' as K said

And what is the common factor for the so called "one consciousness" ? What is it? We again coming back to the idea that consciousness is universal and outside brain.

Topic: The brain has nothing to do with the mind? Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Pavil Davidov wrote: It depends on what is meant by insight.

Well for example how could a machine invent anything? I don't think machines will ever have such a capacity. They might reproduce themselves though (by assembling each other of course).

Topic: WOOBUSTERS Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Pavil Davidov wrote: Vovo, it seems to me that people who devote their lives to longevity, reincarnation, heaven or Nirvana, are not passionately engaged with the life they have. Fear ,may come into it but that is a special case.

Yes, so they are just prolonging their biological life, but they don't even live. By the way, I'm sure you have heard of Ray Kurzweil :) I'm not even sure how to treat it, looks like a semi-Woo.

Topic: How I see things Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Jean Gatti wrote: Beautiful Peter ... and recognizing the very same sentience in another person, beyond all the 'clothings' and 'masks' this person wears, is intelligence ... and also love ... and this is where all the differences and conflicts dissolve ...

Well the fact that our nature is essentially the same viewing from a biological standpoint, doesn't means we are one organism with the one consciousness.

Topic: How I see things Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Peter Kesting wrote: I live in assumptions and so do you.

Well, this is too rude, don't you think? Why live in assumptions, why not live with facts?

Peter Kesting wrote: I am all sentient beings. You are too.

What makes you think so?

Topic: Are we starting from the wrong end? Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Pavil Davidov wrote: When you move from the word to the thing all you are doing is finding justification for the word. When you start from the thing, the thing you are observing, the words flow more naturally.

Exactly. But there is no way we can tell whether what one is telling is based on his experience or it is just words. One doesn't needs to know what is meditation at all, any attempt to define it negates it.

Pavil Davidov wrote: The observer is the observed.

I'm not sure Paul, the more I see this, the more it looks like a meme.

Topic: Hmm... Wed, 16 Mar 2016

max greene wrote: In other words, there was no basis for your post 38. You can't back up what you say.

I'm not even sure there is any basis in what you are saying, you appear to me as a word generator.

Topic: The brain has nothing to do with the mind? Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Jean Gatti wrote: Yes everywhere ... same for awareness ... and mind ...

No.

Topic: The brain has nothing to do with the mind? Wed, 16 Mar 2016

Jean Gatti wrote: Is space inside or outside ? Where is space ?

In everything.

Pavil Davidov wrote: The "absolutely unknown" is a myth.

I would say "unknown" is a relative term. It is unknown until we know it, we cannot even speak of the unknown until we do not know something about it. We can't say "there is something absolutely unknown which I'm going to know", this is a fallacy of course.

max greene wrote: Yes. The same questions are asked of all who do not agree with us and who we can't truly reply to because we have no real reply.

You have no reply, but yet you are making various claims, postulates, assumptions without any proof. You don't say: I don't know, let's explore. You say or at least it seems so to me: I know exactly that it is so.

Ravi Seth wrote: k has at few occasion said he could excess people's mind but he would'nt do it respecting their privacy unless they permit it.

What do you mean by excess people's mind? By confusing them or what?

max greene wrote: What dark matter is we know little about, but in 1700 it is safe to say that it was not even imagined or considered.

There is no past other than the memory, Max.

Pavil Davidov wrote: Are you saying that the human would have some sort of insight into it which a computer, however sophisticated, would not?

I think a machine cannot have insight.

Topic: Hmm... Tue, 15 Mar 2016

max greene wrote: Voco, you appear to me to be deliberately throwing up sand. Tell me exactly what you can't understand about post 36. We can go over it point by point.

Thank you, but no. Take all your rubbish and keep it for yourself, review it, after all, before you try to teach someone, because that's what you do, you are just repeating same things all over and over again like a machine.

Topic: Are we starting from the wrong end? Tue, 15 Mar 2016

max greene wrote: The man who wants to meditate and who wants to know himself and his world is the self. There is no other entity. The self is the thinker, a psychological construct by the brain.

And what? Yes, it is the self. But if there would be no self, you would not even write on this forum. You write plain stupidities Max. Maybe the way you think blocks you from any understanding. You just live in a nonsensical conclusions.

Topic: Is Freedom definitive or Not? Tue, 15 Mar 2016

Huguette . wrote: That's not what I meant. I'm really asking you the question, why is it one is desperate.

Despair is a state whenever one's own hopes, expectations, seeking is not fulfilled. But will that description tell something?

Huguette . wrote: Because for me, being a slave to anger, compulsion, fear, etc. is a fact, and it is not based on an idea that anger etc. is "bad". When I am ruled by anger or fear or compulsion, I suffer.

Why do you think you are a slave to anger, to fear, to compulsion? Will thinking so bring about any understanding?

Topic: WOOBUSTERS Tue, 15 Mar 2016

Pavil Davidov wrote: That's nothing to what Aubrey David Nicholas Jasper de Grey proposes.

Hahaha. Nice! Thanks for sharing an excerpt from your upcoming book, I had some laugh on it. By the way I always wondered, why the need to live longer as you can actually live? Is it fear? Most of us lives approx. for ~70 years and our lives are one big struggle, turmoil, and these people want to extend all that? They are criminals or at least sadomasochists!

Topic: Is Freedom definitive or Not? Tue, 15 Mar 2016

Huguette . wrote: Then can you see "why I'm desparate"?

Of course. That's the whole point, to see what it is. And to see it meditation is necessary.

Topic: Are we starting from the wrong end? Tue, 15 Mar 2016

Juan Eyegaray wrote: What is meditation and why human being felt at some time the need to meditate?

For me meditation means direct cognition, it involves attention, intuition, perceiving, reasoning, thinking. Why man meditates? Because he wants to know himself and the world. You don't have to accept this definition of course.

Topic: Hmm... Tue, 15 Mar 2016

max greene wrote: In a particular circumstance, if you do not do what you understand to be the correct thing to do but instead do something other, then you do what you understand to be wrong. This is either the result of being forced to do as you do, your own thinking interfering, or deliberate wrong-doing on your part.

What? If I'm forced to don't understand you is by you, Max, I'm not deliberately don't understand you.

Topic: Hmm... Tue, 15 Mar 2016

max greene wrote: Thinking is memory plus self. Why is the self necessary? Isn't memory plus awareness enough?

If thinking = memory + self, then memory + awareness = thinking = self

Topic: Urgency, hope, & despair Tue, 15 Mar 2016

Juan Eyegaray wrote: IMO you're not right on that ... Would you say that a woman who's mistreated by her controlling husband is content with how she lives and that's why she doesn't leave him despite her daily struggles, problems, wars and so on with him?

I've meant in a broad sense, the way how we live. If it we wouldn't be content with that there wouldn't be any "husband", any "wife" and any controlling.

Juan Eyegaray wrote: I think it's easy to say that we don't change because we don't want, arguing after that in fact it's because, after all, we feel comfortable with the life we live despite all our daily struggles, problems, wars and so on ... otherwise we'll change right now.

And can you provide any argument to that?

Juan Eyegaray wrote: What's more difficult is to to observe the real cause in silence

And what is the real cause? What will make you observe anything until you are content the way you live?

Juan Eyegaray wrote: So, things are not so easy as to say 'this world doesn't change because in fact it feels comfortable living in conflict' ... There are deeper things to observe, in ourselves as well as in the others, before we can get at the real cause.

Of course it is not easy, but why complicate it even more?

Topic: The brain has nothing to do with the mind? Tue, 15 Mar 2016

Pavil Davidov wrote: Then how do you know a damned thing about it?

Good question. If awareness is neither "inside" nor "outside", then it is neither in between somewhere.

Topic: The brain has nothing to do with the mind? Tue, 15 Mar 2016

max greene wrote: The "absolutely unknown," as I meant it, is something other than anything ever sensed before, so that there is no record, no base from which to proceed. Can a machine be programmed to have such sensitivity? I doubt it because the very act of programming infers a base, a protocol, a method.

But we have that base, which is senses, recognition, cognition. The talk is about all that can be reproduced in an artificial way, it's of course hard, and machines will never be the same as humans, but still it could do many of the tasks that we do, even more efficiently.

Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 878 in total