Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Dvaita (Duality) is not wrong


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Thu, 01 Sep 2011 #1
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

All types of pain( dukhas) are due to Dvaita roughly translated as Duality.

But Dvaita is not wrong.Simply it It could not be otherwsie.

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Thu, 01 Sep 2011 #2
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ravi Seth wrote:
All types of pain( dukhas) are due to Dvaita roughly translated as Duality.

But Dvaita is not wrong.Simply it It could not be otherwise.

Yes , I got it somewhere a good while ago in reading or in dreams can not tell, where this comes from ravi ?

Misusing duality leads to pain , because a sane intelligent brain takes it and solves it..which had been the case for a few people on earth only , it is a bit like putting my hand in the flame , it is painful..this is really simply intelligence in action....the "Ground of all what is " talks to us...pain is a divine message....:::)))

Dan.....

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Thu, 01 Sep 2011 #3
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Just had this image...man's life, much much more than never is like frozen water, if we consider that life is free fresh always in movement water and death frozen water..::((

Dan.....

This post was last updated by Muad dhib (account deleted) Thu, 01 Sep 2011.

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Thu, 01 Sep 2011 #4
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Muad dheeb wrote:
where this comes from ravi ?

don't know....yesterday it simply appeared on the mind's horizon, looked too strong and couldn't resist sharing.

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Thu, 01 Sep 2011 #5
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I would like to come at this from a slightly different angle, if you do not mind, Ravi and Dan. First I want to question this 'duality' and ask whether there is actual duality or whether what we call 'duality' is our subjective (limited) experience of something more profound. Human consciousness is, of course, limited by its position in the universe.

We may imagine the equator, the supposed line around the middle of the Earth. If you are standing on the equator, in one direction lies 'East' and in the other lies 'West.' If you walk to the east, no matter how far you walk, east will always be in front of you and west will be behind you. Even if you travel the whole globe, the directional truth will follow. East is East and West is West.

To put it differently, there is no East or West as fixed points. They are only directional. You will never get to the East, nor the West. They are always before or behind you (although we conventionally talk of the eastern and western world - but this is only the Euro-centred tradition). East and West are directional truths depending on where you are placed upon the 'continuum' called the equator. Yet the subjective experience is that one is constantly caught between two poles, East and West. We call this subjective experience 'duality.'

The idea of the 'Continuum' is as important as the idea of 'duality.' Objectively we can see that pain and pleasure are also a continuum. Subjectively they appear to be duality, two separate fixed experiences or points of reference. When we travel into pleasure pain is always to our rear. And the turning from pleasure is productive of pain, as the cessation of pain is pleasurable. As rich as you may become you will fear the diminution of your wealth just as tangibly.

I would say that the whole universe is made up of such continuums. Consciousness arises at certain points and the creation of subjective experience is therfore geo-specific. Consciousness appears to be caught in the headlights of various continuous strands or processes like a spider caught in a specific location of a world-wide-web. And if this were not the case, consciousness would be nothingness.

Consciousness may be seen as being reflective of the infinite number of continuums which transect it, subjectively experienced as dualities and acted within and upon, thus.

A continuum is only such when something is travelling upon it.

A continuum eats its own tail.

A continuum is a circle with neither beginning nor end.

A continuum carries itself with it.

A contimuum is essentially timeless, except to the traveller.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 01 Sep 2011 #6
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Subjectively, we create meaning. Travelling west we 'feel' westerly. The winds of the west are in our faces. We say this is the westward feeling.

Movements into pleasure and into pain are the exact same. Pleasure carries pain but has a pleasurable feeling (with a background feeling of fear). Movements into pain have a painful feeling, but with a background of anticipation. To be identified with the constant movement upon this continuum is productive of anxiety, in either direction, which is also both pleasurable and painful.

When the constant movement upon many continuums is not identified with, the movement still exists, pleasure and pain comes and goes, but they leave no trace in their wake and there is minimal associated anxiety. We can see this in specific cases when one is able to leave a troublesome problem behind. Not that one has solved the problem.

The conditions may persist but they are no longer perceived as problematic. In relation to those conditions, consciousness no longer creates. Consciousness ends, in relation to that problem.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 01 Sep 2011 #7
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Which would mean that consciousness itself is the perception of the continuum as duality, the creation of the problem and the identification with its own creation. It is the movement of friction. (I am only extrapolating from the above).

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 01 Sep 2011 #8
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ravi Seth wrote:
don't know....yesterday it simply appeared on the mind's horizon, looked too strong and couldn't resist sharing.

Yes, it was arising here too, yesterday, Ravi. What I have written above was already 'in production.'

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 01 Sep 2011 #9
Thumb_stringio Elan J. United States 66 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ravi Seth wrote:
All types of pain( dukhas) are due to Dvaita roughly translated as Duality.

But Dvaita is not wrong.Simply it It could not be otherwsie.

Yes, duality is the nature of this universe: she always comes in two. Without duality there would be no evolution, no better or worse.

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Thu, 01 Sep 2011 #10
Thumb_stringio Elan J. United States 66 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Which would mean that consciousness itself is the perception of the continuum as duality, the creation of the problem and the identification with its own creation. It is the movement of friction. (I am only extrapolating from the above).

Paul, is there a continuum between what never moves and what is only movement?

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #11
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
Simply it It could not be otherwsie.

Not necessarily, however one can be for practicality in duality with non dual awareness.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #12
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Elan J. wrote:
what never moves and what is only movement?

What never moves is perceived in relation to everything that moves, it may be that only movement.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Fri, 02 Sep 2011.

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #13
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Human consciousness is, of course, limited by its position in the universe.

Does this implie that this limitation is due to the contents of the consciousness?

nothing

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #14
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
A continuum eats its own tail.

Is this same as the time and thought begin and end?

nothing

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #15
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
Not necessarily, however one can be for practicality in duality with non dual awareness.

Kindly read again.

No body has questioned what you say.

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #16
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

i don't think i am questioning you.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #17
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
A contimuum is essentially timeless, except to the traveller.

is that also to the traveller who continues in it?
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #18
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Elan J. wrote:
Paul, is there a continuum between what never moves and what is only movement?

A continuum is not a line between two things. It is a circle. If one is one that circle there are two possible states. One is movement and the other is stillness. Movement creates conscious feeling. Stillness is stasis (with regard to the continuum). But this sounds very abstract. Let me make an example:

If I move towards pleasure I experience an increase in that. If I move towards pain I experience pain. If I am stationary there is neither consciousness of pleasure or pain.

If you chase pleasure the sensation of pleasure lessens. We call that the jading of the senses. Ice-cream gives pleasure but the more you eat the less pleasure it gives. If you continue beyond that point you again enter into pain.

I think it may be best to stick with that sort of example and get the feeling, experiment with it in other fields. East becomes West. Heat becomes cold (when you get used to the climate). But look chiefly at the soma-emotional states.

How could there be a continuum between movement and stillness? Please give an example if you can think of one.

I do not know what you mean by 'what never moves and what is only movement.' Perhaps you can give an example. I think it sounds metaphysical, perhaps. And I am not making metaphyisical points but concrete experiential ones. I am pointing out that duality is an experience and without the presense of consciousness there is no duality as such.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #19
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Paul Davidson wrote: Human consciousness is, of course, limited by its position in the universe.
Kamara asked: Does this implie that this limitation is due to the contents of the consciousness?

An interesting question Kamarajugadda.

The content of consciousness is determined by friction with the environment. Where contact is experienced as friction, that experience is stored. Where contact is fully understood, it is not experienced as friction and is not stored as experience. Understanding changes the state of one's being without the mediation of memory.

Consciousness always works within limits or limens. That which has been truly understood is fully absorbed as meaning. It is part of us. It is that the universal movement has flowed within us without resistance. It is resistance which leaves a mark. And what K called 'consciousness' (his particular use of the term) is the movement of the collective residue of past misunderstandings which arises with each new contact.

So, consciousness is limited by its own position in the universes. This is the primary limitation. This produces content and the content becomes the further, secondary limitation. The first limitation is natural, organic. We cannot do anything about it. The second is due to the accumulation of confusions. IT is neither necessary or inevitable. We can clarify and eliminate the content. But for that there needs to be continuuous moment by moment understanding of both environmental contact and of the consciousness which contacts the world. Self-cleansing demands tremendous energy and alert attention to everything.

But even so, conscuousness will still be limited to sensory experiencing and the emoto-mentation that arises from it. Anything beyond that may hardly be called consciousness, in the way we know it. It would not be 'mind.' Of that I consciously know nothing.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Fri, 02 Sep 2011.

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #20
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

:
Paul Davidson wrote:A continuum eats its own tail.kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Is this same as the time and thought begin and end?

That is very complicated to go into, Kamarajugadda. I don't know if I can put it simply. I will try:

A continuum is a teleological movement, where the end is already there at the beginning. 'Teleological' implies the tail is there at the nose, the end at the beginning, the first step is the last, etc. Indeed, it makes little sense to talk of endings and beginings in a continuum. In a sense it is outside of time. Time begins when consciousness moves one way or the other.

Truth is a continuum. But it appears to us as truth/untruth duality, depending on the direction of travel. In fact there is only truth. How could there be untruth in the universe??

Now, we can look at thought/time. Is it a continuum?

Thought is the perpetuation of image, through time, is it not? The world changes. Everything changes. But thought holds fast to the image. Thought abstracts the passing moment and holds it. It collects such images and 'runs' them, thus creating its own version of time. It can run the images fast forward or fast backwards. Thought/time is false but it is useful, as long as we know it is not real time but a facimile of living process. If we lose ourselves in thought we are captured by our own false temporal creation.

Now, is there a continuum involved here? I don't know, as yet. I see the danger of manufacturing something through imagination which does not actually apply. Let us see:

First I must look for a duality and see if there is a continuum behind it. Maybe thought and sensation? No, because they are generative of each other rather than opposing each other. Thought and perception? I cannot see it clearly so I discard it for the moment. Thought and time? No, I already went into that. They are the same movement in the same direction.

I was wondering if there is a continuum called 'perception' in which thought and sensation are limited counter-movements. But it does not seem so. They appear to me to be more of a triad. Sensation is a passive receptive state. Thought is active. Perception is mediating in so far as it connects and discovers meaning. This is the moving triad called understanding. It is not a continuum. But if we put confusion as a counter pole, we create a duality between understanding and confusion. Now we have a clear continuum.

Understanding would be a continuum within which clarity and confusion are experienced as opposite poles. And it does saeem to work. The more we understand the more we discover new confusions. There is no end to understanding. It is continuous.

Time/thought is a factor in the movement of confusion WHERE we get lost in its processes and fall into involuntary imagination. But if we can be aware of the use and limitation of time/thought, it can be used as a factor in clarity. So, movement along the continuum, this way or that, is determined by one's level of awareness of one's own processes.

But be aware that all this is clarity of mind, it is not beyond mind. We are not talking of any other process but mind. Yet clarity of mind seems to be essential if there is anything to arise beyond mind. It cannot arise in confusion.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #21
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

:
Paul Davidson wrote: A contimuum is essentially timeless, except to the traveller. ganesan balachandran wrote
is that also to the traveller who continues in it?

Possibly. I am thinking of Einstein's vision which led him towards the theory of relativity.

He knew that the speed of light cannot be increased with movement. It is (in our world) an absolute limit. So he asked, if one is travelling at the speed of light and there is a mirror to one side, also travelling at the speed of light, would one see one's own reflection in the mirror? He reasoned that there would be no extra speed available for light to travel across to the mirror and back and that therefore there would be no reflection in the mirror. For the traveller there would be no time.

Another thing. Light travels (for us) at 86,000 miles per second. Yet for the light it takes no time at all. If a photon could experience a journey from the sun to the Earth, for that photon the journey would be instantaneous. This also means that the photon only takes that journey when there is an object to journey to - a nice corollary to 'the observer is the observed.'

But in my metaphor of a traveller in a continuum, the traveller experiences the continuum as either temporal or timeless, according to his/her state of consciousness and awareness. If you truly understand that pleasure and pain are the same movement you cease making any effort to gain, to collect, to accumulate pleasure. You see that it is an illusion.

Pleasure wanes as it gains until nothing remains except the pains.

(Apols)

So, for the traveller who truly understands this, for whom that understanding becomes an essential part of their being, from which they necessarily act, that traveller stops creating time, in that regard. For the rest, they are still time travellers and time creators, trapped within the great wheels.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #22
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks for the clarification.I shall get back to you after some time.

nothing

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #23
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
How could there be a continuum between movement and stillness? Please give an example if you can think of one.

I am just trying to undestand,in the process I am constructing an example.

Original state is that :I AM.

A organic body gets life with consciousness related to its body structure.However consciousness is same to all.But the the living thing with organic body is unable to stay with the original state "I AM".It has to swing from that state to a state," I am...(say)X." otherwise the organic body with life does not get its functioning correct.Whatever it may do with thought and time, as far as with the original state is concened it is in confusion.It swigs between both states.

nothing

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Fri, 02 Sep 2011 #24
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Original state is that :I AM.

As I understand it, "I AM" points to a state of mind that is not identified with any possession or quality. But as soon as there is a living body there is sensation - experience - memory - identification. And each body is specific and has its unique energy. I think this pointer, "I AM" is an insight that may arise when all identifications are seen as limitations.

This being said, it is not clear to me that "I AM" is an original state. And it may also be an illusion if one identifies with it. Even the "I AM" must go. It is a pointer, that is all.

But you have posited a continuum involving 'I am' and 'I am this.' I think what you have described is not a continuum but a pendulum, a swinging back and forth from one state to another, both of which are states of the mind. This could happen when the "I AM" is still only an intellectual understanding and not a state of essential being. In that case the understanding comes and goes with mood swings or passing attractions. Is this so? It would seem to be an experience common to most of us.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 03 Sep 2011 #25
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Time is a continuum because how ever many tomorrows we pass through, yesterday is always there one step behind us. Time cannot be accumulated. Yet thought creates the duality of past and future. It is a working perspective for the manipulation of images.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011 #26
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Time is a continuum

like the assumption in fluid mechanics?
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011 #27
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
Time is a continuum
like the assumption in fluid mechanics?
gb

I do not know that assumption Ganesan. Please teach me.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011 #28
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I do not know that assumption Ganesan.

we assume them to be a continuum. In spite of the fact they are all molecules in motion, like you pointed out yesterday is always there.This is just a rough idea, i thought you can explain better.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011 #29
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Oh I see. So the molecules behave like a continuum but are in fact a flow. But I am not sure this is right Ganesan. Continuum and flow are not the same thing.

If you consider it rightly, even solid matter is in flow, albeit with a totally different scale of action or time. Just look at the flow of the hills. It is liquid action but on a time scale immeasurable to us on our scale of life-span. They are moving, flowing, but in such a slow motion they seem to us eternal and static. We say "as old as the hills" which is a perception to our limited scale of time.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011 #30
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

COME ON GUYS!!

The question is DUALITY

DUALITY - - - - ARE YOU FOR IT OR AGAINST IT??

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Mon, 05 Sep 2011.

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