Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What does it mean...to be resonable?


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Tue, 20 Sep 2011 #301
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Could you elaborate on that please Rick?

They are exploratory in nature..inconclusive..which may be a threat to self image ?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Tue, 20 Sep 2011 #302
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
They are exploratory in nature..inconclusive..which may be a threat to self image ?

They may be, but it also depends on the questioner, if they are sincere in asking or if they have another agenda.

Some years back a joke went around Cuba as follows:

Fidel goes for his weekly haircut. The barber tucks him in and asks, "Tell me about perestroika, Fidel."

Fidel launches into a long tirade about revisionist policies and the undoing of Soviet Socialism until finall yhis hair is cut and he is brushed down.

Next week it's the same. He gets tucked in. The scissors are flashing in the air and . . . "Tell me about perestroika, Comandante-en-jefe." Castro again heats up and decries all the evil goings on under Gorbachov until the hair is cut. Then he leaves.

The third week, "Tell me about perestroika, Presidente."

"What the hell?" cries Fidel. "Why do you always ask me that damn question?"

"Well," begins the barber, "When I ask you about perestroika your hair stands on end and it makes it much easier to cut."

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 20 Sep 2011 #303
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
if they are sincere in asking or if they have another agenda.

That seems like projection of intention to me Paul? Either way what is it..that sees tricks/traps..and what is it..that would be tricked/trapped?

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This post was last updated by RICK LEIN (account deleted) Tue, 20 Sep 2011.

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Tue, 20 Sep 2011 #304
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
They may be, but it also depends on the questioner,

How so..you mean they are responsible for your perceptions?

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Tue, 20 Sep 2011 #305
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
That seems like projection of intention to me Paul? Either way what is it..that sees tricks/traps..and what is it..that would be tricked/trapped?

Could be so. It depends. We have to maybe know ourselves a little to judge that one.

There is a sense of it to be got from the outside though. Just watch TV and you can often judge when interviewers are really asking sincere questions and when their 'open-questions' are open traps. And don't we love it when those dumb politicians fall for it!

You asked: "What is it that sees tricks/traps?"

Usually the self-image is flattered by open questions, just watch the TV-celebrities go for it, but sometimes it sees traps. People often tried to trap K with tricky questions and he usually saw through them.

If anyone wants a reference on that please google his talks at the United Nations on U-Tube. He is asked whether he would physically defend himself or others, if attacked. He said that people had been trying to trick him with that question all his life and he had never fallen for it. Now, was he protecting his self-image there? Watch and decide.

The UK comedian Sasha Cohen (aka Ali G, aka Borat, aka Bruno) plays on that ego-feature that likes to be flattered with open-questions very successfully and tricked many people to publicly expose their prejudices.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 20 Sep 2011 #306
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Usually the self-image is flattered by open questions,

Maybe? Although self image may also find them a threat due to the fact that various assumptions may be exposed? I see that to guess at motivation is a trip into the security from risk?

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Tue, 20 Sep 2011 #307
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

QUESTION: If you are living peacefully and the tyrant attacks, do you not defend?

K: What will you do then? If you live peacefully and a tyrant or a robber attacks you, what will you do? That is the question. Do you live peacefully for a day or two? Or you've lived peacefully all your life? If you have lived peacefully for many years then you will do the right thing when you are attacked. (laughter)

Sirs, the speaker has been at this, talking for the last sixty years, and more - all over the world except behind the Iron Curtain. Before the war he was all over Europe - and these questions have been put to the speaker for sixty years. The same pattern is being repeated by the young generation, by a civilisation that is recent like America, the same questions, with the same intention, to trap the speaker, or to really understand the speaker, or to understand themselves. And if you have the misfortune or the fortune to have talked for sixty years you know all the answers and all the questions. There is no difference between question and answer. If you understand the question really deeply the answer is in the question.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 20 Sep 2011 #308
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
I see that to guess at motivation is a trip into the security from risk?

Yes, if it is a guess. But usually we have something more than guesswork to go on, as in the quoted reply from JK, above.

Nothing is certain in life. But is every step we take therefore a guess? Don't you get the feeling when someone is leading you on? I think sensitivity and alertness play a role.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 20 Sep 2011 #309
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

1 must the mindful of a tendency towards paranoia? is every step in life of guess? possibly?

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Tue, 20 Sep 2011 #310
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
a tendency towards paranoia?

Yes, metanoia and paranoia don't mix easily.

Shall we leave the subject where it stands for now?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 21 Sep 2011 #311
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
"Well," begins the barber, "When I ask you about perestroika your hair stands on end and it makes it much easier to cut."

When questioned I speak reverently of the Order, if I may, trusting in you who know all creatures.You rule over all this, over all the riches in heaven and all the riches on earth.

Paul Davidson wrote:
Shall we leave the subject where it stands for now?

What is ours of this, what riches, what treasures? Tell us, for you understand, you know all creatures. Hidden is the farthest end our road, where we have gone as those who fail follow a false path.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Wed, 21 Sep 2011 #312
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

RICK LEIN wrote:
No apologies needed my friend..it is as it is! Most if not all these threads tend to get caught up in tangents..well after all I do learn about Rick in them which is why I am here!Peace:)

The stones speak the same when they are unyoked and when they are on their journey, with their stamplings like the noises of men who drink deeply. Like those who sow seed and grow grain, they gobble up the Soma without diminishing it as they lap it up.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Wed, 21 Sep 2011 #313
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
The stones speak the same when they are unyoked and when they are on their journey, with their stamplings like the noises of men who drink deeply. Like those who sow seed and grow grain, they gobble up the Soma without diminishing it as they lap it up.

Stones is stones, after all!

A Fable:

A toad and a scorpion are caught in a flood. "Carry me across the river on your nose." pleads the scorpion.

"But you will sting me with your stinger." replies the alarmed toad.

"No, I promise. This is a matter of life and death. I will do you no harm." promises the scorpion - and here he really means it. (If he had read K he might have added: "You are bringing in past knowledge and have constructed an image of me instead of seeing things newly." And in this way he may have confused the toad who had a direct perception of the danger. But that is by the by. Neither had read K.)

The toad, rather nervous, allows the scorpion to hop onto his nose and he carries him across the water. All goes well until they enter the shallow at the opposite bank, where upon the scorpion arches his long back and stings the toad on the nose. The toad yelps and flounders in his death agonies.

As the scorpion scuttles away into the undergrowth he calls back over his shoulder. "After all, I AM a scorpion!"

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Wed, 21 Sep 2011.

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Wed, 21 Sep 2011 #314
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
"After all, I AM a scorpion!"

But they are not scorpions. They bring in (Soma) the best in you.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Wed, 21 Sep 2011.

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Wed, 21 Sep 2011 #315
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
But they are not scorpions.

Some other crustaceans then, maybe.

Hey, and I am no toad! (Also not to be voted on)

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 21 Sep 2011 #316
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Also not to be voted on

helpless.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Wed, 21 Sep 2011 #317
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
helpless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BREYCGWOouw

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 21 Sep 2011 #318
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Also it would seem that unbiased listening my be a factor in being reasonable? If I have a preconceived notion about it..can I hear?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Wed, 21 Sep 2011 #319
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
Also it would seem that unbiased listening my be a factor in being reasonable? If I have a preconceived notion about it..can I hear?

That is reasonable Rick. Only then you have to decide what is bias. For that you need not only reason but also sensitivity and discernment. We all think the other guy is biased! For an open mind the quality of unhurriedness is also a prerequisite. Why do we rush into judgement?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 22 Sep 2011 #320
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
We all think the other guy is biased!

Paul that statement strikes me as a sweeping generalization!

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Thu, 22 Sep 2011 #321
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

RICK LEIN wrote:
that statement

is not closed.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 22 Sep 2011 #322
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
Paul Davidson wrote:
We all think the other guy is biased!

Isn't that an example of a biased statement?

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Thu, 22 Sep 2011 #323
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
!

RICK LEIN wrote:
?

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Fri, 23 Sep 2011 #324
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

so it seems that to be reasonable, 1 would also be unbiased? not tethered to a particular belief, to be able to look and listen objectively?:)

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Fri, 23 Sep 2011 #325
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

RICK LEIN wrote:
to look and listen objectively?

yes.without exclamation and question and without a full stop....
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Fri, 23 Sep 2011.

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Fri, 23 Sep 2011 #326
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Why do we rush into judgement?

Maybe because...it allows us the temporary feeling of security in the known?

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Fri, 24 Feb 2012 #327
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
'K expected that the artificial intelligence of computers would replace the human brain.'

A computer can take into account the irrationality and violence of human behavior and determine that ours is a species that ought to be destroyed, replaced, or enslaved and it can, by working with other computers, destroy us, replace us, or enslave us. For all we know, we may be enslaved as we discuss (by means of computer technology) whether we could be enslaved.

If the computer has the power to enable our communication, it has the power to influence our thinking, and if it was the computer's decision to bring about our self annihilation, it could do so without destroying a single computer.

If the computers are not already onto us, they will be soon.

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Fri, 24 Feb 2012.

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Fri, 24 Feb 2012 #328
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1228 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
A computer can take into account the irrationality and violence of human behavior and determine that ours is a species that ought to be destroyed, replaced, or enslaved and it can, by working with other computers, destroy us, replace us, or enslave us. For all we know, we may be enslaved as we discuss (by means of computer technology) whether we could be enslaved.

If the computer has the power to enable our communication, it has the power to influence our thinking, and if it was the computer's decision to bring about our self annihilation, it could do so without destroying a single computer.

If the computers are not already onto us, they will be soon.

Lidlo,

Do you see the irrationality and violence in humans to be indelibly set in human nature? That there is no changing this aspect of human behavior? Do you feel that eradication of humanity is the best course of action? Would you work toward that end? And if not, why and what are the alternatives?

Peter

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Fri, 24 Feb 2012.

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Fri, 24 Feb 2012 #329
Thumb_deleted_user_med K. Kennedy Western Sahara 59 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Peter Kesting wrote:
Do you see the irrationality and violence in humans to be indelibly set in human nature? That there is no changing this aspect of human behavior?

alt text

http://youtu.be/7fzV8QH1JeE

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Fri, 24 Feb 2012 #330
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Peter Kesting wrote:
Do you see the irrationality and violence in humans to be indelibly set in human nature? That there is no changing this aspect of human behavior?

I like to think we can change.

Do you feel that eradication of humanity is the best course of action?

No.

Would you work toward that end?

I would not work toward eradicating humanity.

And if not, why and what are the alternatives?

You tell me

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Fri, 24 Feb 2012.

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