Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

What does it mean...to be resonable?


Displaying posts 151 - 180 of 330 in total
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #151
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I was at university during that time and remember the ideological perspective well. The imminent new age of leisure did not materialise. Instead we got Regan and Thatcher!

Paul Davidson wrote:
I was at university during that time and remember the ideological perspective well. The imminent new age of leisure did not materialise. Instead we got Regan and Thatcher!

Did K give a time frame? What will be the position in about 200years? Americans are sending unmanned rockets to Mars & testing samples of earth there & relaying the findings here! Anything is possible with the type of astonishing technological advancements we are witnessing every day.What will be there in 200years we will no believe today.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #152
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
But I did not say that passion gives meaning. I said passion brings meaning.

It is irrelevant whether you said give or bring.Passion can neither give nor bring meaning.It is intelligence that can bring about passion.How can there be passion without knowing what it about there is passion? That about is intelligence that brings about passion.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #153
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
The modern computer does almost everything that the human brain can do.

Thank God , it cannot recite Veda with understanding:) or with awareness or simply perceive insights.

gb

But K said computers can recite better than humans.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Wed, 14 Sep 2011.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #154
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
PD: Jack quoted me as follows: "At the time K was writing such stuff he was influenced by a small group of scientists and naively sociologistic thinkers who put before him the contemporary wisdom in liberal academic circles that with the new age we were moving into a period of increased leisure where entertainment would replace work as the main preoccupation for filling one's time. I was at university during that time and remember the ideological perspective well. The imminent new age of leisure did not materialise. Instead we got Regan and Thatcher!
But no sensible and informed scientist today predicts such 'Brave New World' stuff. Incidentally, it is possible K was also drawn to the prognostications of Aldous Huxley,with whom he also spent considerable time. Huxley's dystopias had quite an appeal back then." Jack then commented:
Mr Davidson:
Your quote above is what you actually wrote about K and computers and what I disagree with. Yet in a subsequent post you tried to make it seem like you were supporting what K had to say about computers with a long list of quotes supplied by you. Are you really that blatantly dishonest?

Firstly, I stand by what I said. I included a link which brings the reader to a lengthy discussion which K had with the experts.K says littlein the discussion and so they are more than usually freeto expound their theories about computers. If you read the discussion between 'experts'you will find they say exactly what I said they say: namely that computers will replace the human brain and that we shall be left with nothing but leisure, empty time filled by entertainment.

And I also stated that K was influenced by these wrong arguments and went on to repeat them. But I did not leave it as 'my opinion.' AS people had questioned me about it I decided to paste in some quotesof K to show that it was noit mere opinion but factually based. K actually repeated all the arguments of the 'experts' and then some. And he does so with a repeated and quaintlynaive reverence of their so-called expertise. "I have talked with the experts . . . the top people" etc.

I have no idea why Jack came to the conclusion that I quoted K to agree with him. I said exactly WHY I was quoting him when I said it was for people who genuinely wanted to know exactly what he did say. That was my stated intention. I could not have been plainer. I said it and I did it. Jack has cast his own conclusions and proceeds from there to question my honesty.

Of course he puts it as a question, "Are you blatantly dishonest?" But we get the feeling that he has answered it to his satisfaction.

And I get the feeling that this whole outrageous lambasting is 'to his own satisfaction. Well, I hope it makes him satisfied. I don't know what else to say.

If, however Jack wants to discuss the issues, not the personal likes and dislikes, then I am still open to do so. But I will not answer more angry and personal attacks.It is not, as Rick suggests, that I am 'thin-skinned' about it. Indeed, let those with thick skins step into the light! But I find the whole approach very negative to the purposes of this site and I do not wish to indulge the pain of others in such a way.

So, Jack, Rick et al. I made my points about the issues. I supplied sufficient quotations to back up factually what I said. If you want to discuss the issues, any issues that are fundamental to the points raised I will enjoy to do so. But I will not pander to personal pique.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #155
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Did K give a time frame? What will be the position in about 200years?

Yes, Kapila. He gave a time frame, unfortunately.He said it would happen within ten years. Mostly he said it was happening, or had happened, right now. He was saying this thirty years ago. Here are some lines from the quotes I pasted before. I will highlight the time-references. These are extracted but they are typical. You can read the whole extracts or do a search using 'computers'in j.krishnamurtOnline:

"We have talked to some experts on computers, and within ten years they say they will outstrip completely man."

"They are producing machines which will control us, human beings - which is actually going on now."

"They can write poems, paint, do extraordinary things."

"They are inventing this; it is so rapid. So what becomes of man?"

"The computer experts, and some of them are so frightened."

"What is going to happen to man, or to woman, when the computer takes the whole thing over?"

"A government can be run by computers . . . "

"The computers are taking over all the activities of man, almost all the activities. They are building a society where the machine is going to rule. This obviously is coming."

" . . . the computers are going to take over, not the philosophers, not the politicians. Their day will soon be over, I hope . . . The computers cannot be made corrupt, but the politician and philosopher can be, and are."

"And the computers are taking the place of teachers. A computer can teach far better than an ordinary local teacher."

"And those computers can almost do anything that the human thought has done."

" . . . the computers are taking over all our thinking. They outstrip man, they are going to, or already have done."

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #156
Thumb_stringio Julian S United Kingdom 194 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
For years, especially the last two or three of his life, K was adamant that no one is empowered to take over for him or to interpret his work. Is that who you are trying to become? It seems like it from many of your posts. You browbeat and bully anyone who posts something you disagree with. You saturate the site with your posts which are mostly composed of your unsubstantiated opinions, ideas and beliefs. This site belongs to all of us who would post here and it is about what K pointed out not about anyone's random opinions and beliefs.

What on earth are you talking about?

Paul could certainly be criticised for posting too much on this forum, but at least what he writes tends to have some content, rather than series of smirks and smileys. I see no evidence whatsoever of him setting himself up as an interpreter or authority of Krishnamurti's teachings - he seems to write what he sees, engages in debate and is ready to admit when he's wrong.

Of course he has "opinions, ideas and beliefs" - don't you? Or are you professing to be free from such human fallacies? When Krishnamurti readers make the criticism that the other has beliefs or images, what they imply is that they themselves are free of such things. Do your posts contain beliefs and ideas, or are you foolish enough to think you see clearly without distortion?

Perhaps you would also show where he has been "boorish" or engaged in browbeating or bullying - some clear, straightforward instances because I haven't seen it.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #157
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Julian S wrote:
For years, especially the last two or three of his life, K was adamant that no one is empowered to take over for him or to interpret his work.

What if that come naturally for me. perhaps K's mistake, otherwise he should have dissolved the foundations also inspite of the so called legal complications, which he didn't question. but may i tell you one thing...

From that sacrifice in which everything was offered, the verses and chants were born, the metres were born from it, and from it formulas were born.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #158
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Americans are sending unmanned rockets to Mars & testing samples of earth there & relaying the findings here! Anything is possible with the type of astonishing technological advancements we are witnessing every day.

The US has practically dismantled its space program Kapila. They have no MONEY to do such things any more. But I do not want to prognosticate about the future, Kapila. We get into the realms of science-fiction. I write science-fiction. I do not live it.

No, you are wrong. 'Anything' is not possible. What is possible is strictly circumscribed by actuality and actuality is very complex, as the scientists are finding out with computers and artificial intelligence. Read the current reports of progress within the field and you will see. Hollywood, it is not!

K never talked of 200 years, on any issue. He concentrated on the now. And it seems he thought it was really happening, that machines were taking over. At least, he said so.

As I said previously, life has become more mechanical and this is a big problem.

But K said that computers, not humans, had made the decisions in the Korean War. He was way out of his depths on that one. You see, the thinking was wrong. Face it as it is.

OK, let's ask the questions, have computers led us into war in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya? Have politicians vanished and been replaced by incorruptable machines? Have the workers been replaced by robots?

If you look in any field of human activity you will find that machines have augmented human labour in that field, not replaced it. There is nomore leisure because of the machine. People are working three jobs just to maintain themselves. That is the real world-wide world.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #159
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

It's funny,the media talk about the currect revolts in the Middle East as "I-Phone Revolutions." Do you really think the I-Phone is in revolt?

The film, 'I Robot' is no more realistic than 'Revolt Of The Planet Of The Apes.' We are too easily duped and scared by such things.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Wed, 14 Sep 2011.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #160
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Julian S wrote:
Quoting Jack Pine - For years, especially the last two or three of his life, K was adamant that no one is empowered to take over for him or to interpret his work.

Jack might like to read "Don't Make A Problem Of Anything."

K encouraged people "soaked in the teaching" to go out and teach, from the depth of their own understanding, neither repeating nor interpreting his words but coining their own language.

And K did not regard the teaching as "His Work" as Jack imagines. It is "Our Work," if we care to make it so.

K did not see himself as the 'final prophet',in the Mohammedan sense. And the Collected Works is not the J.Koran.

We are free to teach it in so far as we live it. And we are free to make mistakes in so doing. He made that clear in the book mentioned.

Fear of making mistakes: Fear of saying it wrongly, Fear of departing from the language: Fear of being rebuked: Fear of standing on one's own: This is what may be behind much of the staleness evidenced in those who approach the teaching wrongly. And it all re-empowers authority.

"It is not my teaching."

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Wed, 14 Sep 2011.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #161
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Passion can neither give nor bring meaning.It is intelligence that can bring about passion.How can there be passion without knowing what it about there is passion? That about is intelligence that brings about passion.

Can there be passion without an object? Is this your question, dear Kapila?

I answer you: Can there be love without an object?

But why do you divide Intelligence and passion? Intelligence, Love and Passion are one. Life has no object and Passion is the life-force. Can we see it like this? We are not talking of passion for collecting stamps, after all.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #162
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
well! what is that, which is in india only. is he irrelevant?

It is, people keep smiling here beside of lot of suffering.(I will supply quote on this, wait:))

I don't know

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #163
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
Dried log of wood resembling a dead man.

Wood that be pinewood?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #164
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Paul,

The quotes you have provided in your post #155 attributed to K don't have any incorrect statements about computers by him.

It doesn't have a time frame except that he says that revolutions is taking place now, which is a fact.The beginning he has given.The first quotation which is a statement of time frame of 10years by some experts cannot be attributed to him.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 4 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #165
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
ganesan balachandran wrote:

well! what is that, which is in india only. is he irrelevant?

ghee!

China has chi

India has ghee

US has "Gee!"

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #166
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
The quotes you have provided in your post #155 attributed to K don't have any incorrect statements about computers by him.

"attributed"? Do you doubt it?

Well, Kapila, you make whatever sense of it you wish. I do the same. But he said it was happening now and he referred affectionately to experts who gave it ten years.

But look what you have done, Kapila. You asked me a specific question about timescale, nothing to do with incorrect statements about computers. Your rebuke is misplaced. If you want to read incorrect statements about computers than read the whole extracts, not some selected lines on time-scale.

If you get the sense of what K was saying, it was about something immanent, something that was to happen sooner, rather than later. That is very clear. He even said, "It is happening now". A blind man could see it.

"They are producing machines which will control us, human beings - which is actually going on now."

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Wed, 14 Sep 2011.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #167
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Just some impression about computer :

well for me computer is "only" the analytical brain projection of itself , yes faster and so on.....oh great that is faster : wonderful ! why is it good ? ...well you do it faster, yes but why is it good...?? faster = competition .
Competition means one winner and many loosers...and we say :brilliant we go for it as a way to live together ,clever guys..:( shall we kill the loosers ?
We are not that far from this ultimate madness. Do you see this happening the world ? where the unemployed is now responsible for unemployment , the system is always right all the time ,the policeman too, the soldier too, the judge too , the politician too always 100 % right , the perfection has landed on earth , the perfect insanity...

Faster , is in the field of what is relative to something else so is comparison so is competition so is war...well the bottom line of the logical analysing is this : one man , one way , one doing, one word and so on will be left at the end of time.....because one opinion tolerates only itself , our lives are the war of opinions, so one will be left is the simple logic of planet earth societies ( more complicated but..) this is where analysing if left on its own leads....well......It is probably brilliant....the new god science says so....

Anyway I like to keep making my wooden furnitures , I need 1 month for a nice piece of a cabinet ,and in those days we are living I wonder if I am not going sentenced to jail for such an anti-business way of doing things::))

Today we buy , so work for money ,we have left all what we could have done together in vital fields where lies the only bit of " relative security" we can have , but because we don't want to work together on a happy sharing voluntary base at the end of the day we are forced to work together and we say : yes ok !

But this time with a gun behind the back , money is a gun do you see that ? We then work for the leader hoping for a shelter in life...the shelter is a prison ,and the life is sorrow...well this is a piece of achievement somehow I guess..

And what the leaders say : more of it.....it is not enough yet.....do you have any idea of which main group is kind of leading the all game behind that ?...

Dan.....

This post was last updated by Muad dhib (account deleted) Wed, 14 Sep 2011.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #168
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

dhirendra singh wrote:
It is, people keep smiling here beside of lot of suffering.(I will supply quote on this, wait:))

Not necessary, that is the secret behind vedas recital(parayanam) and because of that you can find such people all over the world.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Thu, 15 Sep 2011.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #169
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
The US has practically dismantled its space program Kapila. They have no MONEY to do such things any more.

That's not the point.The statement was about what man is capable of.

Paul Davidson wrote:
No, you are wrong. 'Anything' is not possible.

This is what I am saying.You are taking it literally again just to disprove without looking at what is meant.Anything here doesn't mean anything but that man is capable of quite a lot of unthinkable things.(again unthinkable here means not unthinkable but very. very remarkable things)

Paul Davidson wrote:
K never talked of 200 years, on any issue. He concentrated on the now. And it seems he thought it was really happening, that machines were taking over. At least, he said so.

I didn't say K said 200yers.It's really happening.He was correct there.

Paul Davidson wrote:
But K said that computers, not humans, had made the decisions in the Korean War. He was way out of his depths on that one.

How do you know whether he was way out? Do you know all the details of how that war was carried out to make this statement? K met lot of people, politicians & so on.It is possible he could have come to know something.

Paul Davidson wrote:
OK, let's ask the questions, have computers led us into war in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya? Have politicians vanished and been replaced by incorruptable machines? Have the workers been replaced by robots?

Did he say computers will lead us to war that you raised this question? I don't think he did.

Did he say politicians will vanish or computers can run governments more efficiently? The latter if he said doesn't mean he predicted politicians will vanish.The quotation you provided doesn't say he said politicians will vanish.He had talked about what is possible.I also think a system of computers can run a better government.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #170
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
ghee!

These streams of butter flow from the ocean of the heart, enclosed by a hundred fences so that the enemies( analytic mind and artificial intelligence too) cannot see them. I gaze upon them; the golden reed is in their mist..

Thanks to JK

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Wed, 14 Sep 2011.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #171
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
"They are producing machines which will control us, human beings - which is actually going on now."

This statement is correct.What did he mean by control here? Have impact on us? That's correct.It's happening now.

This post was last updated by Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Wed, 14 Sep 2011.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #172
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Wood that be pinewood?

lost!.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #173
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
But why do you divide Intelligence and passion?

I didn't divide intelligence & passion.I said passion is born out of intelligence.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #174
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I see what he intends. That is the obvious part. I do not know why he so intends. That is a different matter.

Well, Paul, This may not be a fact what you see about Ravi or any.

May be, it is other way, Probably Ravi don't want to waste your and his time by continuing dialogue on the matter which is nonsense in his view.

I don't know

This post was last updated by dhirendra singh Wed, 14 Sep 2011.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 4 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #175
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
..............And I also stated that K was influenced by these wrong arguments and went on to repeat them. But I did not leave it as 'my opinion.' AS people had questioned me about it I decided to paste in some quotesof K to show that it was noit mere opinion but factually based. K actually repeated all the arguments of the 'experts' and then some. And he does so with a repeated and quaintlynaive reverence of their so-called expertise. "I have talked with the experts . . . the top people" etc.......................

'k' is shown to be riding the coattails of such experts.

It is so sad that after 60 years of the 'teaching' that there was much more to life than this drudgery, the mechanical way of living ( that too before these electronic toys , the computers were ever invented), to the contrary, he is shown to be an ally that too a reverential one to those who wear this mechanical & robotic culture on their head with pride.

To us it requires may be a life time to see what he says in one paragraph.Hats off to you that you present such a ludicrous streak in 'k's character in such a short time which we missed till today.

Thank you Mr. Paul Davidson.

This post was last updated by Ravi Seth Wed, 14 Sep 2011.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 4 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #176
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

RICK LEIN wrote:
Dear Jack..and then the rest of it..LOL..I hope you were looking in the mirror when you wrote that. In your efforts to repudiate you emulate?:)

Again mirror, but I only like to look at mirror with make up.;)

I don't know

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #177
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Sylvia Brandeis wrote:
Just wanted Paul to know that not everyone shares your view as at the moment he seems to be hounded by attack dogs with rather fixed programming.

Non agreement means hounding by dogs?

If you feel hounded or he feel hounded by words(not by dogs, there are none), then neither you are benefited by him nor he is benefited by K.

I don't know

This post was last updated by dhirendra singh Wed, 14 Sep 2011.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 4 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #178
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

K was not expert of computers.

K was expert of human psyche.

His concern was, "To set human free".

What is your concern?

I don't know

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #179
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
Again mirror, but I only like to look at mirror with make up.;)

LOL:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #180
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
It is not, as Rick suggests, that I am 'thin-skinned' about it.

Dear Paul..if you would kindly reread Ricks post..you will find the above referenced misquote as it was actually written..in the plural..not singular..and secondly your specific name was not even mentioned.Thirdly the above response/reaction is an example of projection of personalization where there is none..It was a general statement which you have for your own reasons taken personally!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Displaying posts 151 - 180 of 330 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)