Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What does it mean...to be resonable?


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Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #181
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ravi Seth wrote:
To us it requires may be a life time to see what he says in one paragraph.Hats off to you that you present such a ludicrous streak in 'k's character in such a short time which we missed till today.

Thank you Mr. Paul Davidson.

Wah!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #182
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sylvia Brandeis wrote:
He obviously takes Krishnamurti very seriously. In contrast to your view, I find him one of the least likely here to jump precipitously to conclusion.

My dear Syliva..please direct your attention to post #144..and then post #180 and you will find that it was a general statement which "Was Jumped" to a conclusion of a personal nature!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #183
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5770 posts in this forum Offline

Sylvia Brandeis wrote:
He obviously takes Krishnamurti very seriously. In contrast to your view, I find him one of the least likely here to jump precipitously to conclusion.

No Ms. Brandeis, as others have already pointed by their rejection of his views and by his own statements, Mr Davidson doesn't take K seriously Read the posts of the past 24 hours on this thread. He takes himself seriously which is unfortuneate. Look at all of the precipitous conclusions he has jumped to and been corrected on by several posters on this thread. And wouldn't you call Mr. Davidson's remark that Aldous Huxley probably influenced K on computers a bit precipitous since he has absolutely no evidence to back that up? Opinion isn't evidence. Hell, Huxley died in 1963 and computers were certainly around then but they were not such a big deal for most of us.

Mr Davidson is an egotist who distains any critizism of his proclamations. He is trying to dominate this site which I, and apparently some others, take great exception to.

I came here to discuss K's views and discoveries not Paul Davidson's opinions of what K really thought or what K really meant.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 15 Sep 2011.

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Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #184
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
What is a fundamental question Paul?

Oh . . . Why do you ask, Rick?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #185
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
And wouldn't you call Mr. Davidson's remark that Aldous Huxley probably influenced K on computers a bit precipitous

That is so funny, Jack! I promised myself not to answer any more personal invective but your comment brought tears to my eyes. Thankyou.

Now if you would actually quote me where I said such a thing I would gladly admit to being wrong about it. Where did I say Huxley influenced K on computers?

I'll pay $1,000 into the Ojai appeal if you can quote me on that. Otherwise, Jack, you may have to eat humble pie and admit you are wrong.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #186
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:

RICK LEIN wrote:
What is a fundamental question Paul?

Oh . . . Why do you ask, Rick?

Do you see a difference between a fundamental question and..or.. an open ended question?:)

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Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #187
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
You have, apparently, gulled a couple of women . . . That's not too hard to do

Jack Pine wrote:
No Ms. Brandeis,

Do you have some sort of gender issue, Jack? Tell me, has anyone ever pointed it out to you?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Wed, 14 Sep 2011.

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Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #188
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
Do you see a difference between a fundamental question and..or.. an open ended question?:)

Not exactly, Rick. A fundamental question may be either open ended or closed-ended. Fundamnental only means the question aims at the root, the foundation of the issue. It does not in itself determine the manner of the asking.

But I asked, "Why do you ask, Rick?" Why did you ask that question?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #189
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
But I asked, "Why do you ask, Rick?" Why did you ask that question?

Paul..are you saying then..that they are essentially the same in nature? You gave a definition of fundamental...but did not address open ended ?:)

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Wed, 14 Sep 2011 #190
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
Paul..are you saying then..that they are essentially the same in nature? You gave a definition of fundamental...but did not address open ended ?:)

I will answer your question Rick. I thought I had done so, sufficiently. But I will go a little further, as you have requested. But please also be good enough to answer mine, which was, "Why are you asking, Rick?"

I already said, in my opinion, the word 'fundamental' refers to the direction of the question: whether or not it goes towards the root, the foundation, of the issue.

And I also said that the phrase 'open-ended', in my opinion, refers to the form of the question, the contour.

So, one refers to the directional content and the other to the form. They refer, in my opinion, to two different things.

But unless I know why you are asking, Rick, it is difficult for me to get the sense of what your question involves or where you want to take it. I am not trying to be obtuse but you have obviously something in mind and I do not know what it is or how to frame an adequate response to it.

Is it not that the motivation behind the asking of a question is something fundamental to that question?

So, why do you ask the question, Rick?

I am here asking a fairly open question, but one which is fundamental to my ability to adequately respond to you.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #191
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

well ..... k said fundamental questions, have no yes or no answers, it seems to fit the definition of open ended questioning..being if it is "open ended" how can it also be close minded?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

This post was last updated by RICK LEIN (account deleted) Thu, 15 Sep 2011.

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #192
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

dhirendra singh wrote:
I only like to look at mirror with make up.;)

also i need the mirror for my make up.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #193
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
well ..... k said fundamental questions, have no yes or no answers, it seems to fit the definition of open ended questioning..being if it is "open ended" how can it also be close minded?

So, I guess what you are trying to do is to trap me into a discussion on abstractions, Rick.

Look, actuality is always concrete. This whole thing involves Ravi's request to me, does it not? Ravi asked, "Can you elaborate?" That request has the form, of open-endedness, does it not? But,asit turnedout, Ravi was notinterestedin my elaboration. He was just playing a trick.He was trying toseduce meintoa broad reply./He was tryingtogive me enough ropeto hang myself. AndIdidnotfallforit. It was an open-ended question motivatedby a closedmind. He hadalready concluded. His question wasfalse.

Ifyou are goingtoquote K asan authority on the subject,Rick,you have to get tothe fundamental pointof what K wassaying. And K,in this case, was talking aboutopen-ended questions askedhonestly,in earnest,by amind thatis seriouslyinmterestedin the answer,nota feeble-mindedattemptto set a trapfor the unwary. Do you reallythink K was referring to the sort of approach Ravi was taking towards me?

Sorry forthe bad typing,my space barisstill playingupandI have not the patience I usuallyhave to go through and correct everything.In fact I have nopatience left forthissort ofutter time-wasting nonsense,Rick.Kindlydonotbother mein future with dumb.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #194
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

It is interesting to observe how easily the self - when it insists upon being repeatedly at the centre of any inquiry or discussion - is then so intent on being misunderstood, insulted, impatient - and all the rest of the emotions the self loves to wallow within.

Or alternatively - so easily flattered by a few meagre 'recommendations'!

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #195
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
He was just playing a trick.He was trying toseduce meintoa broad reply./He was tryingtogive me enough ropeto hang myself. AndIdidnotfallforit. It was an open-ended question motivatedby a closedmind. He hadalready concluded. His question wasfalse.

LOL....It seems by the above that someone may be more interested in protection of self image..than in open ended discussion of fundamental questions...having already concluded that anyone who does not agree with..or challenges us is enemy out to get us. So sorry for bothering you with my dumbness..have a nice day...

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #196
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
It is interesting to observe how easily the self - when it insists upon being repeatedly at the centre of any inquiry or discussion - is then so intent on being misunderstood, insulted, impatient - and all the rest of the emotions the self loves to wallow within.

Yes isn't it!What a tremendous wastage of energy...to be constantly on the defensive...always looking for...and often manufacturing threats is one of the chief ways of the self in stay in charge....Fear!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

This post was last updated by RICK LEIN (account deleted) Thu, 15 Sep 2011.

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #197
Thumb_flower_4 Ana Flavia Lucas Brazil 28 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
You saturate the site with your posts which are mostly composed of your unsubstantiated opinions, ideas and beliefs. This site belongs to all of us who would post here and it is about what K pointed out not about anyone's random opinions and beliefs. And Jack Pine wrote:
You have, apparently, gulled a couple of women and maybe some others into believing you actually know something worthwhile about what K pointed out.

Hi all,
I am a frequent reader of this site but barely feel like posting. But I would like to say that I, like Sylvia, Ganesan, Julian and Julia, appreciate very much the freedom, passion, creativity and sincerity of Paul's posts. Maybe the fact that some of us happen to be a woman makes Jack dismiss me as easy to gull. If Jack’s male ego is feeling dominated in this thread, as it seems to me in the statement “the site belongs to all of us” he may easily opens a new thread of his own.
I do prefer to read K itself to know what he said in first hand, but sometimes it adds to my understanding to hear about how others are doing their internal work, as I am doing mine. It is our work, our world, our teachings and our site. Competition, envy, rudeness, pettyness and arrogance are outside and inside all the time, but to look at them (we) without judgement is the intelligent thing to do. If we see it deeply and intensely we may understand the futility and ignorance in that and then it is gone….

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #198
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ana Flavia Lucas wrote:
Competition, envy, rudeness, pettyness and arrogance are outside and inside all the time, but to look at them (we) without judgement is the intelligent thing to do. If we see it deeply and intensely we may understand the futility and ignorance in that and then it is gone….

Dear Ana...may one politely suggest a rereading of my dear friend Paul's post's with perhaps an unbiased eye in light of the above statement...which in an of it's self denies the very issue of comparison/competition! For in the looking you will find them rife with the the very self same issues...so what's the point?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #199
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5770 posts in this forum Offline

Ana Flavia Lucus:

I edited out the comment about two women being gulled sited by Mr Davidson almost immediately because I realized it was saying something I didn't intend to say. He even edited the original quote by removing "and maybe some others". I referenced two women in the original post because two women did support him. They were the only ones supporting him when I wrote the post. That's all. But by changing my original quote he made it seem like I was saying something else. Paul Daividson is basically dishonest.

If you go to the post you will see that the edit was done long before Mr. Davidson posted his comment about it. Obviously, he copied and saved and edited it for later use. He knows that but he is the kind of person that will use any weapon he can to strike out at someone who disagrees with him.

Ms. Lucus, let's say for the sake of discussion that Mr. Davidson is free, passionate, creative and sincere. Non of that makes him correct. You could have said the same about Saddam Hussein. My objection to Mr. Davidson is that he casually refutes and minimizes K without a speck of evidence. Also Mr. Davidson seems to post whatever he is thinking whether it has anything to do with K or not. How can you learn about K from a man who, himself, doesn't seem to be particularly interested in what K said? Read his posts with an open mind and see what you see.

And, of course, he isn't at all free. He is completely imprisoned by his endless ideas, beliefs and philosophies. He flits from subject to subject like a hummingbird gone nuts in a garden. It seems he never let's up long enough to "quiet his mind and to observe," to quote K.

If Mr Davidson has gulled you with his tendency to post nearly every thought that passes through his mind then it is not because you are a woman but because you are gullible.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 15 Sep 2011.

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #200
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Paul's admirers are mostly women, Ana, sylvia, Julian, Julia and mina too, I am feeling jealous! What an appeal in writings!

I don't know

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #201
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5770 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

'K expected that the artificial intelligence of computers would replace the human brain.'
This can still happen Paul.May be he was ahead of our time.Personally I think this is quite likely to happen.

Mr Davidson wrote in response to Mr Kapila: It sounds like science-fiction tome, Kapila. Did you see the film "I Robot" or "Terminator"?
At the time K was writing such stuff he was influenced by a small group of scientists and naively sociologistic thinkers who put before him the contemporary wisdom in liberal academic circles that with the new age we were moving into a period of increased leisure where entertainment would replace work as the main preoccupation for filling one's time. I was at university during that time and remember the ideological perspective well. The imminent new age of leisure did not materialise. Instead we got Regan and Thatcher!
But no sensible and informed scientist today predicts such 'Brave New World' stuff. Incidentally, it is possible K was also drawn to the prognostications of Aldous Huxley,with whom he also spent considerable time. Huxley's dystopias had quite an appeal back then.

My response to Mr Davidson:
Mr Davidson, you wanted proof that you said Huxley may have influenced K about K's remarks concerning computers replacing the human brain. I am completely satisfied that your above statement supports my statement. I am referring to your post 185 on this thread. Please send your $1000 to the following:

Krishnamurti Foundation of America
PO Box 1560
Ojai, CA 93024-0763

On behalf of the KFA I thank you.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 15 Sep 2011.

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #202
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
So, I guess what you are trying to do is to trap me into a discussion on abstractions, Rick.

Well Paul..in an attempt to explore the fundamental questions which point to conditioned reaction using an open ended approach is not a trap..it is an attempt to look together at the issue without conclusions..perhaps if we stop projecting..and guessing at motivation..we may be able to actually hear?

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #203
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
Paul's admirers are mostly women, Ana, sylvia, Julian, Julia and mina too, I am feeling jealous! What an appeal in writings!

LOL! Good one D:)

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #204
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
My response to Mr Davidson:
Mr Davidson, you wanted proof that you said Huxley may have influenced K about K's remarks concerning computers replacing the human brain. I am completely satisfied that your above statement comfirms my statement. Please send your $1000 to the following:

:)

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #205
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
I'll pay $1,000 into the Ojai appeal if you can quote me on that. Otherwise, Jack, you may have to eat humble pie and admit you are wrong.

i am a little low on cash this month...can I get a check too? Also what type of ice cream would you care for on your pie? As far as admitting you were wrong[mistaken] well..we just won't hold are breath now will we?

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #206
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5770 posts in this forum Offline

Mr Lein: I apologize for my part in temporarily hijacking (no pun intended) your thread. I think there is a better purpose for this site than to rail at each other. If we see who we really are through our relationship with others, even if that relationship is acrimonious, then maybe it was worth the time out of our lives. It has been fun. Now I hope we can move on to more serious discussions which are not ego based and personal. Peace

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #207
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
Mr Lein: I apologize for my part in temporarily hijacking (no pun intended) your thread. I think there is a better purpose for this site than to rail at each other.

No apologies needed my friend..it is as it is! Most if not all these threads tend to get caught up in tangents..well after all I do learn about Rick in them which is why I am here!Peace:)

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Fri, 16 Sep 2011 #208
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Yes, exactly, and why not? I personally prefer to answer questions where the questioner is interested to find something out, not merely to prove their own points.

Could this be why you never seem willing to question your own assumptions?

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Fri, 16 Sep 2011 #209
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

dhirendra singh wrote:
Paul's admirers are mostly women, Ana, sylvia, Julian, Julia and mina too, I am feeling jealous! What an appeal in writings!

I too am an admirer of Pauls posts and see the fire.

He moves with the motion of heavenly girls and youths, of wild beasts. Long- hair, reading their minds, is their sweet, their most exciting friend.
The Long - haired Ascetic.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Fri, 16 Sep 2011 #210
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Mr Davidson:

Lost:(

gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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