Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Is the world crumbling?


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Thu, 22 Sep 2011 #1
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

It has been put thus: The world is crumbling. Humans are destroying the planet. We are facing extinction.

Something real is certainly being pointed to, but has it been put correctly and, what are our responsibilities?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 23 Sep 2011 #2
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Is it the world that is crumbling or is it human society?

My observation is that society is in a permanent state of disintegration. In fact society is the organisation of disintegration. If human beings were integrated then they would create an integrated society, a society that was itself an integrating force. But as it is, we have created a society that manages our state of inward disintegration, manages and ameliorates where necessary, the effects of that fragmentation.

As far back as I can see through my own study, society has been in this state of constant disintegration at the centre and renewal from the edges - a process of reactive reformation. The state of crumbling is not new but a permanent feature. And we must ask, what are our responsibilities towards this? Do we try to save society, stop the crumbling, or do we step out of the whole business?

So, we have to ask, what is this society and what should be the relationship to it of one who is seeking a revolutionary change?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 23 Sep 2011 #3
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Is it the world that is crumbling or is it human society?

Nothing is "Crumbling". Crumbling implies one's logic is crumbling.
World is a projection of the "Mind". If one perceives that "World" is crumbling, then it is one"s mind that is crumbling.

What is your perception?

Regards
Sunyata

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Sat, 24 Sep 2011 #4
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

sunyata sunyata wrote:
Nothing is "Crumbling". Crumbling implies one's logic is crumbling.
World is a projection of the "Mind". If one perceives that "World" is crumbling, then it is one"s mind that is crumbling.

What is your perception?

all is fine...we are all happy shiny little people , and the elites are here to protect us, we can keep sleeping all is fine.There are no more people killed in wars, in starvation, no one is tortured ,there is no more psychological everyday tortures at work and we are all good and nice x 7 billions.....that is heaven

nothing is crumbling:)

Dan.....

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Sat, 24 Sep 2011 #5
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Muad dhib wrote:
all is fine...we are all happy shiny little people

My poor sense of diction does not allow me sometimes to determine what is irony and what is sarcasm, Dan, but I guess they are there in equal measure in your response. Yes, we are in a mess. It's just that I doubt if things were ever very much otherwise. It seems to me that the only thing changing, heating up, is the velocity of that mess. The scientists at Serne just discovered that particles CAN travel faster than the speed of light, in which case, we have some ways to go before we reach our limit.

Now, what do I do? Do I dig in my heels, put on the brakes, or break loose?

If society is rotten, should I let it blow itself to hell?

One thing I will not do is join some Jahova's Witnesses death sect and predict that the end is nigh. It is not.

But, what attitude to take towards the crumbling of society, which is constantly decaying from the centre and spreading outwards from the edges, like some sort of . . . ringworm? Is that it? Is society a species of funghi growing on the skin of this beautiful planet?

In which case I wish it well, and its crumbling!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 24 Sep 2011 #6
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Muad dhib wrote:
all is fine...we are all happy shiny little people

My poor sense of diction does not allow me sometimes to determine what is irony and what is sarcasm, Dan, but I guess they are there in equal measure in your response. Yes, we are in a mess. It's just that I doubt if things were ever very much otherwise. It seems to me that the only thing changing, heating up, is the velocity of that mess. The scientists at Serne just discovered that particles CAN travel faster than the speed of light, in which case, we have some ways to go before we reach our limit.

Now, what do I do? Do I dig in my heels, put on the brakes, or break loose?

If society is rotten, should I let it blow itself to hell?

One thing I will not do is join some Jahova's Witnesses death sect and predict that the end is nigh. It is not.

But, what attitude to take towards the crumbling of society, which is constantly decaying from the centre and spreading outwards from the edges, like some sort of . . . ringworm? Is that it? Is society a species of funghi growing on the skin of this beautiful planet?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 25 Sep 2011 #7
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

It does not need specialists to tell us an obvious fact: that society is disintegrating, crumbling. So there must be new builders to create a new social order; the new structure must be built on a new foundation. The new architects are not the politicians of the left or of the right, nor are they any party specialists. The new architects must be you and me, the individual. To look to authority, to leaders, is to sustain disintegration. Through self-knowledge, you and I must rediscover lasting values; they must be newly discovered by each one.

So, you and I must become creative because the problem is urgent. You and I must be aware of the causes of the collapse of society, and build a new structure whose foundation is based on our creative understanding. This creative understanding is negative thinking, and negative thinking is the highest form of meditation. To understand what is creative thinking, we must approach the problem negatively. A positive approach to a problem is imitative and therefore disintegrating. For understanding comes not through any positive system or positive formula or conclusion, but through negative understanding.

One of the fundamental reasons for the disintegration of society is that you, as an individual, have been imitative outwardly and inwardly - outwardly the mere cultivation of technique, and inwardly copying, which comes from fear and the desire to be secure.
Krishnamurti, 2nd Talk in Bombay, Jan 25, 1948

The above is exactly what I was pointing out in an earlier post on a different thread. It is obvious. And, of course, things have got considerably worse since 1948. Now, can we let this absurd question that started this thread die a natural death and move on to something serious?

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Sun, 25 Sep 2011 #8
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
The new architects are not the politicians of the left or of the right, nor are they any party specialists. The new architects must be you and me, the individual. To look to authority, to leaders, is to sustain disintegration. Through self-knowledge, you and I must rediscover lasting values; they must be newly discovered by each one.

:)....

there must be so the personal revolution then it may or not spread...

the question of the how, in my view ,need to be asked .
If there is no how ,then we shall stop doing what we do here and elsewhere , and wait for the miracle to come..

Now beyond wishes ,there is a doing , some acting , from what background are we going to do that..? Working for a solution or drowning into the problem without seeking for a solution but just knowing that the problem must be entirely known ?

Like we seem not to find a way out sorrow , analysing brings nothing effective ...

Dan.....

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Mon, 26 Sep 2011 #9
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Muad dhib wrote:
the question of the how, in my view ,need to be asked .
If there is no how ,then we shall stop doing what we do here and elsewhere , and wait for the miracle to come..
Now beyond wishes ,there is a doing , some acting , from what background are we going to do that..? Working for a solution

Mr. Muad, is there anything to be done? Who is it that works for a solution? Is the wanting a solution the result of desire? Can the center invented by thought, which is experience and knowledge as memory and which is the past, see the present? Can we give up all of our ideas, our dreams and hopes without any expectation of a result, of a reward and just live? That's the challenge I was referring to in another post. If you are not comfortable with the word challenge then pick your own word, or pick nothing at all.

Mr Muad wrote:

"...or drowning into the problem without seeking for a solution but just knowing that the problem must be entirely known?"

Jack Pine wrote: I think you have asked a very good question but I would leave out the "must be". Can we just watch without the center, which is the past, interfering and without wanting or expecting any result?

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Mon, 26 Sep 2011 #10
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
The above is exactly what I was pointing out in an earlier post on a different thread. It is obvious. And, of course, things have got considerably worse since 1948.

It is not at all obvious to me Jack. You should explain it out in your own words instead of relying on K. Why do you think the world is crumbling and humans are faced with extinction, which was your original claim?

K said that society is crumbling and I agree with that. I can see that. But what I see is that the essence of society lies in its state of constantly crumbling at the centre and reforming at the periphery, ever moving outwards and mutating at the edges. This is not a new thing. Just look at the ancient world, Babylonia, Greece and Rome, it was happening then. The process has also been constantly speeding up as societies have become more complex.

Yet nothing leads me to conclude that human society is crumbling in the sense of there being an immanent final collapse and mass extinction of the human species, which you claim. It is that claim I dispute, not K's teaching. The urgency we face is not that. The urgency we face is to UNDERSTAND and to understand our responsibilities to the facts.

All talk of 'watching without a centre' is intellectual bullshit as, if you have a centre you will INEVITABLY watch from it. So, then what is our responsibility?

I do not think the questions are 'absurd.' Neither do I think the answers 'obvious.'

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 27 Sep 2011 #11
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
All talk of 'watching without a centre' is intellectual bullshit as, if you have a centre you will INEVITABLY watch from it. So, then what is our responsibility?

I do not think the questions are 'absurd.' Neither do I think the answers 'obvious.'

My ears fly open, my eye opens, as does this light fixed in my heart. My mind flies up straining in to the distance. What shall I say? What shall i think?
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Tue, 27 Sep 2011 #12
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
What shall I say? What shall i think?

It shall be said, it shall be thought, in spite of you and because of you. Let the mind strain. Probably it needs the exercise. Unfix even the light. Let it ride the storm with you like dice on the gambler's table.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 27 Sep 2011 #13
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
'watching without a centre'

Paul Davidson wrote:
Unfix even the light.

That is what it is telling.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #14
Thumb_295902_10150361346929121_667049120_8087939_521721644_n Angel Miolan Dominican Republic 179 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
All talk of 'watching without a centre' is intellectual bullshit as, if you have a centre you will INEVITABLY watch from it. So, then what is our responsibility?]

Hi Paul: I think we can’t face our responsibilities if we are inevitably condemn to watch and move from the centre, because our first responsibility is to be open to a profound change on the limitations of our centered conditioned mind. The center, the “I” obstruct the possibility to observe and understand reality in a proper manner. I want to tell you is not bullshit as you said. Watching and living without a center is a state of mind perfectly possible. And a condition absolutely necessary to transform the individuals and the way they relate with other individuals on our planet..

lobo de la estepa

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #15
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Angel Miolan wrote:
Watching and living without a center is a state of mind perfectly possible. And a condition absolutely necessary to transform the individuals and the way they relate with other individuals on our planet..

It may be so or it may not be so, Angel. But what is bullshit is talking about it as if is already happening, when it is clearly not. What I said was bullshit is not the living of it but the talking up of it.

First be without a centre and then tell me about absolutely necessary conditions. Otherwise all we are doing here is parading our intellectual understandings. That is what is bullshit.

But look at this: Jack was asking (advising) Dan, "Can we just watch without the center, which is the past, interfering and without wanting or expecting any result?" And what is it he wishes us to observe, 'without a centre?' . . . a state which he describes as the world crumbling threatening the extinction of humanity - a state which he says is 'obvious' and which is 'absurd' to question.

And I say that Jack's statements 'obviously' come from someone observing from a centre, which is therefore an absurd position from which to preach egolessness.

Jack refuses point blank to accept my questions and explain his wild and fear-drenched statements. That is up to him. I leave it alone.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #16
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

My own finding is that the world is not crumbling and humanity is not faced with extinction. Please someone explain to me why I am wrong in this. What am I missing?

And please don't say it is obvious because K said so and so. Tell me in your own words. Present some evidence. After all, if it is true, I better sit up and take notice!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Fri, 30 Sep 2011.

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #17
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Angel Miolan wrote:
our first responsibility is to be open to a profound change on the limitations of our centered conditioned mind.

Am I open to that if I have already reached an intellectual conclusion about it? Is it not still the centred conditioned mind that is making such a statement?

Anyone who says they are "open to a profound change . . . " is clearly lying to me and to themselves. It is a statement about becoming. We are not open now but we are open to becoming open. Isn't that it?

Angel, you make the word 'responsibility' sound like a moral imperative. I want to know what my responsibility is NOW. What am I able to respond to NOW, not, I should have an open mind. And I can only find this out by actually observing myself, through my daily interactions. And in doing so I find that I am incapable, as mind is presently configured, to observe without a centre, and I am incapable also of being open to a profound change. I am not open. I do have a centre. THAT and only that is the starting point. No, not a starting point, it IS the point.

And, not 'first responsibility,' but 'responsibility.'

So, to know what is my responsibility is to observe in what way I am able to respond, in actuality. How do I actually respond to the statement, "The world is crumbling?" for example. Not to put upon me some false responsibility about stopping the world from crumbling by observing without a centre, which is vacuous and impossible.

My centre responded to that statement by questioning it.

The problem in many of these discussions is that we rush in to give easy K answers, as if we are already there. We are using/misusing the teaching to create many more illusions than we are destroying. This is how religions begin. Do you see?

We must begin from where we actually are.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Fri, 30 Sep 2011.

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #18
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Look, I have this 'problem,' this fact that there is a centre, that I operate from a centre. Actually I do not KNOW that it is a problem but I am told so. So I say, OK, I act from a centre, what is my responsibility. And I am told, observe without a centre. But I AM the centre. There is no such mystical entity as 'I' that can observe without a centre. All observation is from the centre.

So, all I am able to do is to observe the action of that centre. Observe the action that arises from that centre. And, that observation of the centre IS the centre observing itself. There is no other entity that I am aware of, no separate observer . . . unless I dream one up, which would still be an action of the centre.

Either the centre is able to respond (response-ability) to all this concern by observing itself, or it is not. That is all.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Fri, 30 Sep 2011.

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

The astrophysicist, Stephen Hawking, says that our only chance for long-term survival is to move away from Earth and begin to inhabit far-flung planets.

Stephen Hawking has warned that humans will only survive if we leave Earth and venture into space

‘I see great danger for the human race,’ he said. ‘There have been a number of times in the past when survival has been a question of touch and go.

‘The Cuban missile crisis in 1963 is one of these. The frequency of such occasions is likely to increase in the future. We shall need great care and judgment to negotiate them all successfully.

In addition, for anyone who is interested in Global Climate Change I refer you to James Hansen, head of the Goddard Space Institute which is connected to the American Space exploration organization know as NASA. Mr. Hansen is a scientist and professor and is one of the world's leading climatologists. He pioneered the studies that lead to the realization of Global Climate Change.

Obvious anyone who doubts that the earth is being over taxed by human society is either in denial or fairly obtuse. We, the people of the earth, have an ever growing population that we can't feed, the availability of potable, clean water is disappearing at an alarming rate. The oceans are becoming toxic and we are also over-fishing it. I could go on and on. The examples are endless. Politicians in every government are corrupt and fairly stupid. Which is adding tremendously to finding a solution to the problems facing the earth. Corrupt politicians aren't a any thing new but the impact is much more far-reaching in this modern world.

I am not a librarian so I am not going to provide you with reference material other than the Hawking piece. Look it up yourselves. It will mean more if you find out for yourselves.

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #20
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
My own finding is that the world is not crumbling and humanity is not faced with extinction. Please someone explain to me why I am wrong in this. What am I missing?

May I suggest that what you are missing is an almost complete inability to view objectively anything you disagree with. Your own findings my ass.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 30 Sep 2011.

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #21
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
Stephen Hawking has warned that humans will only survive if we leave Earth and venture into space

that is the best sad joke of the day for me :)
and then we will destruct space and then? hawking has nothing to say and well he says it. he added if we survive 200 years...and bla bla bla..my advice to hawkings : we already are in the space....

Dan.....

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #22
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
May I suggest that what you are missing is an almost complete inability to view objectively anything you disagree with.

Another lovely sweeping statement, Jack. It is your ability to dazzle us with your broad brush which makes us so sure that what you say is so obvious it should never be disagreed with.

But let us look at what you said in the first of your two posts with an eye that is trying hard to feign the objectivity it so obviously lacks:

Well I asked you to put things in your own words and you refer me to two scientists, refer but with no references.

Yes, Hawking has said some things, as has Lovelock (Guia Hypothesis). Actually Lovelock says that in one hundred years there will be only a few scattered human communities at the poles. Hawking has his own take. But neither project the demise of the human species, nor does anyone else I have read, and I have read failure widely (and wildly).

I will look at Hansen. I doubt (but do not totally discount) that he said what you said he said, that Earth will be dead and humans should go inhabit someplace else. He may have said that. Should I trust him?

Look Jack, you say it is plainly obvious, and you quote a couple of guys. I would ask, if it is scientifically obvious that we are all doomed, how come it is not mainstream? I mean, is there a scientific consensus or are you quoting a couple of potheads you have read WHO JACK PINE AGREES WITH?

I suggest it is the later. There is no consensus on this Jack, but plenty of loony-tunes out there waiting to jump on any The End Of The World Is Nigh bandwagon that happens by.

Most of the issues you refer to such as oceanic pollution, over-fishing, desertification and overpopulation are true enough BUT they neither imply that "the world is crumbling" nor that "humanity is doomed as a species."

Probably humanity will face some catastrophic crises if we carry on as we are doing, but even in the worst scenarios it will not mean the end of the species. As for space colonisation, this is cloud-cuckoo sci-fi nonsense . . . unless the Chinese . . . but no, I at least will not speculate on that.

As for the Cuban Missile Crisis: Would that have spelt the end of the human race? For heaven's sake Jack, I know that K said negative thinking is the highest form of thinking, but even at the height of the Cold War humans lacked the capacity for their own extermination, as a species. It would have been a cataclysm, but nothing like the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs. We do not have that much power.

Science is STILL divided, even on the overall effects of climate change. Not that many disagree there is such a thing but that many point to the incredibly complex number of variables that allow the Earth to make adjustments. Also, many point out that carbon dioxide makes up such a small percentage of the air that water vapour, which is a far greater percentage, has a much greater effect on climate change. I won't go into the debate about this but I tell you that I met several full-time staff during my stay at the K Centre in the UK who tried to persuade me of that argument.

I cannot say what is factual and what is not, Jack. To me it is not 'obvious.' So I continue to question it.

But this is not my impulse for self-enquiry, Jack. For me, self-enquiry has no such motive. It is about my own sanity, wholeness, and how adequately I am able to respond to the demands of that. And I will not be driven to respond by emotive and fear-ridden hypotheses about the end of the world.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #23
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Canadian Arctic Loses Nearly Entire Ice Shelf
Two ice shelves that existed before Canada was settled by Europeans diminished significantly this northern summer, one nearly disappearing altogether, Canadian scientists say in newly published research.

In this July 10, 2008 photo, ice floes float in Baffin Bay above the arctic circle seen from the Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker Louis S. St-Laurent. Two ice shelves that existed before Canada was settled by Europeans diminished significantly this northern summer, one nearly disappearing altogether, Canadian scientists say in newly published research. (AP Photo/The Canadian Press, Jonathan Hayward) The loss is important as a marker of global warming, returning the Canadian Arctic to conditions that date back thousands of years, scientists say.

Floating icebergs that have broken free as a result pose a risk to offshore oil facilities and potentially to shipping lanes.

The breaking apart of the ice shelves also reduces the environment that supports microbial life, and changes the look of Canada's coastline.

Luke Copland, an associate professor in the geography department at the University of Ottawa co-authored the research published on Carleton University's website.

He said the Serson Ice Shelf shrank from 205 square kilometers to two remnant sections five years ago, and was further diminished this past summer

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #24
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Muad dhib wrote:
we already are in the space....

Since the shuttle project was shut down, and today the US' last remaining particle accelerator has been shut down I do not think leaving the planet is a viable option . . . unless the Chinese take us there. As you say Dan, we are already in space. There is oodles of it here on Earth!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #25
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack thank you for posting the above, and, a serious question. What do you get from the article you have published above on the Arctic ice-pack? What are the implications you are pointing to?

I will ask a couple of questions in this regard. What are you saying about the cause of this melting? And, what are you saying about the effects?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #26
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack, I do really want to hear from you more about the ice-cap issue but I've been doing some research on this top-scientist you mentioned, James Hansen, head of NASA's Goddard Space Institute and even listened to some of his lectures and I ask, do you know who you are dealing with there?

This guy Hansen advocates nuclear power as pivotal for America's future. He argues that the present day second generation reactors are inexpensive and comparable to coal, economically. He argues that what prevents nuclear from taking off is bad regulation which snarls up planning procedures for years through giving the public too much say. He argues that, left up to experts, we could get nuclear plants through planning in one year rather than seven. He holds the UK up as a shining example of this. He says that the US could be exporting round the world, especially to China and India, which, he alleges, are much bigger polluters than the US.

Frankly, the guy hasn't a clue to what is ACTUALLY happening on the issue here in the UK and, after the disaster in Japan, I think . . . .well, I wont say what I think.

Here is an article by Hansen:

James Hansen: The kind of nuclear power we have now is called second-generation nuclear power. It's comparable in cost to coal. Once you have the nuclear power plant, then the fuel is very inexpensive, so nuclear power is quite inexpensive. But it's difficult in the United States to get a nuclear power plant built, and it takes so many years that it drives the cost up. So now in England they've realized that they will need to have nuclear power in the future, so they've put a limit -- once a government commission decides on where the power plants will be built, the public will have one year to object to this and possibly get some changes. But they can't drag it out six or seven years, the way it happens in the United States, because that drives up the price tremendously.

And there's also the possibility for fourth-generation nuclear power. That's a technology which allows you to burn all of the nuclear fuel. Presently, nuclear power plants burn less than 1 percent of the energy in the nuclear fuel. Fourth-generation nuclear power allows the neutrons to move faster, so it can burn all of the fuel. Furthermore, it can burn nuclear waste, so it can solve the nuclear waste problem. And the United States is still the technology leader in fourth-generation nuclear power. In 1994, Argonne National Laboratory, now called Idaho National Laboratory, was ready to build a fourth-generation nuclear power plant, but the Clinton-Gore administration canceled that research because of the antinuclear sentiments in the Democratic Party. Well, we still have the best expertise in that technology, and we should develop it because it's something we could also sell to China and India, because they're going to need nuclear power. They are not going to be able to get all of their energy from the sun and from the wind.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #27
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

And dammit, I do question the research on carbon emission. I question the assumptions that form the basis of the computer models which correlate temperature change to atmospheric carbon as a one-way causal street, and which project rises in sea levels of 100 metres in the next period.

I am not questioning that there is a man-made effect but I am questioning exactly what that effect is and also what economic interests are exploiting the issues for their own future rewards. Those oil giants know the sticky resin will run out and they want to scare us to accept the unacceptable, the nuclear option, as the only possible alternative, and they are prepared to smash through the democratic process to get their way.

So, I do not trust them.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #28
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
I am not questioning that there is a man-made effect but I am questioning exactly what that effect is and also what economic interests are exploiting the issues for their own future rewards. Those oil giants know the sticky resin will run out and they want to scare us to accept the unacceptable, the nuclear option, as the only possible alternative, and they are prepared to smash through the democratic process to get their way.

Paul I do see that as you do.

An intelligent man would have been staying in a locally diversified farming society...
science as a tool has no much global clue at all..science is disconnected from life , so in itself has no meaning , so it is creating a meaning according to what it knows , and all what it knows is square houses when the earth is round, the circle was sacred for the Indian civilization....the high number of people on earth for me on the contrary is our luck , for the first time in millennium it is possible to see how wrong we are, there is enough for all, only the waste from the usa could nourished the world ,which is not what has to be done at all, just to mention that this country which 5% of earth population is burning 40% of earth resources...then europe is not that far...and all countries are willing to get their big huge commercial centres where you need a 30min drive to get there ,when you need a 1 h drive to go to work, with so many jobs totally useless those days...

with the end of oil it is going to be the end of the empire which has military bases everywhere and of the zionist project too ,both are totally linked , so link that we don't see which is leading the other.. to end this insanity intelligently would be ....intelligent..having said that, the problem of man is global of course...some help from mother nature would be appreciate :)...
I may retire near my favourites mountains all we have to do , is very little indeed...paul when the mountain will talk to me I will let it go :)

By the way my last one , he is 7 ,was stuck by the fact of death yesterday , as I am the child minder and we are so close he was projecting my death , and he said : not good , sad ! then we did not say much , but only facts , he stayed with the fact that death is like a nose in the middle of the face , it is there, without death no life...he is 7 , then he got a book and went reading it ,having some kids' fun ....I will see this morning if he tells more, if not I won't bring it back...kids are surprising sometimes , adults very seldom...so predictable...as any machine...
ps..today the little one is fine , his yesterday sad problem with the end , is not upsetting him at all, it will come back of course...later on..:) then we will drown again into it...if the feeling is it can be done, pushing could be a major dangerous mistake...

Dan.....

This post was last updated by Muad dhib (account deleted) Sat, 01 Oct 2011.

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #29
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine: When what was suppose to be the "greatest country in the world", the United States, is taken over by a corporate oligarchy, as it has been, then this surely is an example of a crumbling world. What is happening here is also happening around the world. Please read the article and consider how this might effect you no matter where you live on the earth. Because it will sooner or later.

Posted on Sep 29, 2011

AP / Louis Lanzano
Protesters march past Federal Hall on Wall Street on Monday. The Occupy Wall Street protest is in its second week in New York City as demonstrators speak out against corporate greed and social inequality.

By Chris Hedges

There are no excuses left. Either you join the revolt taking place on Wall Street and in the financial districts of other cities across the country or you stand on the wrong side of history. Either you obstruct, in the only form left to us, which is civil disobedience, the plundering by the criminal class on Wall Street and accelerated destruction of the ecosystem that sustains the human species, or become the passive enabler of a monstrous evil. Either you taste, feel and smell the intoxication of freedom and revolt or sink into the miasma of despair and apathy. Either you are a rebel or a slave.

To be declared innocent in a country where the rule of law means nothing, where we have undergone a corporate coup, where the poor and working men and women are reduced to joblessness and hunger, where war, financial speculation and internal surveillance are the only real business of the state, where even habeas corpus no longer exists, where you, as a citizen, are nothing more than a commodity to corporate systems of power, one to be used and discarded, is to be complicit in this radical evil. To stand on the sidelines and say “I am innocent” is to bear the mark of Cain; it is to do nothing to reach out and help the weak, the oppressed and the suffering, to save the planet. To be innocent in times like these is to be a criminal. Ask Tim DeChristopher.

Choose. But choose fast. The state and corporate forces are determined to crush this. They are not going to wait for you. They are terrified this will spread. They have their long phalanxes of police on motorcycles, their rows of white paddy wagons, their foot soldiers hunting for you on the streets with pepper spray and orange plastic nets. They have their metal barricades set up on every single street leading into the New York financial district, where the mandarins in Brooks Brothers suits use your money, money they stole from you, to gamble and speculate and gorge themselves while one in four children outside those barricades depend on food stamps to eat. Speculation in the 17th century was a crime. Speculators were hanged. Today they run the state and the financial markets. They disseminate the lies that pollute our airwaves. They know, even better than you, how pervasive the corruption and theft have become, how gamed the system is against you, how corporations have cemented into place a thin oligarchic class and an obsequious cadre of politicians, judges and journalists who live in their little gated Versailles while 6 million Americans are thrown out of their homes, a number soon to rise to 10 million, where a million people a year go bankrupt because they cannot pay their medical bills and 45,000 die from lack of proper care, where real joblessness is spiraling to over 20 percent, where the citizens, including students, spend lives toiling in debt peonage, working dead-end jobs, when they have jobs, a world devoid of hope, a world of masters and serfs.

The only word these corporations know is more. They are disemboweling every last social service program funded by the taxpayers, from education to Social Security, because they want that money themselves. Let the sick die. Let the poor go hungry. Let families be tossed in the street. Let the unemployed rot. Let children in the inner city or rural wastelands learn nothing and live in misery and fear. Let the students finish school with no jobs and no prospects of jobs. Let the prison system, the largest in the industrial world, expand to swallow up all potential dissenters. Let torture continue. Let teachers, police, firefighters, postal employees and social workers join the ranks of the unemployed. Let the roads, bridges, dams, levees, power grids, rail lines, subways, bus services, schools and libraries crumble or close. Let the rising temperatures of the planet, the freak weather patterns, the hurricanes, the droughts, the flooding, the tornadoes, the melting polar ice caps, the poisoned water systems, the polluted air increase until the species dies.

Who the hell cares? If the stocks of ExxonMobil or the coal industry or Goldman Sachs are high, life is good. Profit. Profit. Profit. That is what they chant behind those metal barricades. They have their fangs deep into your necks. If you do not shake them off very, very soon they will kill you. And they will kill the ecosystem, dooming your children and your children’s children. They are too stupid and too blind to see that they will perish with the rest of us. So either you rise up and supplant them, either you dismantle the corporate state, for a world of sanity, a world where we no longer kneel before the absurd idea that the demands of financial markets should govern human behavior, or we are frog-marched toward self-annihilation.

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Those on the streets around Wall Street are the physical embodiment of hope. They know that hope has a cost, that it is not easy or comfortable, that it requires self-sacrifice and discomfort and finally faith. They sleep on concrete every night. Their clothes are soiled. They have eaten more bagels and peanut butter than they ever thought possible. They have tasted fear, been beaten, gone to jail, been blinded by pepper spray, cried, hugged each other, laughed, sung, talked too long in general assemblies, seen their chants drift upward to the office towers above them, wondered if it is worth it, if anyone cares, if they will win. But as long as they remain steadfast they point the way out of the corporate labyrinth. This is what it means to be alive. They are the best among us.

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #30
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack, if you ever venture outside of the US you may be in for an even greater shock. Not everyone on this planet actually shares that strange belief that the US was 'supposed to be the greatest country in the world.' And quite a few people think the opposite.

But I do feel your pain.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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