Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Is the world crumbling?


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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #31
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5770 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Jack, if you ever venture outside of the US you may be in for an even greater shock. Not everyone on this planet actually shares that strange belief that the US was 'supposed to be the greatest country in the world.' And quite a few people think the opposite.

That's why I put it in quotes. I don't believe it either. You really are obtuse. You're like a child in your critizisms. Why don't you try to understand what I posted instead and yet another infantile response on a minor point?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 01 Oct 2011.

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #32
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
Why don't you try to understand what I posted instead and yet another infantile response on a minor point?

Jack, no amount of trying will help me understand what you posted. It was a piece of emotional political diatribe by a bunch of pseudo-anarchists. It's simply not for me. Call me any name you want, it doesn't help.

But I asked you specific questions about the other article you posted on arctic ice-melt. I asked your opinion about the cause and about the effect. You have not answered. So I do not know what you want to say about it. I do not know how it relates to your contention that the world is crumbling and humanity faces extinction.

And I also await your response to my point about your NASA guy, James Hansen, that he is actually a major advocate for the nuclear industry, for the limitation of democracy, for space colonisation using plutonium-powered craft, and for US economic domination of India and China.

By the way, the fact that he is head of the Goddard Space Institute affords him little credibility in my eyes. In fact the guy he replaced refuted everything he has said on the issue. Hansen himself was a major fan of Margaret Thatcher.

So I still say nothing is as obvious as you make it out to be. Fear-motivated activism will not bring us freedom. It will not stop society crumbling. It is part of the crumbling.

I don't care if society crumbles. That is not the point.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #33
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Otherwise all we are doing here is parading our intellectual understandings. That is what is bullshit.

Very kind of you to be so inclusive Paul..and use we...LOL..moment of truth!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #34
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
but even at the height of the Cold War humans lacked the capacity for their own extermination, as a species. It would have been a cataclysm, but nothing like the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs. We do not have that much power.

In 1963 there were enough nuclear weapons to destroy life as we know it an estimated 15 times over.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #35
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
And I say that Jack's statements 'obviously' come from someone observing from a centre, which is therefore an absurd position from which to preach egolessness.

Are you any different..ask yourself that question Paul? Who among us is in the position to preach/teach another according to our conclusions...from this center which is conditioning?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #36
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
In 1963 there were enough nuclear weapons to destroy life as we know it an estimated 15 times over.

Well, I guess if you put everyone in the one place you could kill them one thousand times over. Point is Rick, that we are spread out. Nuclear war would have had a devastating effect but to say it would have led to extinction of life (even 'as we know it') 15 times over is probably using statistics in the wrong way.

And we would have still had the roaches! Do you think that fifteen million years from now a breed of super-intelligent roaches would be running the place? Would they have Kinfonet? Would anyone tell the difference?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #37
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
Are you any different..ask yourself that question Paul? Who among us is in the position to preach/teach another according to our conclusions...from this center which is conditioning?

Very good point Rick. And I say so with no bias whatsoever, especially as it was the exact same point I was making. Thanks.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #38
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
Very kind of you to be so inclusive Paul..and use we...LOL..moment of truth!

Bingo!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #39
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Muad dhib wrote:
Paul I do see that as you do, An intelligent man would have been staying in a locally diversified farming society...

This is what we are looking into too Dan. Maybe in the highlands of Brazil. Good luck to you when you make the move.

K said the purpose of culture is the total revolution of man. That's the kind of culture that needs building. Not the ever-crumbling thing we have now. Camping out on Wall Street isn't going to build it. Nuclear power isn't going to be the energy source. Fear won't be the motivation for it. Bitterness won't be the seed. Maybe love will have something to do with it, if we can get some.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Sat, 01 Oct 2011.

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Sun, 02 Oct 2011 #40
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Bingo!

Clear example of violation of copyright act!!!!

I don't know

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Sun, 02 Oct 2011 #41
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Fear-motivated activism will not bring us freedom. It will not stop society crumbling. It is part of the crumbling.

yes Paul...it is part of the crumbling , totally true for me..

i am not saying to do nothing at all because immediately we all be slaves but..there are many angles to our problems , problems we basically have no clue how to solve inside ,so outside too..

anyway , I always say : built the outer good society , the exact same work remains inside, nothing less , nothing more , well less scape goats perhaps...and we still don't open the right first door....out of fear,this is what creates insanity..

Dan.....

This post was last updated by Muad dhib (account deleted) Sun, 02 Oct 2011.

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Sun, 02 Oct 2011 #42
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Muad dhib wrote:
out of fear,this is what creates insanity..

Yes Dan, and look how fear, the Grim Reaper, moves so logically, methodologically.

War is the raw interface of different fears. It is the logical progression of cause and effect that is so frightening. In, your link ('insanity') about the bombing of Hiroshima, the Canadian author, Jack Powell doesn't get to finish two of the points he was making.

Firstly that Emperor Hirohito had already wired Truman accepting surrender, but with one condition, that he remained Emperor. Truman refused, dropped the bombs and AFTERWARDS accepted those same terms of surrender previously offered by Japan before the bombs.

Secondly, the reason to drop was to stop Russia in its tracks, especially from occupation of Manchuria. In other words, the US wanted to control China and its main challenger in this was its ally, the USSR. Well, the plan worked, sort of. Stalin pulled back and the US moved in.

But the US could not stay in China because her troops refused to obey orders. The 'Bring The Boys Home' movement did not allow the safe and protracted deployment of the massive numbers necessary. China was thereby overtaken not by an external communism but by its own grown.

But look at this link:http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 02 Oct 2011 #43
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5770 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
But I asked you specific questions about the other article you posted on arctic ice-melt. I asked your opinion about the cause and about the effect. You have not answered

And I won't answer it. Find out for yourself. You obviously lack a great deal of understanding of the modern world and it's problems. Which is obviously the result of a lack of a sufficient education. Perhaps you couldn't afford one. But I am not your teacher or your mentor. If you can't figure out how melting ice sheets influence climate than find out for yourself. I'll give you one hint: Check the word albedo and how it's being changed can effect the earth's temperature and climate patterns in general.

If you have asked any other questions that I haven't answered it's because I haven't read them. I never read past the first sentence or two of your long, hot air filled diatribes.

You can't seem to understand the point is not me but rather what I am posting to give examples of the world in a state of decay and disruption. I shouldn't have to spend any energy proving the world is crumbling. It's obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence and objectivity. If you don't see the problem then it can't be addressed.

Believe me, if you remain an obstructionist to change and leave these problems for your kids and grandkids to solve they will line up to piss on your grave. And rightly so.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 02 Oct 2011.

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Sun, 02 Oct 2011 #44
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5770 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I don't care if society crumbles. That is not the point.

You don't care if society crumbles? It is very much to point to those living in misery which is most of the world. You don't care who starves to death as long as you eat, right? You don't care who has to live in filth and poverty and endless suffering, as long as it isn't you. As long as everything is good for you screw the next generation, right? You don't care who lives in abject poverty as long as it is not you right? Yes, that is the point. What a nice guy you are. I think your attitude is very much the point and it reveals a lot about you.

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Sun, 02 Oct 2011 #45
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
your kids and grandkids . . . will line to piss on your grave. And rightly so.

There you go . . .trying to dazzle us with your charm once more.

David, for your information, the albedo effect, meaning the reflection of light/heat from the Earth into space, is not a major factor with regard to the Arctic ice-cap. Whereas, the Himalayan glacial ice is a much greater factor. Why is this? It is because the Arctic region gets very little sun (unlike the Himalayas) and therefore reflects little light/heat. You could have made a much stronger point if you'd have mentioned the Himalayan glaciers.

Additionally, If the arctic ice melts, what do you get . . . .water! And water, at the poles is more reflective PRECISELY because water deflects light mostly when that light approaches from a narrow angle, as it does at the poles. Water has a very low albedo rating in the tropics but much higher at the poles.

Thirdly, the main reason for the ice-cap melting is not directly 'global-waring' and certainly not carbon emissions. The pack is melting due to the increase of longer-lasting cloud formations over the region, during the spring season. Thus locking in heat. But those same cloud formations have a very high albedo rating. They reflect heat away from the planet into space. Clouds have one of the highest albedo ratings of all surfaces.

By the way, one of the highest albedo effects is from desserts. Desserts reflect most of the sun's light back into space. They are very useful. How come we want to preserve the ice but reforest the deserts. Forests absorb more heat than just about anything.

But maybe you have another point about the Arctic ice you'd like to share. Something else 'obvious.'

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 02 Oct 2011 #46
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

The article below shows that heat transference into space, at the Arctic, is mainly a result of radiation (infrared emission), not reflection (of sunlight - albedo effect). Humidity, not carbon, is the major variable.

Clouds — An Unwelcome Blanket for Arctic Sea Ice?
By Anthony Del Genio — February 2011

The climate of the Arctic appears to be extremely sensitive to human influences, but it is relatively poorly understood because it is poorly observed and involves interactions among the ocean, the overlying sea ice, snow resting on the sea ice, and the atmosphere above. Climate models predict significant future Arctic sea ice decline as the planet warms, but the models disagree over the rate at which this will occur, and the rate of sea ice retreat observed during the satellite era is actually faster than the model predictions, suggesting that the models do not adequately simulate the physical processes that regulate sea ice thickness and extent.

One of the best Arctic datasets we have was acquired over a decade ago during the Surface Heat Budget of the Arctic (SHEBA) field experiment, which deployed a variety of instruments on the ice north of Alaska for almost a year. We revisited the SHEBA dataset, focusing first on the Arctic winter when there is no sunlight and the ice is too cold to melt, to understand how winter weather "prepares" the sea ice for the spring melt season.

Most previous studies of the Arctic atmosphere focused on the monthly average climate and how it varied over the seasons. We found, however, that the Arctic atmosphere and its effect on the surface are very different depending on whether a storm is passing and skies are overcast or whether high pressure is in place and skies are mostly clear. Overcast skies act as a blanket that traps heat and warms the sea ice and snow, while clear skies allow heat to be radiated away to space, cooling the snow and sea ice. These effects are exaggerated in the Arctic because the cold air is too dry for water vapor molecules to trap much heat, and because the clear and cloudy episodes last longer than in other parts of the world, giving the snow and sea ice more chance to react.

The Arctic mostly oscillates between these two states in winter, spending little time in between. Thus, unlike the "bell" curve that describes grades on a test in a big class, where many students get grades close to the average grade, the average winter climate of the Arctic almost never occurs — it is almost always much colder or much warmer than the average, either losing heat or gaining heat.

This has several implications for predictions of future sea ice decline. In winter, the clear and cloudy states occur just often enough that sea ice temperature fluctuates between warm and cold but has no systematic upward or downward trend. In spring, however, cloudy conditions begin to dominate, causing temperatures to warm on average and move the ice closer to its melting temperature, even before the newly risen Sun is strong enough to matter. Thus, more persistent clouds as spring approaches may cause the sea ice to first reach its melting temperature at an earlier date, and more frequent Arctic clouds in a warmer climate might accelerate sea ice decline.

Thus, models that simulate the seasonal cycle of Arctic cloudiness incorrectly may also predict the wrong time of onset and duration of sea ice melting, perhaps explaining some of the spread in model predictions of the future and their overall underestimate of sea ice decline in recent decades.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 02 Oct 2011 #47
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

David, it is not a question of my not caring about the suffering of humanity. I am saying that there is nothing I can do, nor will attempt to do to stop this crumbling of this society.

From the beginning of this discussion you have confused the future of humanity with the future of this ever-crumbling society. These two futures, in my opinion, are diametrically opposed. You cannot promote humanity by reforming society. It is crumbling. Let it crumble. Here are some quotes from K on the matter. Elsewhere I have read him speak even more vehemently that society has to end for real culture to arise. Society must die for humanity to live. But please read:

"This structure has become so monstrous, and we have glorified our needs so fearfully that our needs for shelter, food, and sex - which are simple, natural, and clean - have become complicated and made hideous, cruel, appalling, by this colossal and ever -crumbling structure which we call society and which man has created."

"When a civilization is crumbling, is destroying itself, sane men who see they cannot do anything about it build a new one that will not burn. Surely, that is the only way to act, that is the only rational method - not merely to reform the old, to patch up the burning house."

"You want to do patchwork reform and that is why all these questions arise. Sir, you have to start anew. There can be no patchwork reform. Because the building is crumbling, the walls are giving way, there is fire destroying. You must leave the building and start anew in a different place, with different values, with different foundations."

"A house that is crumbling must be pulled down before you build. In the process of pulling down it looks rather chaotic and people who look at it from outside may say that it is chaotic, but the man who is pulling it down is not affected by it, because he knows what he is going to build."

"I think it is important for us when the world is going to pieces, there is such anarchy, when everything around us is crumbling, it behoves us as serious people, to know what it is that we want, what it is that we are seeking. Most of us seek physical security - money, job, a certain physical security; and there are others who don't care so much for physical security but they want psychological security, inward security and in the search of that security they fall into many traps: the do-gooders, the social workers, the narrow parochial sects, into a false sense of meditations, and so on and on and on. There are a great many traps around us. So we must ask ourselves, if I may suggest, what it is that we are trying to seek, what it is that we want, what it is that our hearts and minds demand."

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 02 Oct 2011 #48
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
You don't care if society crumbles? It is very much to point to those living in misery which is most of the world.

Here you see you have it quite wrong. What you call 'society' is the organisation of that misery. It is the organisation of misery that is crumbling.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Mon, 03 Oct 2011 #49
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
observing itself

is the only responsibility and allow the action which comes without it..
gb
and you are doing it nicely Paul.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Mon, 03 Oct 2011 #50
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Very good point Rick. And I say so with no bias whatsoever, especially as it was the exact same point I was making.

observing the so called conditioning removes conditioning.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Mon, 03 Oct 2011.

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Mon, 03 Oct 2011 #51
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

RICK LEIN wrote:
Who among us is in the position to preach/teach another according to our conclusions...from this center which is conditioning?

Let us understand our collective conditioning Rick.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Mon, 03 Oct 2011 #52
Thumb_295902_10150361346929121_667049120_8087939_521721644_n Angel Miolan Dominican Republic 179 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Paul: As you touch different aspects, I’m going to answer point by point for the better understanding.

Paul: Am I open to that if I have already reached an intellectual conclusion about it?

Angel: I feel when we have already and intellectual conclusions are not open to explore anymore. Your thought with your own experience, your particular interest, your self-image and all the cultural influence accumulated is present in the act of formulate a conclusion. The mind close and the formation of a centered state of mind run together and at the same time.

Paul: Is it not still the centered conditioned mind that is making such a statement?

Angel: You refer to your mind or Angel mind?.

Paul: Angel, you make the word 'responsibility' sound like a moral imperative. I want to know what my responsibility is NOW. What am I able to respond to NOW, not, I should have an open mind.

Angel: When I use the word: responsibility I used as a conscious imperative and also in the sense you used. What we do with the now, with the present state of humanity but with the understanding that you and me are the world. Because only if we change the world changed.

Paul: And I can only find this out by actually observing myself, through my daily interactions.

Angel: I totally agree with that.

Paul: And in doing so I find that I am incapable, as mind is presently configured, to observe without a centre, and I am incapable also of being open to a profound change. I am not open. I do have a centre. THAT and only that is the starting point.

Angel: Just because you feel incapable to observe, this doesn’t means the whole humanity can’t and therefore “mind is incapable, as mind is presently configured to observe without a center”. Is only a generalization, a false conclusion you are formulating with this statement.

Paul: So, to know what my responsibility is is to observe in what was I am able to respond, in actuality.

Angel: All human being is able to observe the only way is possible, without a centre.

Paul: Not to put upon me some false responsibility about stopping the world from crumbling by observing without a centre, which is vacuous and impossible The problem in many of these discussions is that we rush in to give easy K answers, as if we are already there. We are using/misusing the teaching to create many more illusions than we are destroying. This is how religions begin. Do you see?
Angel: I participate from my own perceptions and understanding.

lobo de la estepa

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Mon, 03 Oct 2011 #53
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Angel Miolan wrote:
I feel when we have already and intellectual conclusions are not open to explore anymore.

If one is aware that one has reached a conclusion in any thought process BUT is open to dropping the entire process then the conclusion is experimental, provisional and does not necessarily lead to closure and inability to go further. It is when the intellect becomes the master rather than the tool that any conclusions become prisons. Obviously the word conclusion does not of necessity imply an absolute end.

Angel Miolan wrote:
You refer to your mind or Angel mind?

You made a conclusive statement.

Angel Miolan wrote:
Just because you feel incapable to observe, this doesn’t means the whole humanity can’t

I did not say I cannot observe. I said that I observe from a centre, as long as I have a centre I am that centre. You have drawn a wrong conclusion from your own centre. Re-read my comment and you will see your conclusion and your centre that produced it.

Angel Miolan wrote:
and therefore “mind is incapable, as mind is presently configured to observe without a center”. Is only a generalization, a false conclusion you are formulating with this statement.

I was obviously talking about my mind Angel. If you read the whole sentence rather than abstracting this sub-phrase and thereby making of it something discrete, you will understand I was not talking about the possibilities of the human mind in general but the actuality of this mind, here, which operates from a centre, I do not have another mind which does not have a centre. I have this mind. Do you have a mind that has no centre? So, it is not any sort of generalisation, when read in context. I am talking of myself, mind as it is presently configured, here.

Angel Miolan wrote:
All human being is able to observe the only way is possible, without a centre.

Now, that is a generalisation. K may have said it from a direct perception of it, I do not know, but I cannot say that all human beings are able to observe without a centre. I simply do not know. But, when you say that the only way to observe is without a centre, I must categorically disagree. Please do not include me in your intellectual generalisation. I only speak of myself and I say that I observe from a centre. I presume most others do, that I am not exceptional in this. It is a presumption that I consider most likely to be true, from my external observations of others.

Angel Miolan wrote:
I participate from my own perceptions and understanding.

Good for you, Angel. You are unconditioned. I am not. My perceptions are mixed with my conditioning, inevitably. My understanding proves many times to be partial, biased and flawed. I do not see myself as a self-made man but still as a vehicle for collective thought.

Having said that, there is something that continuously rebels about that condition and seeks to be free of it. Even conditioning, it seems, seeks to become unconditioned!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Mon, 03 Oct 2011 #54
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
Let us understand our collective conditioning Rick

Indeed Ganesan. To even see a small piece of that collective state can be quite a shock, especially for the self-made men among us.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #55
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

As long as vedas are recited at some part of this world, world will not crumble.But before that extinct understand and help yourself and the world.

Paul Davidson wrote:
To even see a small piece of that collective state

the above is not that.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #56
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5770 posts in this forum Offline

Published on Tuesday, October 4, 2011 by Associated Press South Pacific Islands Face Water Crisis After Six Months of Low Rainfall
Rising sea levels and a shortage of rain leave Tuvalu and Tokelau relying on bottled water
Crops are wilting, schools have shut their toilets and government officials are bathing in lagoons because of a severe shortage of fresh water in a swath of the south Pacific.

Tuvalu in the south Pacific – one of the island groups suffering a shortage of fresh water after a particularly strong La Niña system. (Photograph: Matthieu Paley/Corbis) The island groups of Tuvalu and Tokelau have declared emergencies, relying on bottled water and seeking more desalination machines. Parts of Samoa are starting to ration water.

Supplies are precariously low after a severe lack of rain in a region where underground reserves have been fouled by salt water from rising seas that scientists have linked to climate change.

The logistics of supplying everyone with enough water to survive and the potential health problems that might arise is worrying officials as is how the islands will cope in the long term.

"We are praying that things will change," the Samoan-based official Jovilisi Suveinakama said.

Six months of low rainfall have dried out the islands. Climate scientists say it is part of a cyclical Pacific weather pattern known as La Niña – and they predict the coming months will bring no relief.

Rising sea levels are exacerbating the problem, as salt water seeps into underground supplies of fresh water that are drawn to the surface through wells.

On the three main atolls that make up Tokelau, the 1,400 residents ran out of fresh water last week and are relying on a seven-day supply of bottled water that was sent on Saturday from Samoa, Suveinakama said.

He added that some schools no longer had drinking water available, and pupils often needed to return home if they wanted to use a toilet.

"In terms of domestic chores, like washing clothes, everything's been put on hold," Suveinakama said. "We are cautious of the situation given the possible health issues."

He said that Tokelau, a territory of New Zealand, had tapped emergency funds to buy desalination machines, which turn salt water into fresh water. He hopes those will be shipped to the islands soon.

In Tuvalu, a country made up of low-lying atolls that is home to less than 11,000 people, the Red Cross team leader Dean Manderson described the situation as "quite dire".

He said on Tuesday that on the island of Nukulaelae there were only 16 gallons (73 litres) of fresh water left for the 350 residents, and the Red Cross was sending over two small desalination machines.

He said much of the well water on Tuvalu was unusable because it had become contaminated with salt water.

The New Zealand government this week flew a defence force C-130 plane to Tuvalu stocked with Red Cross supplies of bottled water and desalination machines. Officials including the high commissioner, Gareth Smith, also flew over to assess the situation.

Smith said the coconut trees on Tuvalu were looking sickly and the edible breadfruit, which grow in trees, were much smaller than usual. He said other local fruits and vegetables, including a type of giant taro, were not growing well or were in short supply.

He said people in the capital of Funafuti were permitted a ration of two buckets of water a day and government ministers had been bathing in the lagoon to preserve water.

Funafuti residents have been relying on a large desalination machine for much of their daily water supply, said Manderson. The Red Cross has been helping to improve the function of the machine and fixing others that have broken down, he added.

The New Zealand climate scientist James Renwick said the rainfall problems could be traced back 12 months, when the region began experiencing one of the strongest La Niña systems on record.

La Niña is triggered when larger-than-normal differences in water temperature across the Pacific Ocean cause the east-blowing trade winds to increase in strength, Renwick said. That, in turn, pushes rainfall to the west, leaving places such as Tuvalu and Tokelau dry.

Last year's La Niña system dwindled by June but this year it has begun picking up again just before the November rainy season, Renwick said, meaning that there is no relief in sight for island groups such as Tuvalu, Tokelau and Samoa.

"Low rainfall continues to be on the cards, at least through the end of the year," Renwick said.

Officials say they are concentrating on the short-term supply problems and have not yet had time to think about longer-term solutions for the islands. But they say the combination of rising water levels and low rainfall makes life on the islands look increasingly precarious.

© 2011 Associated Press.

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #57
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5770 posts in this forum Offline

The above is just another example of the physical crumbling of the world due to Man's use of fossil fuels which have drastically affected the climate. There is also wide spread social, political, and economic crumbling throughout the world which is obvious to anyone who can read a newspaper or watch and listen to a television or computer. And repeating words that are thousands of years old or even thought up yesterday isn't going to help a bit. Mankind has to become aware of the relationship it has with the world and change. That change does not come through government reforms, or war or wishing or hoping. Change begins within each of us. But before we can change we must see what is happening and not just stand around and deny the facts.

And by the way, Mr Davidson, James HanSON, British industrialist, was the one who supported Margaret Thatcher NOT James HanSEN the American scientist who's research lead to the understanding of how fossil fuels and other pollutants are changing our climate. If you are going to do research to refute someone try to understand what you are reading.

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #58
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
What a nice guy you are. I think your attitude is very much the point and it reveals a lot about you.

Ouch!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #59
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
And by the way, Mr Davidson, James HanSON, British industrialist, was the one who supported Margaret Thatcher NOT James HanSEN the American scientist who's research lead to the understanding of how fossil fuels and other pollutants are changing our climate. If you are going to do research to refute someone try to understand what you are reading.

Oh, you mean this James Hansen, from the world renowned US environmental group NASA who is also a multi-millionaire nuclear advocate:


The lawsuit claims Hansen privately profited from his public job in violation of federal ethics rules, and NASA allowed him to do it because of his influence in the media and celebrity status among environmental groups, which rewarded him handsomely the last four years.

Gifts, speaking fees, prizes and consulting compensation include:
– A shared $1 million prize from the Dan David Foundation for his "profound contribution to humanity." Hansen's cut ranged from $333,000 to $500,000, Horner said, adding that the precise amount is not known because Hansen's publicly available financial disclosure form only shows the prize was "an amount in excess of $5,000."

– The 2010 Blue Planet prize worth $550,000 from the Asahi Glass Foundation, which recognizes efforts to solve environmental issues.

– The Sophie Prize for his "political activism," worth $100,000. The Sophie Prize is meant to "inspire people working towards a sustainable future."

– Speaking fees totaling $48,164 from a range of mostly environmental organisations.

– A $15,000 participation fee, waived by the W.J. Clinton Foundation for its 2009 Waterkeeper Conference.

– $720,000 in legal advice and media consulting services provided by The George Soros Open Society Institute. Hansen said he did not take "direct" support from Soros but accepted "pro bono legal advice."

In his latest coup, Horner has obtained the 2010 filing of the SF 278 public financial disclosure document which senior public officials in the US are obliged to fill in for transparency and anti-corruption purposes. For the first time he reports in-kind travel expenses: $59,750 in in-kind income for travel in 2010 alone.
$26k, $18k and $7k for apparently first-class travel to Australia,
Japan and Norway, respectively for he and his wife, among other things.

What's more the documents show that in a period of five years, Hansen earned in outside income between $1.47 million and $2.67 million, in addition to his basic salary as a government employee of $180,000.

Under the terms of contract governing that salary, Hansen is forbidden from privately benefiting from public office and from taking money for activities related to his taxpayer funded employment.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #60
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Well, I guess if you put everyone in the one place you could kill them one thousand times over. Point is Rick, that we are spread out. Nuclear war would have had a devastating effect but to say it would have led to extinction of life (even 'as we know it') 15 times over is probably using statistics in the wrong way.

Paul..have you seen what it did..1 bomb in Japan..now take that 1 bomb and add 30.000 more..and you may begin to see the point being raised? Now that was 66 years ago..or so. Now days we not only have more than 2 countries in possession of them..but some countries ...like the U.S. can send 15 war heads in different directions all at once..and I might add..much more powerful bombs at that! Apparently the President of the United States and the leader of the soviet union saw something real in it!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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