Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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ANGER


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Sat, 18 Feb 2012 #1
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Anger comes up often on this site. It is talked about, it is felt and it is expressed. K has spoken extensively on the subject.

I want to ask two questions:

Can anger be an expression of intelligence?

and

Can anger be an expression of love?

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Sat, 18 Feb 2012 #2
Thumb_deleted_user_med Goutam M Norway 76 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"The questioner has to come to an end.

It is the questioner that creates the answer;

and the questioner comes into being from the answer,

otherwise there is no questioner."


"You know, this dialogue is only helpful when we come,

both of us, to a point and realize that no dialogue is possible,

that no dialogue is necessary.

When I say 'understanding', 'seeing', they mean something different to me.

Understanding is a state of being where the question isn't there any more;

there is nothing there that says "now I understand!"

-- that's the basic difficulty between us.
By understanding what I am saying, you are not going to get anywhere.


Both the above quotes are from the 'Wrong' Krishnmaurti (UG), but once in a while it is better to shake off from our own prejudices/beliefs. Again please don't execute the 'predatory focus' and start throwing bricks....and don't mistake that I am advocating UG by any means...

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012 #3
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
Can anger be an expression of intelligence?

Can anger be an expression of love?

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012 #4
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 881 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
Can anger be an expression of intelligence?

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
Can anger be an expression of love?

Why not!I could do it by just approximating the love to be a strong attachment.Let the impulse and sensations have full swing over the psycholgical being, the other mudane values/feelings like dependence/jealous/craving would take care that anger look like love, and manuplative skills appear like intelligence.

nothing

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012 #5
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 881 posts in this forum Offline

The anger is basically a reaction,highly dependent on the environment, and past record.As a raction it is thought which has the skill to manupulate it to its purpose.Our life is dominated by the thought process,hence it can be painted as love and intelligence, and allow ourselves swayed by the the illusions that would be generated.

nothing

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012 #6
Thumb_robotinhtml Dhirendra Silent India 54 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
Can anger be an expression of intelligence?
and
Can anger be an expression of love?

Maybe we could find out about something, by seeing clearly what it is not. Is your anger something outside of your "self"? Is your "self" an expression of "Love"? "Intelligence"? What isn't Love? What isn't Intelligence?

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012 #7
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi Dhi-Si.

We are already asking what it is not, but assuming nothing.

But I don't want to go to love and intelligence straight away.

I have an idea that we should question the common assertion that anger can be expressed as part of love or that there is an intelligent anger, a right or a righteous anger.

Maybe we could approach it another way:

Some contributors here have said that anger can be 'right anger' and/or that it can be an intelligent response to a challenge or that it can be a loving response.

I am following K's contention that in order to understand anger, which is part of violence and hate, we should neither condemn nor justify it.

How can we move forward with this?

Can we find any examples of intelligent or loving anger? As long as we conceptualise the existence of such, we will justify anger.

What is anger, not 'right anger' and 'wrong anger,' but what is anger?

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Mon, 20 Feb 2012 #8
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 881 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
What is anger, not 'right anger' and 'wrong anger,' but what is anger?

It is the state of the mind whose sense of self/ego has affected adversely.An emotion.The individual is( sensulized)offened and reacts agressively.

nothing

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Mon, 20 Feb 2012 #9
Thumb_robotinhtml Dhirendra Silent India 54 posts in this forum Offline

@ Peng Shu Tse @ post 7:

We can move forward only when we address what the other has posted. I addressed your post by asking questions about what you posted. You did not address anything I posted. What's up with that? Are you intentionally trying to derail enquiry?

"Is YOUR anger, something outside of YOUR "self"?" Very simple question. By addressing this, maybe we can find out "what IS anger". Maybe not.

This post was last updated by Dhirendra Silent Mon, 20 Feb 2012.

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Mon, 20 Feb 2012 #10
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dhirendra Silent wrote:
Maybe we could find out about something, by seeing clearly what it is not. Is your anger something outside of your "self"? Is your "self" an expression of "Love"? "Intelligence"? What isn't Love? What isn't Intelligence?

I apologise for not answering directly.

Is your anger something outside of yourself?

Obviously not, or it would not be yours but somebody else's. All your emotive reactions are within. Then one could ask, is the source of your anger outside of yourself? Is the cause external? What do you say?

Is your self an expression of love or intelligence? What is not love and not intelligence?

I did not want to pursue this question, not because I want to derail inquiry but because it takes inquiry into a new direction before we have explored the previous direction very far. But we can look at it.

Is 'self' born of love? Many have said it is. And it is said that learning to love oneself is the greatest love. The Freudians have said that the self, or ego, is a natural expression of the life instinct. The self, with its jealousies, anger and ambition, they say, is a healthy product. The religious people have talked of 'realisation of self.' Both Sankara and Jung said it.

We know that K was vehement in his rejection of all that. We know what K has said. We can repeat it all.

But how can we approach such questions in an authentic way, without relying on K? And how can we tie (religare) your question back to the subject of this thread, anger and its relationship, if any, to love and intelligence?

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Mon, 20 Feb 2012 #11
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
It is the state of the mind whose sense of self/ego has affected adversely.An emotion.The individual is( sensulized)offened and reacts agressively.

It is an outward movement, a reaction, is it not, of aggression.

Is there any anger which is not part of aggression?

And what is the energy of anger?

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Mon, 20 Feb 2012 #12
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 881 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
And how can we tie (religare) your question back to the subject of this thread, anger and its relationship, if any, to love and intelligence?

The manuplative tool, 'the thought' could do it.But one needs to be libral with illusions othewise it is not possible, any way that is what we do in the markets, don't we?

nothing

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Mon, 20 Feb 2012 #13
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
The manuplative tool, 'the thought' could do it

That is descriptive, Arjuna. Just do it.

Everything is related. Forget about thought relating things. What IS the relationship?

It is an open dialogue. Take it whichever way.

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Tue, 21 Feb 2012 #14
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 881 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Peng Shu Tse ,

You have taken part of my posting.My relectance to it, can be revealed in the second part of my posting.I just mentioned about 'thought', just to focus on our causal habit of resorting to thinking with idea of solving the problem.

nothing

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Tue, 21 Feb 2012 #15
Thumb_robotinhtml Dhirendra Silent India 54 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
The religious people have talked of 'realisation of self.' Both Sankara and Jung said it.

We know that K was vehement in his rejection of all that. We know what K has said. We can repeat it all.

But how can we approach such questions in an authentic way

And so we have one authority that says this, and another who says that, but what do you say? (without quoting either) I asked about your anger. How do you relate to it? When your anger is present, where is your attention? On your anger, or on the target? So many questions to look at, so little attention to them. But really, don't waste your time, with me asking these silly little questions here. There is so much time to waste waxing nostalgically with the poetic and optimistic, elsewhere. I won't bother you further.

This post was last updated by Dhirendra Silent Tue, 21 Feb 2012.

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #16
Thumb_cover pavani rao India 431 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Peng

Just going through you topic , few of the thoughts it arouse , I would like to share .

Anger for me is a powerful emotion , some times inherent in one’s nature , bursting out in bouts , may be due to various reasons , understanding of which with patience and attention may lead to its own revelations .

When we are talking of anger which is present out of intelligence and out of love which exists in relation between two people .......expressed and guided propely can bring changes in another , and has the potential to set a new direction ......The same anger if it has’nt met well or conveyed , or sorted out well by both the affected parties , may turn into indifference , which is not a healthy sign .......

Then there is this anger of the poor man which is coupled with despair against the oppressive , repressive nature of the system which takes the shape of helplessness ......and also there is this anger of slightly well to do , so called elite class of the society , seeing the deep rooted corruption , violence in the society , yet mired in his / her own personal world feels incapable of doing anything , turns the anger into apathy .......

Well if we go further .....the present changes , change of regimes we see in the Arab world is’nt it the result of the collective anger of the people bursted forth in the form of uprsing against the oppressive , despotic rule of the rulers , in one voice wanting to have peace , justice and democracy .......

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #17
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

As long as Manyu Sukta is being recited , anger as intelligence also will be there.
gb

Twin-born with power, destructive bolt of thunder, the highest conquering might is thine, Subduer!
Be friendly to its in thy spirit, Manyu, O Much-invoked, in shock of mighty battle.(battle in oneself)

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Wed, 22 Feb 2012.

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #18
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 700 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
Well if we go further .....the present changes , change of regimes we see in the Arab world is’nt it the result of the collective anger of the people bursted forth in the form of uprsing against the oppressive , despotic rule of the rulers , in one voice wanting to have peace , justice and democracy .......

Hi Pavani, not wanting to turn this into a political debate but, concerning the Arab Spring, some say it is the general dissatisfaction of the people (the same general dissatisfaction you may find even in relatively calm and democratic states like Portugal or Greece ...) that has been skillfully leveraged by movements which are, in turn, supported by US based foundations, with the endorsement of the US State Department.
In other words, this Arab Spring thing seems like an onion to me, once you start peeling ...

T

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #19
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

yes. not anger of intelligence.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #20
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
Can anger be an expression of intelligence?

Interesting question, Paul...

Is anger linked to 'intelligent altruism' or is this an idea arising out of a 'me' in relation to a 'you'?

and

Can anger be an expression of love?

I don't know whether or not anger is an essential element. It does seem, however, to be an integral part of our nature (collective and individual).

I do see the contradiction residing in your question as to how 'we' express our love to one another... Outrage at the injustices in the world has, perhaps, anger as a useful force/energy.

Humility/compassion in my view/experience is gentle in action not angry/aggressive. (Apologies if I seem to be stating the obvious here).

Regards, Katy

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #21
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Katy 9 wrote:
It does seem, however, to be an integral part of our nature (collective and individual).

Is it integral or merely residual? Anger appears to be a factor in our disintegration. Do we still need it, as the animal needs it?

The rest of your post I am considering, Kate. Thank you so much. They are all interesting points and questions. I feel we are at the beginning of an interesting dialogue here. Let's keep it going.

I want to leave some space before replying to the posts. But please continue.

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #22
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
Anger appears to be a factor in our disintegration. Do we still need it, as the animal needs it?

Good point, Paul...

'A hungry man is an angry man' (Bob Marley)

This post was last updated by Katy 9 (account deleted) Wed, 22 Feb 2012.

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #23
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
Is it integral or merely residual?

Integral, perhaps, where it exists as a defense/survival mechanism. And/or residual for a person who has the faculty/facility to 'rise above it'. I don't really know.

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #24
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Katy 9 wrote:
'A hungry man is an angry man' (Bob Marley)

Oh, is that what he was saying? I thought it was, "A hungry mob is an angry mob."

But does hunger lead to anger, or does thought come in and say, "I demand to be fed. I have a right to it."

Look at the hungry child. Is s/he angry? Look at the silence of hunger when it speaks its name.

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #25
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Katy 9 wrote:
where it exists as a defense/survival mechanism.

Then it is instant, and then it goes. Have we understood it? Then it is body intelligence and there is no time in it.

But also, see how quick we are to anger. What may have been appropriate in the spacious rain-forests of man's evolution is a different thing in a crowded train. Is it an appropriate response when one's corns are trodden upon, physically or psychologically? Should one bare one's teeth?

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #26
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

The instinctive mind is not the integrated mind.

Can we see the movement of the instinctive reaction and quieten it when it is not appropriate? Can it be done without repression?

This post was last updated by Peng Shu Tse (account deleted) Wed, 22 Feb 2012.

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #27
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Oh, I got it. He said both:

"A belly full, but them hungry; A hungry mob is a angry mob. A rain a-fall, but the dutty tough; A pot a-cook, but d' food* no 'nough. A hungry man is a angry man; …"

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #28
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 701 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
Is your anger something outside of yourself?

Obviously not, or it would not be yours but somebody else's. All your emotive reactions are within. Then one could ask, is the source of your anger outside of yourself? Is the cause external? What do you say?

What one actually is is free of all programing. There is this nowness, seeing, one is here only in this present. That that one actually is, ones true identity, intelligence, not different here from that in the other and has no past. That is the true self. Everything else is external to it. Which means that anger like all other programing, including all emotive reactions, is outside of ones self. If you can see it this way you can deal with it intelligently. You can look at It and understand it in the same way you can deal with a problem with a car or a faucet. The observer then is the observed

Anger is an evolved communication signal like laughter or smiling or frowning. Anger is a threat that one will hurt another. This signal produces and reinforces a dominance ordering. If you look at it you will see that is saying to another "I will hurt you" see if that is really what you want to say to another and why is it you want to . Where there is love you wont have this feeling for another. Where there is compassion you won't have this feeling for any.

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #29
Thumb_img001 Dr.sudhir sharma India 1888 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
Where there is love you wont have this feeling for another. Where there is compassion you won't have this feeling for any.

Is pure feeling (not thought generated or named) of anger not possible...not against another but as a response to a live challenge?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Wed, 22 Feb 2012 #30
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
But does hunger lead to anger, or does thought come in and say, "I demand to be fed. I have a right to it."

You are right, Paul...

The quote from Bob Marley also alludes to the sort hunger you are pointing to:

"Them belly full but they're hungry man; a hungry man is an angry man"

There are lots of elements to this.

I would be interested to look further with you into what happens to people who are most in need. Where do our direct observations about our (human) nature fit/agree with what Krishnamurti wrote? (Not that I have read everything he said!).

Do you agree with Krishnamurti's teaching about the 'true' violence of our nature coming out when we are not 'petted'? Or is violence something actually learned via. imitation? Are these two aspects intertwined?

Of course, a person who is hungry knows it and there are degrees of hunger. And, yes, as you have pointed out, with no 'idea' of hope or expectation of food, anger might not be a factor at all. However, this ongoing and needless deprivation/lack of basic shares is angry-making to see/know about - causing 'altruistic anger' perhaps?

Is it thought-based fear/anticipation of hunger and/or poverty which (also) creates greed? Or is it something else?

There are also differing forms of poverty e.g. spiritual and/or material. I see that hunger is a visible/ obvious element of poverty. Perhaps it would be worth looking at 'poverty' as a separate topic? I don't know.

(I see an irony, too, which Krishnamurti also pointed to regarding ambition which leads to material wealth but not to love).

I hope that I haven't written too much; no formal 'answers' expected to the above.

Regards, Katy

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