Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Where is error?


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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #1
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, what is wrong with us, with the human being, what is fundamental error?

I don't know

This post was last updated by dhirendra singh Sun, 01 Jul 2012.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #2
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

dhirendra singh wrote:
what is wrong with us, with the human being, what is fundamental error?

Instead of direct perception,the thought controls our action, is this the root cause of our misery, D?

Our becoming selfish, is that the fundamental error?

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #3
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
Yes, what is wrong with us, with the human being, what is fundamental error?

If the answer to this question was given to you, you wouldn't know what to do with it. You've already concluded that thought is not the means to finding out, so why do you ask questions at all? Do you think the answers are going to come to you by some magical, mystical process?

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #4
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Instead of direct perception,the thought controls our action, is this the root cause of our misery, D?

Please tell us, doctor, about "direct perception". Is there really such a thing?

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #5
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

I wonder if it's more important to ask why we want to know what is fundamentally wrong with us? Are we trying to become enlightened? Maybe we're depressed, angry, frustrated or confused and want a way out? Maybe we want to solve mankind's problems?

D

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #6
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
If the answer to this question was given to you, you wouldn't know what to do with it. You've already concluded that thought is not the means to finding out, so why do you ask questions at all? Do you think the answers are going to come to you by some magical, mystical process?

If you like, and if you feel this question in you, give it a try otherwise don't cry.

I don't know

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #7
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

dave humphrey wrote:
I wonder if it's more important to ask why we want to know what is fundamentally wrong with us? Are we trying to become enlightened? Maybe we're depressed, angry, frustrated or confused and want a way out? Maybe we want to solve mankind's problems?

Dave, Personally I asked this question because I feel that in the whole nature there is no one mad like human being.

I don't know

This post was last updated by dhirendra singh Sun, 01 Jul 2012.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #8
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
If you like, and if you feel this question in you, give it a try otherwise don't cry.

You ask questions you're not really interested in exploring. This you demonstrated in the thread And the same idiotic question you started awhile back in which you adamantly stuck to your guns instead of opening your mind. Clearly, you're pinioned to K-isms, so spare us the fake inquiry.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #9
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Instead of direct perception,the thought controls our action, is this the root cause of our misery, D?

Our becoming selfish, is that the fundamental error?

Actually I don't know the real answer, Sudhir, human being is different than rest of the world, it is animal plus it has a psychological world, which is selfish and foolish.Is this selfish psychological creature an error?Or it is result of any other fundamental error?
And is it possible to end the root cause of fundamental error?

I don't know

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #10
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dave humphrey wrote:
I wonder if it's more important to ask why we want to know what is fundamentally wrong with us?

You're right. It is more important to ask why we want to know than it is to find an answer. Every inquiry begins with the intention to find out, so unless that intention is exposed and subject to scrutiny, we don't know what's driving our need for knowledge. It may be, as you say, desire for enlightenment or relief from unhappiness, and being consciously aware of this underlying intent is crucial.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #11
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

haha
you might be right

do you think we're that different from animals though?
maybe we're just animals with greater technical ability?
I don't know the answer

we do have problems as a species though I think that's clear

you're asking if there is a single cause to our problems
we have many conflicts in our lives, at work, at home, with ourselves, is there a fundamental cause?

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #12
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Please tell us, doctor, about "direct perception". Is there really such a thing?

Please tell us, lidlo, if it is possible to live in daily life from seeing/listening/observing to seeing/listening/observing without thought intervening?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #13
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
You ask questions you're not really interested in exploring

If question arise, I just share, after that if question look important to you, you may explore it whether I am interested or not.I am not expecting inquiry or anything from you and if you like you may also stop expecting any particular things from others.

I don't know

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #14
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

dhirendra singh wrote:
Sudhir, human being is different than rest of the world, it is animal plus it has a psychological world, which is selfish and foolish.

Dhirendra, selfishness could be at individual or group level, small or big. Could there be selfishness of 'human level' which would involve thought, feeling and action in the interest of humanity? Could that end fundamental error/foolishness of us all?

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #15
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

dhirendra singh wrote:
And is it possible to end the root cause of fundamental error?

Before ending something, one has to clearly see/find it, D.:)

Instead of asking 'what is the root cause of this error?', could we ask 'where/at what level does this error start to show its roots in us?'

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #16
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

actually you can see gorillas fighting each other over objects, consoling each other and having feuds

and that doesn't help much with the topic question, but I'm not convinced we're completely different to animals

I'm not sure it's important though - whether animals are mad too or not, we still have this issue of how we will resolve our problems...

is this something we can do something about? is it something we can cut out like a cancer?

This post was last updated by dave h Sun, 01 Jul 2012.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #17
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
If the answer to this question was given to you, you wouldn't know what to do with it. You've already concluded that thought is not the means to finding out, so why do you ask questions at all? Do you think the answers are going to come to you by some magical, mystical process?

Assumption..assumption..and speculation..which in spite of the question mark at the end..is still an opinion upon which you have formed a conclusion!LOL...thanks for the laugh Lord Lidio

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #18
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Please tell us, lidlo, if it is possible to live in daily life from seeing/listening/observing to seeing/listening/observing without thought intervening?

What's possible is for thought to operate at such a sublime level as to be undetectable, virtually absent, and this is what's happening when perception seems direct, thoughtless, untouched by the past, etc. There's no consciousness, no perception, without the response of memory, though at times it may seem that way. This is the wonder of that state of mind, and it's that state of mind that matters - not what you believe about it. If it's ascertainable that "I" am not there, thought is operating, but sublimely rather than mundanely.

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Sun, 01 Jul 2012.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #19
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
in which you adamantly stuck to your guns instead of opening your mind.

Perfect self description Lord Lidio!So spare us the fake inquiry!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #20
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
if you like you may also stop expecting any particular things from others.

I know by now what to expect from you, but I'd be delighted if you were to surprise me by thinking outside the K-box.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #21
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
What's possible is for thought to operate at such a sublime level as to be undetectable, virtually absent, and this is what's happening when perception seems direct, thoughtless, untouched by the past, etc.

What makes you say about this 'possibility' being a fact?

I say that words can not be formed at that deep level where direct perception takes place. This 'level' can connect and activate that superficial part of brain where verbalisation takes place. It is a different matter that this thought making is going on in us automatically, but that is not mandatory.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #22
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dave humphrey wrote:
I'm not sure it's important though - whether animals are mad too or not, we still have this issue of how we will resolve our problems...

We don't expect animals to behave rationally, but when we find ourselves and each other behaving irrationally, we expect there to be some means of self-correction. Believing this is a rational expectation, we look for the means until we think we've found it, or until we realize it's an irrational presumption. There is no miraculous cure for irrationality.

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Sun, 01 Jul 2012.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #23
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
It is a different matter that this thought making is going on in us automatically, but that is not mandatory.

"Mandatory" is the wrong word. Also, equating thought with words is over-simplifying. You know thought operates unconsciously, so to think you can be consciously aware of it's non-operation is absurd because you can't be conscious without it.

Consciousness is rooted in unconscious thought and there's nothing to be done about it. You can be more or less conscious, but you can't uproot thought from the unconscious or expose it completely. It is the relationship of the past to the present.

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Sun, 01 Jul 2012.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #24
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
There is no miraculous cure for irrationality.

You should know...LOL:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #25
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

I think you might be right about this

we do seem to have lesser expectations of animals

perhaps it's a more pressing issue for our species as we are capable of so much more destruction or construction even

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #26
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
You know thought operates unconsciously,

One can be aware of thought making process as it is happening, but that is not the issue. I am asking that in this matter of 'direct perception', why are you bringing the issue of thought at all? Can't memory aid comprehension/understanding without forming words/thoughts?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Sudhir Sharma Sun, 01 Jul 2012.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #27
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Can't memory aid comprehension/understanding without forming words/thoughts?

It depends on what you think memory is. It may be a lot more subtle and complex than you can imagine. The question is whether it's operating when there's no sense of separation or observer/observed duality. I say it is, but in a very different way, that is, non-dualistically. Saying this isn't K-correct, but I'm only interested in the truth of the matter.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #28
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Consciousness is rooted in unconscious thought and there's nothing to be done about it.

This is right.

lidlo lady wrote:
You can be more or less conscious, but you can't uproot thought from the unconscious or expose it completely. It is the relationship of the past to the present.

This is ok with me, but again I am asking this, " Is it not possible for direct perception to by-pass unconscious thoughts (to be free of all authority) and memory be used/activated only for retrieving factual information?"

In the functioning of human mind, is pure perception deeper/more fundamental than memory or not?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #29
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
It depends on what you think memory is. It may be a lot more subtle and complex than you can imagine.

Then say something about memory's subtlety/complexity, please.

lidlo lady wrote:
The question is whether it's operating when there's no sense of separation or observer/observed duality. I say it is, but in a very different way, that is, non-dualistically.

What are you trying to say here?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sun, 01 Jul 2012 #30
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Is it not possible for direct perception to by-pass unconscious thoughts (to be free of all authority) and memory be used/activated only for retrieving factual information?"

In the functioning of human mind, is pure perception deeper/more fundamental than memory or not?

"Pure" perception is raw sense data; meaningless and useless until processed by memory and rendered as consciousness. What's needed is not the elimination of "the past", but the elimination of erroneous, ficticious ideas and beliefs about the present.

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