Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Are You Right?


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Sun, 15 Jul 2012 #1
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Why is it that most people would rather be right than be honest? To be right is to conform and adhere to what you believe to be true. But to be honest is to realize that conforming and adhering is just escaping from uncertainty.

You have your Truth because you can't abide not knowing. There are so many things you can know, but what you want most desperately to know, you cannot. This fact is so unbearable, so intolerable, that you're driven into the arms - the tentacles, really - of an overarching belief that soothes you into righteous conviction.

There's no righteousness in uncertainty; nothing to defend or assert. It's a state of openness and receptivity that doesn't call itself "emptiness", or entertain any idea of what it should or shouldn't be. It just observes the horror of righteousness and its hordes of adherents.

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Mon, 16 Jul 2012.

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Mon, 16 Jul 2012 #2
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
It just observes the horror of righteousness and its hordes of adherents.

I'm not a "k" expert, but I know that he said that it is essential for one to be in revolt.Now my question is,is this different from observing the horror of righteousness etc.,which I'm in agreement with,or what did I miss??
It seems that this K-train is,as the song goes,a bumpy road to love.
Just trying to get on the right(not righteous)track.

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Mon, 16 Jul 2012 #3
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

john Campbell wrote:
I'm not a "k" expert, but I know that he said that it is essential for one to be in revolt.

Years ago when I first read that, I bought it because I liked the sound of it. K said a lot of things that are uncritically accepted because they sound authoritative and people like to be told what's true and what to do.

Have more respect for your own observations and skeptical regard for the portentous pronouncements of others.

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Mon, 16 Jul 2012 #4
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Why is it that most people would rather be right than be honest?

Why is that most people would rather be intellectually right or be critical of others in honest (or dishonest) way than paying attention to their daily life/living?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Mon, 16 Jul 2012 #5
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Years ago when I first read that, I bought it because I liked the sound of it.

Have you now become any wiser, Lidlo? Do you now 'buy' only what you 'sell'?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Mon, 16 Jul 2012 #6
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Have more respect for your own observations and skeptical regard for the portentous pronouncements of others.

This is a subtle way to strengthen the ego. The 'observation' needs not respect or regard, but accuracy and alertness. It also has no bias towards 'my' and 'your'.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Mon, 16 Jul 2012 #7
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
This is a subtle way to strengthen the ego. The 'observation' needs not respect or regard, but accuracy and alertness. It also has no bias towards 'my' and 'your'.

This is egotistical, self-righteous drivel.

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Mon, 16 Jul 2012 #8
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Have more respect for your own observations and skeptical regard for the portentous pronouncements of others.

A bit presumptuous but very interesting.
Personally,I've navigated a rocky road but my physical and emotional scars have healed and I am more or less bull-it-shit proof and not about to bow to a little man who probably lifted nothing heavier than a book.Now ,the little man is very interesting,and so,not being a person with a closed mind,I decided to stop and have a look."Donc",the forums are very helpful in as far as getting a 'feel'of it all,(love the red flags and F U mam,mister,etc.)If this where to take place in a saloon on Boot Hill,I'm not very sure how many would walk out at the end of the day.And"Madame Dictionaire",your real good at stiring the pot and pissing off Lien Rick,if I may say so.Maybe we'll learn something from it all,one way or the other.

lidlo lady wrote:
Years ago when I first read that, I bought it because I liked the sound of it. K said a lot of things that are uncritically accepted because they sound authoritative and people like to be told what's true and what to do.

We all like to dance to the sounds of the music but sometimes you must change partners...,or the music.

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Tue, 17 Jul 2012 #9
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Belief rides the same track as pain. It calms pain. We treat the effect as we don't know the cause. Even when one intellectually can question and dismiss a belief system it is still acting because it lives on the underlying pain. The left neo-cortex can calm the emotions with either belief or its opposite, rationalisation. But to eliminate the emotional triggers that cause the underlying pain and its responses is another thing. Deep trauma may colour our attitudes to life. We learn to live with it but cannot erase it.

K says, no, you can erase it. Yet, this becomes another belief to calm the same emotional pain. If you have not erased your pain, your ignorance, your emotional reactivity, after reading K, then question why you believe you may be able to do so in the future. The reality is that your energy would be better spent on learning to deal with your emotional baggage rsther than to live in the expectation or belief that your relationship with the teachibng of K will somehow lead you towaerds an ending or elimination of it.

To live in a lie is to self-calm. It functions well within limits. Trouble is that life cannot be contained within those limits. It is necessary therefore to learn about how you yourself operate, to improve the quality of that operation and to unlock some of the boundaries you have put upon yourself through wrong beliefs and wrong reactions. Thought can be the rescuer in this or the demon. It all depends on whether you can master thought to the extent necessary for your purposes, which must be practical. No amount of spiritual bullshitting can help you.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 17 Jul 2012 #10
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sun Hand wrote:
The reality is that your energy would be better spent on learning to deal with your emotional baggage rather than to live in the expectation or belief that your relationship with the teaching of K will somehow lead you towards an ending or elimination of it.

K talked a lot about how your baggage is a waste of energy and how you needed energy to give it the heave-ho, but since there's nothing apart from the baggage to do anything about it, the baggage gives K the boot.

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Tue, 17 Jul 2012 #11
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
K talked a lot about how your baggage is a waste of energy and how you needed energy to give it the heave-ho, but since there's nothing apart from the baggage to do anything about it, the baggage gives K the boot.

What is the baggage? Not what are the varieties of baggage, but what is it?

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

This post was last updated by Dean R. Smith (account deleted) Tue, 17 Jul 2012.

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Tue, 17 Jul 2012 #12
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dean R. Smith wrote:
What is the baggage? Not what are the varieties of baggage, but what is it?

The baggage is the content, memory, the sum total of the brain's experience, knowledge, belief, etc.

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Tue, 17 Jul 2012 #13
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
The baggage is the content, memory, the sum total of the brain's experience, knowledge, belief, etc.

... and it speaks and says there is only the baggage. Either those words are belief or from realization. Let's say it's realization. What brought about that realization and why did it stop there?

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Tue, 17 Jul 2012 #14
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sun Hand wrote:
No amount of spiritual bullshitting can help you.

LOL..but you keep trying..:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #15
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dean R. Smith wrote:
What brought about that realization and why did it stop there?

If there's something beyond realizing that you are "the baggage" and there's nothing to be done about it, do tell.

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #16
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
If there's something beyond realizing that you are "the baggage" and there's nothing to be done about it, do tell.

So, you're saying it's realization. Now, to get to where you want to go, you'll have to answer at least the first part of the question: What brought about that realization and why did it stop there?

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #17
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

You're playing the Grand Inquisitor again and it's annoying. Do you have something to say or do you just interrogate?

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #18
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
You're playing the Grand Inquisitor again and it's annoying. Do you have something to say or do you just interrogate?

You conveyed that 'there is only the baggage' is a realization and you're being asked 'what brought about the realization?'. It's a simple straightforward question.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5800 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Dean R. Smith wrote:
What brought about that realization and why did it stop there?

If there's something beyond realizing that you are "the baggage" and there's nothing to be done about it, do tell.

No. You are turning the question back on Dean. Answer the question. How do you know there is nothing beyond "baggage"? You make these proclamations now back them up with something beside evasions.

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #20
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
You're playing the Grand Inquisitor again and it's annoying. Do you have something to say or do you just interrogate?

That's really very funny that you say that...funny in that while you engage in that very behavior...you are annoyed!It is quite simple..you were asked a question directly,so how about skipping the old "turn the table" routine and answer him:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #21
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dean R. Smith wrote:
You conveyed that 'there is only the baggage' is a realization and you're being asked 'what brought about the realization?'. It's a simple straightforward question.

I just read the conversation a couple of times and can find no point where Lidlo conveyed something called a 'realisation.' One can 'realise' in the ordinary sense of gaining an understanding of a thing. I realise that it is raining. But Dean seems to use the term 'realisation' in some sort of spiritual sense. Maybe he will explain how he is using the term.

As far as I see it, we are the emotional memories we carry. Who we are is based upon our primary emotional learning. Our whole outlook on the world and life is based upon what we learnt in our earliest years, plus what has been added since. Of course there is the fact that we have a common biological being, a body and a brain that was pre-programmed, and this is also part of the legacy we carry.

But to see that as a fact does not mean that I have had some sort of cosmic 'realisation.' It implies no such thing.

But Dean is asking a cunning question. He is saying, either lidlo's statement that you are only your baggage and that this baggage cannot eliminate itself, is a belief or it is a realisation. He challenges Lidlo to explain why it is a realisation, since Lidlo says he does not entertain beliefs.

To make it simple, Lidlo has said that you are only your past. Dean is probing whether this is a fact or a belief. Lidlo is saying that it is a fact. Dean asks him how he knows. Lidlo counters by saying, in effect, that the past is all he knows and challenges Dean to say what he knows, beyond that. Dean cannot answer that question and repeats his own.

Dean, the past is all we know. We are that. Everything you are and everything you think you are has been laid down by past experience. If you insist there is more than that then it is up to you to explain this 'more.'

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #22
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
How do you know there is nothing beyond "baggage"?

He is saying there is nothing within you that is not of the past, not part of the causal chain that brought you into existence, nourished or damaged you, and brought you to this exact point, here, now.

The idea that there is something within you that is not of the past, that can somehow act upon you and erase your past, is to create a mystery where there is none. We are temporal beings. There is nothing within us which is not of time, which has not been brought about by the interraction of events in time, which has not been caused.

How do I, he or she know that, as fact? Ultimately we do not. It is the ground assumption with which we operate in the world. It is our sensory reality. IF you step out of the discussion of beliefs and actually see how you operate in day to day living, you will be struck by the fact that every little thing you do is only based upon the grounding assumption that everything in this word is caused and everything is of time. Without that you could not predict that the ground beneath your feet will not open up and swallow you. You would not be able to move or act without the underlying assumption of consistancy and time. Why then, would you put yourself outside of that frame and judge yourself to be independent of time and to be potentially a creator of miracles?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #23
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sun Hand wrote:
I just read the conversation a couple of times and can find no point where Lidlo conveyed something called a 'realisation.'

Well, then, you have poor reading comprehension skills. The rest of your post wasn't read, because lidlo and Dean are taking a walk and three is a crowd. :)

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #24
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dean R. Smith wrote:
Well, then, you have poor reading comprehension skills. The rest of your post wasn't read, because lidlo and Dean are taking a walk and three is a crowd. :)

Probably I have good reading skills and you have a poor attitude. Certainly your ignorance of K's message is shown by your second sentence.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #25
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sun Hand wrote:
Probably I have good reading skills and you have a poor attitude. Certainly your ignorance of K's message is shown by your second sentence.

Your reading comprehension skills are sorely lacking. There's no interest in anything you have to say, but you should realize that you're accusing lidlo of what lidlo accuses just about everybody else of: being a Krishnamurti believer who is parroting Krishnamurti.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #26
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5800 posts in this forum Offline

Paul, let LL answer for himself. You will have a chance later to explain all of your assertions of why K was wrong. LL, answer the question. How do you know there is nothing beyond "baggage"? It's time someone questions all your delusional assertions and fully examens your need to disrupt this forum with your continuing rudness and ridiculous opinions.

While you accuse others of being "believers" you seem to be the only true believer on this forum. You went from believing in K to believing your own confused opinions.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 18 Jul 2012.

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #27
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack, I am not preventing Lidlo from giving his answer, if he so chooses. Your assertion that I am preventing him is as ridiculous as your phoney name. Neither did I even suggest he was a K parrot. That is your delusional reasoning that tells you so. You have no right to try to shut people up. It's just your vanity that tells you you can. And your absurd posture of chief inquisitor, "You will have a chance later to explain your assertions" puts you right in the loopy-league where you belong. Fool.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #28
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dean R. Smith wrote:
There's no interest in anything you have to say

There is plenty of interest, as my fan mail shows. It is you who are out on a limb.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #29
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
How do you know there is nothing beyond "baggage"?

I wonder how it is that you don't know this? Why hasn't this realization dawned on you? Why are you still suffering from the delusion that there's a thinker? How is it you haven't realized you are not the person you pretend to be, or any person at all?

You and Dean are asking me for the "how" of this realization, but If you've ever had a realization (which I doubt) you know it comes after much inquiring observation.

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Wed, 18 Jul 2012.

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Wed, 18 Jul 2012 #30
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sun Hand wrote:
There is plenty of interest, as my fan mail shows.

Your alt accounts don't count! :)

Sun Hand wrote:
It is you who are out on a limb.

Not in the least. Lidlo wants to get here:

lidlo lady wrote:
If there's something beyond realizing that you are "the baggage" and there's nothing to be done about it, do tell.

... but what brought about the realization has to be established first. Then things will be obvious.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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