Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Psychological Thought


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Fri, 20 Jul 2012 #1
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnamurti said that there are two distincnctly different kinds of thought: the practical and the psychological. He taught that the psychological type should be ignored and dismissed because it expresses ignorance of how thought operates. Psychological thought is the sound of a brain that hasn't realized how thought, by its own movement, creates the illusion of a person, a "who" doing it. Realizing this dispels the effect of the illusion, but prior to realization, thought seems to be a person that thinks. Because of this misunderstanding, this self-ignorance, thought is constantly compensating by trying to be a better person.

Krishnamurti didn't think this was funny. He wasn't amused by psychological thought because he knew how dangerous it is. He wanted people to wake up to how thought operated and to see through the illusion of persona, and he did what he could to awaken them. But because his own authoritative persona was more appealing to those in search of a new identity than to those interested in understanding, he was addressing those least likely to wake up.

Maybe this was a good thing. I don't know. What I do know is that thought is only as good as it is attuned, and that what passes for thinking is so out of tune as to be little more than humming and gargling and shouting. I know also that if we can distinguish practical thought from the noise of imagined identity, we can distinguish between two types of human: those who mistake the sound of thought for thinking, and those who don't make that mistake.

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Fri, 20 Jul 2012.

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Fri, 20 Jul 2012 #2
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Psychological thought is the sound of a brain that hasn't realized how thought, by its own movement, creates the illusion of a person,

Maybe psychological thought,thought realizing that one feels,is aware, and has potential and imagination,imagining things right or wrong ,correcting along the way,does not qualify as an illusion,but instead gives us a quality,thus,separating us,distinguishing us,from an ant hill .

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #3
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

How about some citation for the "Krishnamurti said" stuff and links to those citations?

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #4
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dean R. Smith wrote:
How about some citation for the "Krishnamurti said" stuff and links to those citations?

Why do I get the feeling Lord Lid..is about to do the old Davidson 2 step around this request?:) LOL

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #5
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Dean R. Smith wrote:
How about some citation for the "Krishnamurti said" stuff and links to those citations?

What is significant is:

lidlo lady wrote:
Maybe this was a good thing. I don't know. What I do know is that thought is only as good as it is attuned, and that what passes for thinking is so out of tune as to be little more than humming and gargling and shouting. I know also that if we can distinguish practical thought from the noise of imagined identity, we can distinguish between two types of human: those who mistake the sound of thought for thinking, and those who don't make that mistake.

nothing

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #6
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"So this idea of evolution, growing, psychologically thought has taken it over saying, 'I need time to become something'." 7th Public Talk 23rd July 1978

"When technical thought, which can only measure, spills over into the psychological it is completely out of its natural place, and that perpetuates all human problems." K-patty, July, 2009

"You can speak for thought as opposed to the psychological thought." ArjunaRao, January, 2012

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #7
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
He taught that the psychological type should be ignored and dismissed...

K always emphasised 'seeing/listening/observing and ending' all of which require alertness/attention.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #8
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
K always emphasised 'seeing/listening/observing and ending' all of which require alertness/attention.

Yes, but what did he say about psychological thought?

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #9
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Oh! Dear, those are your observations(may be your grasp/conclusions).Please own it.

nothing

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Sat, 21 Jul 2012.

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #10
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Psychological thought is the sound of a brain

lidlo lady wrote:
those who mistake the sound of thought for thinking,

?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #11
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Yes, but what did he say about psychological thought?

That they are divisive/isolating/dangerous and all that, but he never stated that they should be 'ignored and dismissed'.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #12
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Maybe this was a good thing. I don't know.

What is it you are referring to as 'good thing', Lidlo?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #13
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
"So this idea of evolution, growing, psychologically thought has taken it over saying, 'I need time to become something'." 7th Public Talk 23rd July 1978

lidlo lady wrote:
"When technical thought, which can only measure, spills over into the psychological it is completely out of its natural place, and that perpetuates all human problems." K-patty, July, 2009

lidlo lady wrote:
"You can speak for thought as opposed to the psychological thought." ArjunaRao, January, 2012

Krishnamurti said:

1/ that there are two distincnctly different kinds of thought: the practical and the psychological.

2/ He taught that the psychological type should be ignored and dismissed because it expresses ignorance of how thought operates.

3/ Psychological thought is the sound of a brain that hasn't realized how thought, by its own movement, creates the illusion of a person, a "who" doing it. Realizing this dispels the effect of the illusion, but prior to realization, thought seems to be a person that thinks. Because of this misunderstanding, this self-ignorance, thought is constantly compensating by trying to be a better person.

Citation and links, please.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #14
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

Hey Dean, I found this link which I think addresses 1/

http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1962/1962-...

Seventh Talk in New Delhi, 1962

"There is the chronological time by the watch, time as twenty-four hours, time as yesterday, today, and tomorrow. When we talk about time, we are not talking of that time; we are talking of psychological time. The time that builds up tomorrow, the time thought has invested in hope, the time as the future where you will be something, time as achievement, time as arriving, time as gaining - all that time is psychological; it is not chronological. So a mind that wishes to understand and comprehend the whole problem of fear has to understand the process of thinking - in itself, not in some book - the process of its own thought and how thought fabricates time.

If there is no thought, there is no time. If there is no time, there is no fear. If you are told that you will die on the instant now, there is no fear because you are dead already. Fear comes in only when there is an interval between the fact and what you hope should not be. So thought is fear; thought is time, and the ending of thought is the ending of fear. Just listen to this. Do not ask how to end thought. Just listen to what is being said. If you are able to listen to it, you will understand. So in investigating fear, one has to understand thought. Thought is the reaction of memory, and memory is the past - the past being not only the past of a thousand years but also the past of yesterday, the past in which you have been educated in English, in technology."

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #15
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dave humphrey wrote:
Hey Dean, I found this link which I think addresses 1/

You think wrong. :)

The quote in no way says that: "there are two distincnctly different kinds of thought: the practical and the psychological."

P. S. The quote (including the misspelling) is Lidlo's.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #16
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Dean R. Smith wrote:
The quote in no way says that: "there are two distincnctly different kinds of thought: the practical and the psychological."

correct.

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #17
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Yes, but what did he say about psychological thought?

That "..thought is the outcome of psychological accumulation, and that accumulation, that gathering, gives it a sense of continuity, which is time."

"psychological accumulation is thought and time"

"Death is a state when the mind has lost its recognition of itself as consciousness and of the borders of time. Where there is continuity of thought - which is what most of us want, which is all that we know - it breeds sorrow, anxiety, guilt, and all the travail of life; that thought has a continuity of its own, but thought is bound by time. When thought dies to itself, when the machinery of memory as thought comes to an end - it is psychological thought, not the mechanical thought of knowledge - then you will find that the thing that you are afraid of is not there. Fear ceases altogether. Then you are living completely, integrally, wholly, from moment to moment - and that is creation."

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #18
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

psychological thought is illusion.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #19
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

The problem to sum up what K said about thought is that his words are often so often badly illogical, as in the quote Dave gives in post 14, above. K says there that where there is no thought there is no fear and goes on to state, as if it is logical conclusion for the previous idea, that thought is (therefore) fear.

It is like saying that if there was no water there would be no fish, therefore fish are water, or water is fish.

He plays this two-step illogic time and time again. In another quote above, K starts by talking about psychological thought as being hope, fear, becoming etc, but then falls into talking about the ending of thought, sui generis, not just the so-called psychological thought.

John Campbell has made some good points:

john Campbell wrote:
Maybe psychological thought,thought realizing that one feels,is aware, and has potential and imagination,imagining things right or wrong ,correcting along the way,does not qualify as an illusion,but instead gives us a quality,thus,separating us,distinguishing us,from an ant hill .

My question is, does what John describes fall into the category of psychological or technical thought, according to the K demarcation? Is, for example, self inquiry psychological or technical? If I inquire into the psychological processes that make up who I am, is that inquiry psychological or technical?

I guess someone will say that inquiry is not thought. In which case I would answer with the question posed several weeks ago, which was assiduously avoided: Can there be inquiry without thought? Have you ever done it?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #20
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Sun Hand wrote:
Can there be inquiry without thought?

observation is inquiry.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #21
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dean R. Smith wrote:
P. S. The quote (including the misspelling) is Lidlo's.

Learn to distinguish between spelling errors and typing errors. Your "P. S." for example, is an error in punctuation and not simply a keyboard slip as was evident in Lidlo's "distincnctly."

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #22
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
observation is inquiry.

Observation is no inquiry. Thought is not inquiry. Silence is not inquiry. Feeling/sensitivity is not inquiry.

Observation is part of inquiry. Thought is part of inquiry. Feeling/sensitivity is part of inquiry. Silence is part of inquiry. Questioning is part of inquiry.

If I observe a tree, without thought, this is observation but it is not inquiry. Inquiry is inquiry.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #23
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sun Hand wrote:
Learn to distinguish between spelling errors and typing errors. Your "P. S." for example, is an error in punctuation and not simply a keyboard slip as was evident in Lidlo's "distincnctly."

Typing errors result in misspelled words. Learn to read. The P. S. is fine.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #24
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
What is it you are referring to as 'good thing', Lidlo?

To the last sentence in the preceding paragraph.

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