Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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God


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Mon, 23 Jul 2012 #1
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

X: God is dead.

Y: God was mortal?

X: Metaphorically dead.

Y: What did God do when He was metaphorically alive?

X: He drove people crazy.

Y: So now that He's dead, why aren't people sane?

X: Because sanity involves more than just believing.

Y: Like what?

X: Like the ability to discern between reasonable and irrational belief.

Y: Why do people lack that ability?

X: They never developed it.

Y: Why not?

X: God forbade and punished the development and exercise of that ability.

Y: Oh dear! Why was God so awful?

X: Well, now that He's dead we can ask that question without fear of His wrath.

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Mon, 23 Jul 2012.

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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #2
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

"God is dead";Nietzsche.

"Nietzsche is dead";God.

"Prove all things,hold fast that which is good". Thessalonians 5:21.

I am not the least bit religious,but must face the fact that the idea of God was born.If this idea got in the way of our bashing our heads in with clubs maybe there was some good to it.Maybe the idea was a starting point towards a higher level.
Theoretical physics,over time ,had some real crazy ideas that most PhDs thought silly,eg: the "God" partical that was discovered last week.There are plenty of examples,some turn out to be illusions while others advance us,the point being not to give up to soon.
The "God " in the sky thing will not as you know pass any test but the idea will evolve to a higher level and so on...and providing that we do not blow ourselves out of exsistance,it could become possible,to evolve from the idea of "God",to "God" itself,which is theoretical physics.

Some philosophers debate whither mind created matter or the other way around hummmm.... ,but better leave that one alone for now.

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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #3
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
X: God forbade and punished the development and exercise of that ability.

The knowledge/beliefs possessed by your 'me' is attributing the acts of collective 'me' of people on to what they believed to be 'god', Lidlo.

The concept of god can produce both gentle people and fanatics.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Sudhir Sharma Tue, 24 Jul 2012.

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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #4
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
The concept of god can produce both gentle people

i doubt it.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #5
Thumb_indian-water-buffalo-siting-in-muddy-water Sukinderpal Narula Thailand 32 posts in this forum Offline

I'd suggest that belief in God is a state of mischief. If genuine good arises for a believer, it is in spite of the belief and not a consequence of it.

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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #6
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
The concept of god can produce both gentle people and fanatics.

yes, fear would also do the same. :-)

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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #7
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
The concept of god can produce both gentle people and fanatics.

Gentleness is not produced.

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Wed, 25 Jul 2012 #8
Thumb_indian-water-buffalo-siting-in-muddy-water Sukinderpal Narula Thailand 32 posts in this forum Offline

This is a conversation (slightly edited) in a Sikh discussion group, that I had a few days ago, with a Christian who thinks that the Buddha's teachings, as with all other religions, point to the same truth. He quotes some 13th century Christian mystic.

[QUOTE]"...Do not compute eternity
as light-year after year
One step across that line called Time:
Eternity is here[/QUOTE]

What has necessitated this idea about Eternity?
The nature of the moment as understood by wisdom is that it is fleeting, and there are only fleeting experiences one following another. Whence comes the impression of anything being eternal or that there exists something behind the particular experience?

[QUOTE]How fleeting is this world
yet it survives.
It is ourselves that fade from it
and our ephemeral lives. [/QUOTE]

This is about concepts and not reality. Concepts give out the impression of lasting in time. The world that you refer to exists in time, so too your own self who you judge as lasting only for a short time by comparison. So here we have a story about impermanence / ephemeral in relation to what has in fact been perceived wrongly, as lasting in time. Could this then be wisdom at work or is it merely philosophizing?

Realities when known are perceived not only as disintegrating, but in fact already fallen away by the time that it is known. There is no idea about one falling away while another stays. Indeed it has been pointed out that the real “world” is that which disintegrates, implying that if something is perceived as lasting, even if for only one second, that thing does not qualify as being world / reality.

[QUOTE]Were I to lose myself in the God
I'd find again the Ground
that held and nurtured me
before this earthly round[/QUOTE]

Ideas very opposed to Buddhism.
One, that there is a self to lose. Two, that there is a God / Ground (or any equivalent) from which one emerged, at some point lost connection with, and therefore now seek to merge into or come to realize that there was indeed never any separation.

[QUOTE]I have known wealth and fame
poverty and utter shame
Yet all was transitory
Beyond time I found bliss and glory[/QUOTE]

Although this again is about concepts, it can come from a level of wisdom and cause calm. But bliss, particularly when associated with glory, sounds like sense of achievement which is accompanied by clinging. Glory in relation to what? Bliss itself, like any other mental state is impermanent, unsatisfactory, impersonal and unbeautiful.

[QUOTE]Timelessness
Is so much a part of you, of me -
We cannot hope to find
the Ground
until aware of our eternity [/QUOTE]

Although time is a concept, the basis for this is the fact of experience rising and falling away, one following another on and on. But where is there a place for the concept of “timelessness” to be derived from this understanding?

Timelessness is intimately tied with the concept of eternity. This is one of the two extremes of wrong views, the other being the annihilationist view, which the Buddha's Middle way works directly against. So again we have an outlook, very opposed to the Buddha's.

[QUOTE]Time is of your own making,
its clock ticks in your head.
The moment you stop thought
time too stops dead.[/QUOTE]

There is no stopping the process of thinking. It is the nature of mind to think about the object of the senses each time that the later occur. Therefore the jumping around from one object to another should not be seen as a problem. Indeed were the mind not to behave this way, one wouldn't be able to reach out for an object or do anything else. If any fault exists, it is in the ignorance and attachment which is the driving force and not the thinking. Not realizing this is the reason why the impression of a still mind is mistaken for some profound experience, when in fact it is only thinking with an object different from what happens normally. The perception of “eternity” is another instance of thinking differently coming across as some kind of realization.

[QUOTE]Just one step out of time
I enter God's eternity
and I am wholly freed
from human transciency [/QUOTE]

Human: a concept which is judged as transient.
God: a concept judged as eternal.

Wisdom understands what in fact is really going on.

[QUOTE]Until you lose your Me
you cannot see God's face -
The moment you recover it
you fall from grace[/QUOTE]

Me, mine and I are correspondingly, self-view, attachment and conceit. The only way that the latter two can be eradicated is by first overcoming the former. Eternity view, of which the concept of God is one consequence, is exactly self-view at work. The perception of a “me” needed to be lost is self-view feeding itself. It all comes down to being only a psychological game.

[QUOTE]How short our span!
If you once realized how brief,
you would refrain
from causing any beast or man
the smallest grief, the slightest pain.[/QUOTE]

Such thoughts can be a condition for moral action, kindness and compassion, but they can also be a cause for actions that in fact come from self-interest but wrongly mistaken for good. The difference is in whether there is any understanding with regard to the nature and hence the advantage of wholesome states and the disadvantage of unwholesome states.

When there exists such understanding, almost anything can be a reminder to do good, avoid evil and to cultivate the mind. When this understanding is lacking, then we tend to rely on some kind of script in order that we can then act the desired way, and this of course is not reliable. The only good reason to do good is for the sake of good itself. To rely on a line of thought in order that we can act a certain way will only accumulate the tendency to such, which will lead on another occasion, to look for a reason to act badly.

[QUOTE]Why is there a need to refer
I am God's alter ego
He is my counterpart
In timelessness we merge -
in time we seem apart [/QUOTE]

What is seen as transformation is in reality the story about me, Me and ME. A problem is perceived through the eyes of self, which then projects a solution and subsequently follows a path where this self gets reinforced instead of seen through.

[QUOTE]Most sacred:
The Void's immobility
that makes all move,
retaining its tranquility. [/QUOTE]

One thinks that in referring to a creator, one foregos control and becomes peaceful. But what is not seen is that the problem is in the very belief in a controller. In giving up control of the small self (which never happens) one comes to be identified with the big SELF. Indeed this is worshipping power!

[QUOTE]He has not lived in vain
who learns to be unruffled
by loss, by gain,
by, joy, by pain.[/QUOTE]

A very worthy goal indeed. But is this possible without understanding that these are conditioned phenomena which are impermanent, unsatisfactory and non-self?

[QUOTE]You are not real, Death,
for I die every minute
and am reborn in the next
into life infinite[/QUOTE]

There is death and rebirth not every minute, but billions of times in just one second. The death that is being referred to in this verse must therefore, be simply a story about death centered on the 'me'. If death and rebirth indeed takes place from moment to moment, and the cause for this seen, why then believe that the process discontinues with death consciousness? What kind of existence is this “life infinite” which supposedly happens after conventional death?

[QUOTE]The sage does not fear death.
To often has he died
to ego and its vanities,
to all that keeps man tied.[/QUOTE]

According to the Buddha's teachings what keeps living beings tied to the round of existence and within each lifetime is not ego, but attachment. Misidentifying the problem can never lead to following the correct path leading to final eradication of conceit / ego.

[QUOTE]At the end of that
which we call history
God is who IS:
for Him there is no past
nor future yet to be..."[/QUOTE]

Now and at any time, there are only conditioned mental and physical phenomena (leaving out the unconditioned Nirvana). All these conditioned phenomena have each a set of cause which are nothing but other equally ephemeral mental and physical phenomena. No place for the idea of being creations or part of some abstract concept such as God, the Tao etc.

[QUOTE]Does not this Catholic mystic hit upon the very same truth that you have? [/QUOTE]

I'm sure that now you do not think so. ;-) And of course I did not 'hit upon' the truth, but am more or less simply parroting what the Buddha enlightened into and taught.

[QUOTE]He says that Time is an illusion created by conditioned mind. Step over the line, through the present moment, and find eternity and Immeasurable Being in the here and now. And yet he is a Catholic who does not believe in either karma or reincarnation - and that is my contention, these concepts are not necessary to the truth you have touched upon, which is universal, whereas karma and reincarnation are particular metaphysical concepts born of a specific culture just like the ideas of eternal life, heaven or hell. [/QUOTE]

Well, I say that his “being in the here and now” is in fact a proliferation in the present, of an eternalist view. It has nothing to do with “understanding” the nature of what in fact rises and falls away “now”. Were he to understand the nature of say, seeing or hearing for example, he'd know that these as different from anger or kindness. The former are “resultant” consciousness, whereas the latter are volitional consciousness which is of the nature of “cause”. THIS is the basis for belief in karma and not that which you conceive of and choose to deny. It is from this that belief in rebirth (not reincarnation) then follows.

But even if such study has not happened, does it not make sense to at least believe that there must exist a law of moral cause and effect? Karma is all about moral cause and effect. If you deny this, then please explain the basis for your own sense of morality? What do you understand with regard to the value of moral restraint? Indeed, what is it that you “know” from which you then choose to dismiss the concept of karma?

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Wed, 25 Jul 2012 #9
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Gentleness is not produced.

Don't lose heart.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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