Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #1
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I started a thread titled 'Outrage' and subsequently realised that it probably didn't have much common appeal so I deleted it. Regards, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy 9 (account deleted) Thu, 26 Jul 2012.

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #2
Thumb_elephant_in_the_room r j New Zealand 143 posts in this forum Offline

Katy 9 wrote:
I started a thread titled 'Outrage' and subsequently realised that it probably didn't have much common appeal so I deleted it. Regards, Katy

Gidday Katy,
well it appealed to me and likewise I was moved by the honesty of what I read of you earlier.

What is the 'mad box?

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #3
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

r j wrote:
What is the 'mad box?

Gidday to you, too, r j...If you'd been around in May to read my postings this would not be a question for you...I went mad in type for all to read, sir.

We could use this space to communicate about a topic of your choosing if you wish to(?) Regards, Katy

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #4
Thumb_elephant_in_the_room r j New Zealand 143 posts in this forum Offline

Katy 9 wrote:
We could use this space to communicate about a topic of your choosing if you wish to(?) Regards, Katy

madness is a wonderful topic
misunderstood, judged and feared

and sometimes necessary

do you agree?

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #5
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

r j wrote:
do you agree?

Yes, r j... well said! Katy

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #6
Thumb_elephant_in_the_room r j New Zealand 143 posts in this forum Offline

if it is necessary then how can it meet its purpose
easily, safely

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #7
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

r j wrote:
if it is necessary then how can it meet its purpose
easily, safely

This is a highly important question in my view, r j...

Losing the plot can only be related to 'environmental' influences i.e. as a 'reaction' to other people and/or circumstantial pressure - not forgetting that some illicit drugs make people 'trip out'. This is my honest opinion on the matter and it puts me on the outside of 'mainstream psychiatry' which is prepossessed with pseudoscientific belief. Using the same chalk I would say a lot more but I am sure that you are able to fill in the gaps here r j.

If madness has something to 'teach' (in terms of serving a purpose) then it would be different for each individual I guess.

I think I'll sleep on this one since it is a complex question which I don't wish to answer in a rush.

I wonder what other writers would say in answer to your question (?)

Regards, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy 9 (account deleted) Thu, 26 Jul 2012.

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #8
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Katy 9 wrote:
mainstream psychiatry' which is prepossessed with pseudoscientific belief.

Really? Mainstream psychiatry is pseudo-scientific? Can you provide some examples?

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #9
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
Really? Mainstream psychiatry is pseudo-scientific? Can you provide some examples?

Your questions made me laugh, Lidlo.

I could refer you to the DSM...but it might depress you as it does me.

Katy

This post was last updated by Katy 9 (account deleted) Thu, 26 Jul 2012.

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #10
Thumb_elephant_in_the_room r j New Zealand 143 posts in this forum Offline

Katy 9 wrote:
I think I'll sleep on this one

you are wise

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #11
Thumb_elephant_in_the_room r j New Zealand 143 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Really? Mainstream psychiatry is pseudo-scientific? Can you provide some examples?

Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status.

Shall we begin to number the ways, since its founder in Freud, through electricity, surgery, restraint, removal, chemistry, (oh the chemistry!) that psychiatric medicine has failed the scientific model on all of the above counts...

He who stands with hubris knows well to never look down and never look back.
His history will appall his view

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #12
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

r j wrote:
Shall we begin to number the ways, since its founder in Freud, through electricity, surgery, restraint, removal, chemistry, (oh the chemistry!) that psychiatric medicine has failed the scientific model on all of the above counts...

I'm not surprised that scientists poo-poo psychiatry, but it's a legitimate branch of medicine, so does that mean that all doctors of medicine are pseudo-scientific quacks? I know we have our resident Kwack here, but...

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #13
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

r j wrote:
He who stands with hubris knows well to never look down and never look back.
His history will appall his view

Is this a quote or did you just cough it up?

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #14
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
but it's a legitimate branch of medicine,

This may be so, Lidlo, but it shoots itself in the foot. Katy

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #15
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Katy 9 wrote:
I think I'll sleep on this one

r j wrote:
you are wise

...or tired.

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #16
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Katy 9 wrote:
This may be so, Lidlo, but it shoots itself in the foot. Katy

How so? Doctors (in this country, anyway) are stepping around in some pretty expensive shoes, sans bullet holes, so what are you referring to?

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #17
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
...or tired.

Yes, I am tired. It is exactly midnight here. Goodnight, Katy

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #18
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

r j wrote:
He who stands with hubris knows well to never look down and never look back.
His history will appall his view

You've shown your hand again, Sun, but that's okay. It's enough to fool someone for a moment, if for no other reason but to demonstrate how dependent we are on appearances; how trusting we're willing to be. Keep doing it. It gives meaning to Rick's existence.

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #19
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
How so?

By making bold claims about 'curing' people with chemicals which are certainly useful in the short term for people in altered states and such like BUT I worked for some years trying to help people who had 'lived' in a psychiatric hospital (in the back wards) for 15 years on average. Tardive Dyskinesia is no mean chalk...The 'cure' was worse than the complaint, Lidlo.

lidlo lady wrote:
Doctors (in this country, anyway) are stepping around in some pretty expensive shoes, sans bullet holes, so what are you referring to?

I don't even know if psychiatry has a conscience anymore to be frank...even toddlers are being prescribed psychiatric drugs for being 'too shy'.

The 'diagnoses' require 'belief'...It concerns me that children are too easily being prescribed speed for alleged ADHD.

In a proverbial sense psychiatrists shoot themselves in the foot; I know they are 'well-heeled' (excuse the pun) thanks to the drug companies.

At the end of the day there are 'good' psychiatrists and 'bad' ones.

Compassion is the key in my view and I live in a highly individualistic part of the planet.

In the UK some people can afford to pay privately to consult therapists (the right attention for trauma) but most people who are financially poor end up with an alienating label which often bars them from being able anymore to go to work and so on.

It is possible to make a 'commodity' of a person - just as it is possible to turn people into stigmatized outcasts.

Is this a 'rant', Lidloji? Regards, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy 9 (account deleted) Thu, 26 Jul 2012.

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #20
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Katy 9 wrote:
In a proverbial sense psychiatrists shoot themselves in the foot; I know they are 'well-heeled' (excuse the pun) thanks to the drug companies.

By Jove, you're right! I recently came across the following headline in The New York Times:

Well-Heeled Psychiatrist Shoots Self in Expensively Shod Foot

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Fri, 27 Jul 2012.

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #21
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Katy 9 wrote:
In the UK some people can afford to pay privately to consult therapists (the right attention for trauma) but most people who are financially poor end up with an alienating label which often bars them from being able anymore to go to work and so on.

I'm confused. Help me out here. Are you saying that if you have enough money, you can buy psychotherapy that isn't pseudo-scientific crap, but if you're poor, you get the crap? Are you saying that there's good psychotherapy and bad psychotherapy, that it's all pseudo-scientific crap, or that money performs miracles?

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Fri, 27 Jul 2012.

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #22
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
Are you saying that if you have enough money, you can buy pycho-therapy that isn't pseudo-scientific crap, but that if you're poor, the therapy you get is crap?

More or less - yes, sir.

I think the confusion - element has arisen, Lidlo, because in the UK a person consults a psychiatrist for prescriptions (drugs) and a therapist separately for a 'talking cure' (I don't like this phrase. Maybe I should say for the right attention for trauma which you might agree is the root cause of most mental health problems). I think the set up in the US differs; it would make better sense in the UK for the therapist to have the 'say so' about medication.

Most money is invested in new drugs in the UK, not therapy.

If you are poor, therapy is almost non-existent and the therapists are almost under siege by those who can afford it - by 'the worried well'.

There is a fundamental gap/oversight since therapy/analysis did ought to be needs - led, not money led.

Jungian analysis is a rare jewel here. Freudians seem to be part of the status quo but most of them work privately anyway.

Sorry this is a bit long; it is a long subject for me. Katy

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Fri, 27 Jul 2012 #23
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Thanks for an informative answer. What I gather is that psychotherapy, the "talking cure", is better medicine than the drugs, but the poor can't afford it so they're drugged.

But not everyone is amenable to the talking cure. One has to feel that it's a valid approach, be willing to commit to however long it takes, and most people have neither the patience nor the intelligence to follow through with it.

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Fri, 27 Jul 2012 #24
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
Are you saying that there's good psychotherapy and bad psychotherapy, that it's all pseudo-scientific crap, or that money performs miracles?

I have explained the distinction between a psychiatrist and psychotherapist above; the set up is different in the UK.

Yes, there are people working as psychotherapists who are very able to work with trauma survivors. There are also some feckless people who set themselves up as 'psychotherapists'.

My reference to the 'pseudoscientists' was aimed at the prescribers (psychiatrists) who are drug happy and DSM believers.

I would not say that money performs miracles but having access to the right sort of attention (with or without medication) can be received like a miracle/gift.

To my mind, a good psychotherapist is equipped to deal with projections; I have only found this with the Jungian school and it does not conflict either with K's talking about 'seeing the other person as you'.

'bye for now, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy 9 (account deleted) Fri, 27 Jul 2012.

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Fri, 27 Jul 2012 #25
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
But not everyone is amenable to the talking cure. One has to feel that it's a valid approach, be willing to commit to however long it takes, and most people have neither the patience nor the intelligence to follow through with it.

I appreciate your pointing this out to me, Lidlo. Katy

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Fri, 27 Jul 2012 #26
Thumb_elephant_in_the_room r j New Zealand 143 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
I'm not surprised that scientists poo-poo psychiatry, but it's a legitimate branch of medicine, so does that mean that all doctors of medicine are pseudo-scientific quacks?

not all

by the way psychiatry is not poo-pooed by the scientific community but rather pitied and wished to have even stronger substances to make its particularly embarassing problems go away even further.

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Fri, 27 Jul 2012 #27
Thumb_elephant_in_the_room r j New Zealand 143 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Is this a quote or did you just cough it up?

I coughed it up but then quickly gave thanks to you, the origin of my phlegmatic spittle

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Fri, 27 Jul 2012 #28
Thumb_elephant_in_the_room r j New Zealand 143 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
You've shown your hand again, Sun, but that's okay. It's enough to fool someone for a moment, if for no other reason but to demonstrate how dependent we are on appearances; how trusting we're willing to be. Keep doing it. It gives meaning to Rick's existence.

Damn, I really thought I could carry this one off a bit longer. You guys are really good.
What gave me away?

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Fri, 27 Jul 2012 #29
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
Well-Heeled Psychiatrist Shoots Self in Expensively Shod Foot

:)

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Fri, 27 Jul 2012 #30
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

r j wrote:
psychiatry is not poo-pooed by the scientific community but rather pitied and wished to have even stronger substances to make its particularly embarassing problems go away even further.

What's your beef with "the talking cure" as opposed to drugs?

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