Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The Cat


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Sat, 28 Jul 2012 #1
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

The cat is looking at you, but he can't hold your gaze because that's not his game. He has no interest in what you think. What goes on in your mind means nothing to the cat. Even when you fail to feed him and he's reminding you of your failure, it isn't your mind he's appealing to - it's your behavior.

Behavior is all the cat knows, and he's a master of behavior because he does what he can't imagine, reflect upon, or second-guess. Behavior is all the cat knows, which means he can't know this. What the cat knows, he can't think about, and what the cat thinks, he can't know. This works well for the cat, and it works well for what enjoys the cat's behavior. The cat reminds the self-conscious mind of what it is, and why.

This post was last updated by lidlo lady (account deleted) Sat, 28 Jul 2012.

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Sun, 29 Jul 2012 #2
Thumb_stringio Katy 9 United Kingdom 1197 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
The cat reminds the self-conscious mind of what it is, and why.

Yes. Thanks, Lidlo. Katy

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Mon, 30 Jul 2012 #3
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:

Behavior is all the cat knows, and he's a master of behavior because he does what he can't imagine.

Nah!!She's a master at behavior because she imagines how she can use it for her own benefit.
The Cat in the Hat knows a lot about that.
Its quite likely that psychologist' come back as cats.

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Mon, 30 Jul 2012 #4
Thumb_elephant_in_the_room r j New Zealand 143 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
The cat is looking at you, but he can't hold your gaze because that's not his game. He has no interest in what you think. What goes on in your mind means nothing to the cat. Even when you fail to feed him and he's reminding you of your failure, it isn't your mind he's appealing to - it's your behavior.

Behavior is all the cat knows, and he's a master of behavior because he does what he can't imagine, reflect upon, or second-guess. Behavior is all the cat knows, which means he can't know this. What the cat knows, he can't think about, and what the cat thinks, he can't know. This works well for the cat, and it works well for what enjoys the cat's behavior. The cat reminds the self-conscious mind of what it is, and why.

hmmm hrmphh
so what
self-satisfied people do no good either
tribal animals have more fun,
more stress, but more fun

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Mon, 30 Jul 2012 #5
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

r j wrote:
tribal animals have more fun,

Fun is in knowing how much you're having. The happiest cat doesn't know how happy it is. Pleasure is measure.

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Mon, 30 Jul 2012 #6
Thumb_elephant_in_the_room r j New Zealand 143 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Fun is in knowing how much you're having. The happiest cat doesn't know how happy it is. Pleasure is measure.

try giving your feline master a half measure at dinner time and see if that registers on the happy cat-o-meter

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Mon, 30 Jul 2012 #7
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
Behavior is all the cat knows, which means he can't know this. What the cat knows, he can't think about, and what the cat thinks, he can't know. This works well for the cat, and it works well for what enjoys the cat's behavior. The cat reminds the self-conscious mind of what it is, and why.

Hey L .L quite an intelligent cat you have ha ! :) Thank God it doesn't have self conscious mind like we have ! What all it has got is instinctive , innate intelligence , that's why it may never ever understand what is compassion / love , well may be that can come into being once this self conscious mind of ours ' understands itself .....

Humility is , when we face / see /and accept the way we are ....
Well nothing catty I guess ! :)

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Mon, 30 Jul 2012 #8
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
it may never ever understand what is compassion / love , well may be that can come into being once this self conscious mind of ours ' understands itself

You mean it can never pretend to know about "compassion / love" the way people do.

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Mon, 30 Jul 2012 #9
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

r j wrote:
try giving your feline master a half measure at dinner time and see if that registers on the happy cat-o-meter

That's my point. Happiness is measure.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #10
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dear Lidlo,

Your cat is exactly like every other cat in these regards. The cat has ennervation, instinct, sensory-motor skills and emotion (though tightly packaged). But it does not have a fore-brain, cannot hold and manipulate images, as can the human brain. It remembers that which is pertinent as associations of sensation, body-feeling and emotional waves - wants and felts. But there is no continuity to such felts and wants. They come and go according to the sensations that associate them.

The memory of a cat, sensory, emotive, motor-sensory, is available only in the moment, only due to stimulation, external or internal (eg. hunger). Otherwise, it has no continuity in time. Time is chronological for the cat, a series of events that command its mind into various actions. It does not know this chronology however, cannot recall or command it. The cat is at the mercy of 'events.'

Now, what about the human?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #11
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

By the way, the cat cannot hold your gaze for one good reason - it does not understand why you are gazing: Your gaze does not fit any of the instinctive patterns programmed into the cat, such as fear, danger, disgust, pain, hunger, sex etc etc. For one animal to stare at another, something must be going on. The stare is a form of communication. The whole body-stance is part of the stare. To the cat, your stare has no meaning, therefore it is rather confusing (yes, the cat may be capable of a confusion). And that confusion, if it is uncomfortable, is turned away from. And, it is the same with us. Just try 'staring' at someone on a crowded bus!

The cat, in short, has little sense of what we call 'wonder.' He has curiousity however.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Tue, 31 Jul 2012.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #12
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
That's my point. Happiness is measure.

Hmm Happiness !! So far much unheard of in this forum . Well we all know how to make our cats happy , just provide them their favorite food , may be give them a bit of comforts and do slight looking after , well we have happy animals . But how is a human being remain happy ?

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #13
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 700 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
But how is a human being remain happy ?

Not by working 8 to 12 hours a day 345 days of the year like most people do around the globe.
That is collective insanity. And we are pushing our children down that precipice too.
My child found a job at a counsulting monster where he will be squeezed like a lemon for the next few years to then either (a) jump to another consulting monster and repeat process for slightly increased pay; or (b) make its own consulting whatever and squeeze himself like a lemon to withstand the ever increasing tide of competition that is munching away at humanity .
Great.

Hurray ... :-((

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #14
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Time is chronological for the cat, a series of events that command its mind into various actions. It does not know this chronology however, cannot recall or command it. The cat is at the mercy of 'events.'
Now, what about the human?

Thanks for restating everything I said in your words. As for your closing question, "the human", the self-conscious mind, is at the mercy of its version of events; its version of what has happened and is happening. Its version is only as good as its ability to process sense data into information, and to put this information into a narrative that comforms to a standard, or stands up to rigorous scrutiny.

When the mind is conditioned to process its information in a certain, peculiar way such as through the K-filter, everything comes out K-correct. But this same mind can see what it's doing (if it cares to), and remove the filter.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #15
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1228 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
Not by working 8 to 12 hours a day 345 days of the year like most people do around the globe.
That is collective insanity. And we are pushing our children down that precipice too.

Not too long ago in geological terms the human population of the earth was numbered in the low thousands. Some where not so long ago humans began to develop simple techniques to make their lives more secure. Simple technologies allowed humans to push back some of the factors that limited human numbers. With an ever expanding technology human numbers began an ever accelerating expansion. As long as new technologies could be developed there was an expanding production of the actual necessities for human life so population on the average could grow. Two problems can be noticed accompanying this expansion of technology and numbers. One is the limit of physical natural resources. This is obvious. The expansion is geometric like interest. As interest accrues the interest added starts to accrue interest. Ten percent of one hundred Is ten. Ten percent of one thousand is one hundred. But the earths resources are limited.

The other problem is not so obvious. It causes a suffering that people take for granted as just the way life is. Technology allows a division of labor. One individuals specializes at one thing and another specializes at another. This allows an increase in production. As things are now, with the technology that has developed, one farmer can produce thousands of times the wheat he could consume. He can feed thousands. He farms a vast anchorage with heavy machinery. Using vast amounts of fuel and fertilizer and seed. This way the most production can be got out of the natural resources, land and water and so on, that are available. That kind of production cannot be accomplished with thousands of farmers utilizing the same resources any more than one factory worker can be replaced by one hundred. Each one would have to take his or her ten minute on the line or on the machine and then step aside for the next who doesn't know where the tools are since their last ten minute shift and doesn't know what's been happening to the machine, or what job is underway and has just started to look at the blueprints. The actual necessities of human existence: food, water, fuel, shelter, clothing.... What is actually necessary can and must be produced by only a few workers, working intensively. Twelve to sixteen hour days and seven days a week if they can do it, and thinking about it while they are sleep. Haven't you noticed how often the boss wants you to work overtime? This intensive production by the few is now necessary else the production of just what is necessary for the seven billion will fall short.

But a small number producing the necessities, working intensively while others are idle is not something that will ever work. Those on the line or in the field will look over their shoulder and see the others who are idle. They will see that being with those others is to be preferred. So what has happened, not intentionally, nobody designed it. What has happened is that society has developed so as to have everybody working, to the extent that it can be done, just as hard as those in necessities production. And what will they be doing? They are all without realizing it motivating others. They are producing wants not necessities. The whole of society is a motivation machine. So some are wealthy in excesses and others envy them. Envying "success". And others are the poor and the homeless and looked down upon as failures. And everyone Is trying to discover what might be something new that everyone will want. Each one trying to get more money so as to be able to get these things another might have.

I want to point out again that no one designed this. This whole condition is not the result of some plan. Just each separate little bit is some ones innocent or not so innocent contribution that has brought about the situation that humanity finds itself in. Most significantly there are too many of us. Having babies beyond replacement level (beyond two per female) played a big part (at present only reduction levels, (two
Is too many), can be said to not add to the stress on environment and society)

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #16
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
Not too long ago in geological terms.....bla bla blabbbbblaaa bla bla bla..........................................................................................................bla bal bla bla
bla bla....................

not add to the stress on environment and society)

The cat is looking at you....He has no interest in what you think.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #17
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Actually, Peter's summation of the human condition wasn't bad at all. It indicated thinking outside the K-box, which is unusual for this forum.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #18
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:The cat will not hole your gaze because it cannot...

Naw!The cat does not hold your gaze because you are not very interesting to it.Its thinking,'what a bore,looks at me then a piece of paper,then me again..no cheese,no ball of yarn,hmm..may as well sleep.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #19
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

john Campbell wrote:
.Its thinking,'what a bore

Cat's do not 'think' in that way, John. Your statement is anthropomorphic.

Look at a human child for more than a few seconds. They do not get bored, they feel awkward. Why? Because a stare is programmed to require a response and there vis no appropriate response as the stare appears to have no meaning. That's why stares make us feel nervous. Same for animals.

We humans have the same default progamming as animals with regard to staring. Animals however cannot think the thing through. In that respect your response was animalistic.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #20
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
Actually, Peter's summation of the human condition wasn't bad at all. It indicated thinking outside the K-box, which is unusual for this forum.

Peter is not in a box, or at least, it is not a coffin. The lid hasn't been nailed down. However, his extrapolations and mind-experiments can be rather confusing as he often doesn't ground his imagination in the concrete. Imagination is a great tool, when grounded. The K-line however is that it should be put in a death cell. Many K-followers imagine they have successfully done so.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #21
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
the self-conscious mind, is at the mercy of its version of events; its version of what has happened and is happening. Its version is only as good as its ability to process sense data into information, and to put this information into a narrative that comforms to a standard, or stands up to rigorous scrutiny.

I disagree, Lidlo. The human mind has to offer its version of events to the trial and tribulation, the daily grind of ongoing experiential reality. It has to adapt or die. Versions change and newness emerges.

And in this sense it is not so different from that of the animal, which learns and puts down into memory the daily events of any significance. That is not the difference between the human and the other animals. They all judge the present from the past and are all open to changing the conditioning accordinbg to powerful new experiential data.

But the issue of the 'narrative' is more pertinent. The human carries his history as an ongoing narrative. Why? Let us not consider it as a good or a bad thing, but just consider it, the functional reality of it.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #22
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
Hmm Happiness !! So far much unheard of in this forum .

Oh no. I started a thread on 'ARE YOU HAPPY?' last December and it was very much the thing. I got an appalling response for asking such an "idiotic" question from some quarters. Apparently I was not following the ABC of KY jelly-thought.

And many people here seem so terribly unhappy yet seem unaware of the problematic nature of that poverty of spirit. Even suffering is seen as a virtue, after all, all religions preach it.

What would you say about happiness, Pavani?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Tue, 31 Jul 2012.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #23
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
What would you say about happiness, Parvani?

My guess is she'd be happy if you removed the "r" from her name.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #24
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Oh no. I started a thread on 'ARE YOU HAPPY?' last December and it was very much the thing.

Yeah, I got on your case about your "fake happiness", and the Kennedy kid jumped in...ah, the good 'ol days.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #25
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Your statement is anthropomorphic.

If we are having fun with cats,this becomes my privilege.
Children and kittens are not bored easily,teenagers and cats however have better things to do.
There are many many reasons for staring,a poker game for example or a cat and mouse game.(which can be fun,even if you are not a Kat).
Now take a BIG cat and a smaller human,you would have to say that the cat will hold its stare but just up to supper time.
Cats do think.If it depends on survival it will figure a way to become a resident of your household,I,ve watched them and they have a million tricks up their claws.They will wake you up in times of danger and can sense when you are ill(I'll give you that one),and even if you don't know that you are ill it will 'think' of a way to get the message across.
There is lots of anthropomorphic 'stuff' in the animal world.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #26
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
My guess is she'd be happy if you removed the "r" from her name.

Done. Thanks.

lidlo lady wrote:
Yeah, I got on your case about your "fake happiness", and the Kennedy kid jumped in...ah, the good 'ol days.

Well, you kind of waded in there. Actually I never portrayed myself as being either happy or unhappy. The question was posed to discern between those moods that come and go and the deeper sense of wellbeing that is actual when we are in our flow at a deeper level. Sometimes its better to try to get a feel of what the other person is saying, Lidlo, rather than running in to knock their teeth out.

But there are all the baloney books and guides to 'being happy' that fail to distinguish at any level between ephemeral moods and deep wellbeing. 'How to be Happy' Yuk!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #27
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

john Campbell wrote:
If we are having fun with cats,this becomes my privilege.

I didn't find the humour relevent, sorry John. Didn't have the energy for it.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #28
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I didn't find the humour relevent, sorry John. Didn't have the energy for it.

Cool,no problem.
However you can find truth in humour and sometimes it seems necessary for energies sake. The K-Mart however seems to have a different idea. Cheers.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #29
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

john Campbell wrote:
Cool,no problem.
However you can find truth in humour and sometimes it seems necessary for energies sake. The K-Mart however seems to have a different idea. Cheers.

True, but the inane humour seems to sap energy rathger than extend it. It can be good to relieve tension, when necessary. Even inanity has its merits.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 01 Aug 2012 #30
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
True,...inanity has its merits.

Inanity is in the eye of the..........?

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