Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Wed, 06 Feb 2013 #211
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Julia Alejandra Rojas wrote:
K was always very concerned with 'creating the right religious atmosphere

Creating the right atmosphere is indeed very important for any thing and everything in life Julia , don't you agree ? Well when we were discussing about  upbringing and child rearing few days back in this  thread we both have agreed the essential and intrinsic  element of creating a healthy , proper atmosphere for children  to grow and realize their potential ... 

For that matter what about ourselves ... Don't you see the utter necessity of creating the correct atmosphere for-understanding  ourselves and our lives not about some Mr .  K or of some body on this forum ? ... In the sense  sorting out our various activities , taking a stock of what  we are doing with ourselves ....and creating space for going through and going deep into all these matters ....    

Regarding your observations of  what K did while conducting his talks .. Well for me his  talks , and in those talks people's responses are far more stimulating and  interesting to note and they had  far  deeper impressions  on my mind ... 

Well may be we both of us are going in two different tangents ...  like in your case it may be a mere observation and I  as usual  have gone on some what serious and in a  lecture mode ! :)
 ( incidentally I'm rather feeling bored of writing in that mode ... How boring it might be sounding to the reader ? ) 

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Mon, 11 Feb 2013 #212
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
what he actually had to say to us.

T

It's been long since we have chatted in this thread , so is  with Julia and with J . C ( who have become sort of regular members of late ) 

Talking of K's famous precept  ' find out for your selves sirs ' .... 

I came up with few realities that I would like to share ... Recently I had been away for a while visiting my friend who had to share a lot of things with me . She narrated her experiences of how she tried to do her best to bring peace between her father and brothers who for some reasons  are very angry with their old man and are not in talking terms with him .. Well money matters , expectations from both the father and sons , adding to it is their wives negative attitudes , and more than any thing the old mind sets ... all these factors are responsible I guess for the assumed differences .. My friend being the nice one in the family wanting to have peace and harmony among the family members feels that she caused lot of anguish to her father in trying to help him see things as they are ... 

Well to cut the long story short ultimately we both felt that it's better to live with in convenient truths and un comfortable realities than to live in the cocoon of false sense of securities .... though in her father's case it may be a bit late to go into all that .

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Mon, 11 Feb 2013 #213
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

pavani rao wrote:
' find out for your selves sirs ' ....

it's better to live with in convenient truths and un comfortable realities than to live in the cocoon of false sense of securities .... .

life is celebration

J.C.>>

HI Pavi:

Perhaps,if after several diagnosis and lectures from different Doctors

the patient remains unconvinced ,the cocoon may offer the only refuge
from life's uncertainties ,'right' and 'wrong',become only obscure markings,
in a maze of scribble.

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Mon, 11 Feb 2013 #214
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 388 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
Well to cut the long story short ultimately we both felt that it's better to live with in convenient truths and un comfortable realities than to live in the cocoon of false sense of securities .... though in her father's case it may be a bit late to go into all that .

Hi Pavani, i think that once you've seen the truth of a certain fact, it is no longer convenient or inconvenient. It's past that. Much as we do not like the fact, there's no way we can go back to the lie is there?

Yes, I think a lot of people's problems are linked to this dissociating from reality. facts being one thing and we embellishing them to suit our own perspectives, in order not to be disturbed, challeged, feel insecure, whatever. I see this every day. God forbid, even in hindsight i see i used to do it a lot (hope not so much any more, but hey, one never knows....)

So, ..... should we pull the carpet from under the person's feet so to speak, shock them into seeing what they are doing? I would say no. First they will possibly not see a thing anyway; second even if they do, for a split second, it will go back to darkness and they'll hate you in the process.

So, how can one help? Only way i see is, if you see anyone displaying any signs of wanting to do the carpet-pulling themselves, be there for them and hold their hand while they are doing it. I believe this is what K did.

other than that, i feel there's no way you can open somebody else's eyes unless they want to (or are ready to, or whatever).

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Mon, 11 Feb 2013 #215
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 388 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

also (sorry, can you tell i am not at work today ...? :-)) - also, today's quote, i feel, is about this. Having faith in love, in God, whatever is an anchorage.

An anchor :


  1. keeps you from drifting away or keeps you harbored, and safe;

BUT


  1. by keeping the ship fixed to a location, it also prevents it from navigating...

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Mon, 11 Feb 2013 #216
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
An anchor :

keeps you from drifting away or keeps you harbored, and safe;

BUT

by keeping the ship fixed to a location, it also prevents it from navigating..

J.C.>

You anchor to rest and ponder,
That's loves gift to you.

You break anchor to navigate,
That's your gift to love.

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Tue, 12 Feb 2013 #217
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
think that once you've seen the truth of a certain fact, it is no longer convenient or inconvenient

Hi T 

Well I do agree with you there but you know what T whatever we consider to be the truth of the matter, I feel it changes from situation to situation and from context to context, and  from period to period ... There is nothing called only truth and the whole truth ... Hmm it sounds like a major statement ... I would like to hear what you want to say . 

B Teulada wrote:
think a lot of people's problems are linked to this dissociating from reality. facts being one thing and we embellishing them to suit our own perspectives

B Teulada wrote:
second even if they do, for a split second, it will go back to darkness and they'll hate you in the process

How exactly true ! Incidentally my friend feels the same . Her brothers stopped talking to her as they feel she is too interfering and is trying to correct them knowing fully well that she is doing all that for the common good  of the family . 

B Teulada wrote:
there for them and hold their hand while they are doing it. I believe this is what K did.

To that paragraph all my appreciation to you . Well what shall we call this ! Simple common sense ? Insightful looking into the matters ? Or intelligence working ? 

B Teulada wrote:
other than that, i feel there's no way you can open somebody else's eyes unless they want to (or are ready to, or whatever).

Hey all this awareness in what you consider to be just a couple of years of reading / listening to K ? Just Imagine ! 

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Tue, 12 Feb 2013 #218
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Dear T & j

B Teulada wrote:
An anchor :

keeps you from drifting away or keeps you harbored, and safe;

BUT

by keeping the ship fixed to a location, it also prevents it from navigating...

john Campbell wrote:
You anchor to rest and ponder,
That's loves gift to you.

You break anchor to navigate,
That's your gift to love .

Well one wouldn't have agreed better comprehension of the quote than this .

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Tue, 12 Feb 2013 #219
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

pavani rao wrote:
B Teulada wrote:

, how can one help? Only way i see is, if you see anyone displaying any signs of wanting to do the carpet-pulling themselves, be there for them and hold their hand while they are doing it. I believe this is what K did.

J.C.>
Maybe consider holding the feet instead??

Ji K>Now when you control or force the mind you are distorting it, aren't you? K(The Beginnings of Learning.)

Pavia >
Her brothers stopped talking to her as they feel she is too interfering and is trying to correct them knowing fully well that she is doing all that for the common good of the family .
J.C.>
Silence, sometimes a manifestation of an inner turmoil .
Ji K >
If there is real relationship between ... people, which means there is communion between them, then the implications are enormous. Then there is no isolation; there is love and not responsibility or duty. It is the people who are isolated behind their walls who talk about duty and responsibility. A man who loves does not talk about responsibility - he loves. Therefore he shares with another his joy, his sorrow, his money.
J.C. >
It seems as though your friends actions are an outer manifestation of her inner love.

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Tue, 12 Feb 2013 #220
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 388 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:

think that once you've seen the truth of a certain fact, it is no longer convenient or inconvenient

Hi T

Well I do agree with you there but you know what T whatever we consider to be the truth of the matter, I feel it changes from situation to situation and from context to context, and from period to period ... There is nothing called only truth and the whole truth ... Hmm it sounds like a major statement ... I would like to hear what you want to say .

Hi Pavani, what i mean is this: to me, listening to K is - like John (Raica) says - being exposed to a direct source of truth. Everything that K has wiped away in me, will never re-construct, or re-form itself. all he says about sorrow, relationship, religion, has been seen in a completely new light and the ideas i held before about all these things are gone forever.
I remember when i first came here, something Patricia once wrote impressed me very much (maybe for its simplicity really). She wrote there was no "turning back" after K, or something like this.

And this is what i feel too. You know like there's Teulada before Krishnamurti and Teulada after Krishnamurti and they don't seem to be the same person even.

That's what i meant.

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Tue, 12 Feb 2013 #221
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
I remember when i first came here, something Patricia once wrote impressed me very much (maybe for its simplicity really). She wrote there was no "turning back" after K, or something like this

True,if one really understood JK's teachings in thier true perspective,it would atleast leaves one, where is one truely suppose to be,though one may be far from the transition that he was advocating for.

nothing

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Tue, 12 Feb 2013.

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Tue, 12 Feb 2013 #222
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 1570 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
True,if one really understood JK's teachings in thier true perspective,it would atleast leaves one, where is one truely suppose to be,though one may be far from the transition that he was advocating for.

Yes to all you have said, it seems it does leave a mark. In some cases it is as stronger resistance and in others as an opening.

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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Wed, 13 Feb 2013 #223
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 388 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
it would atleast leaves one, where is one truely suppose to be,though one may be far from the transition that he was advocating for.

Dear ArjunaRao, yes, this is what i feel too. Not anywhere near where he wished us to be but at least not convinced that my utter confusion is total clarity. I am in utter confusion anyway, but at least I know i am in confusion. Makes the world of difference.

Cheers,

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Wed, 13 Feb 2013 #224
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

You are the confusion.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Wed, 13 Feb 2013 #225
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Eve G. wrote:
In some cases it is as stronger resistance and in others as an opening.

I agree that we hardly question our resistance to see thing that is not in our know how.Probabaly one needs to be assured about the out come to give up resistance.Is there anybody who can assure one of (psychological) transformation?

nothing

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Wed, 13 Feb 2013 #226
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
Not anywhere near where he wished us to be but at least not convinced that my utter confusion is total clarity. I am in utter confusion anyway, but at least I know i am in confusion

Yes,he makes you start the probe from one's own self.There are people in the market who make us feel that we are our desire,but that is with a motive to sell thier products .That makes self-knowing incomplete.We are mostly confused in the market,and that makes us resort to choices, which is what the selling is all about.

nothing

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Wed, 13 Feb 2013.

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #227
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Forum closed 

Just now I happen to read some entries in the forum Lounge and thought will respond to them but alas !  to  my disappointment I noticed the forum is closed . well it certainly felt disturbing and raised lot of questions,  and am also wondering when the same fate may befall on other forums ... 
This in itself can be a good topic of discussion and debate .

Well this whole business of people asking other fellow posters to stay away from their posts or threads and when that is done talk or make fun of them freely as if that is a very important thing to do ... And finally our broad minded, benevolent moderator just couldn't take any more and decided to call it quits ... 

Well as a member of these forums for almost a year or so I would like to say that reading / posting / interacting in here had been a great help for me and I' m sure it is the case for all of us. At the same time we have to keep in mind   these are not coffee table discussions we are having , but doing much more and many times more complicated / serious task of learning about us and our behavior , so naturally lot of over lapping may take place . And when we are making use of this facility I strongly feel one should abide by the forum rules and it's very necessary to keep a stringent check on one's unruly behavior ... Learning and listening does not take place  in isolation and in alienation but only when we are all interacting with each other and  being open and tolerant of each other . 
May be that's what K meant when he used to say that it's not about one person's salvation / transformation   and if it has to happen should happen in the collective  efforts from every body . 

Thanks . 

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #228
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
Just now I happen to read some entries in the forum Lounge and thought will respond to them but alas ! to my disappointment I noticed the forum is closed .

Your statement is false. The Lounge has been closed for hours now, so you would have had to click on 'Show Closed Forums' to read there.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

This post was last updated by Dean R. Smith (account deleted) Sat, 16 Feb 2013.

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #229
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Dean 

Thanks for helping me with  that piece of information , that too in your typical characteristic style  :) 

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #230
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
Thanks for helping me with that piece of information , that too in your typical characteristic style :)

Better than flat out calling you a liar, wasn't it?

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #231
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Dean R. Smith wrote:
Better than flat out calling you a liar, wasn't it?

What is your point ? That is if at all there is one .

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #232
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 1570 posts in this forum Offline

Dean R. Smith wrote:
Better than flat out calling you a liar, wasn't it?

In Asia this is not lying. It is a polite and indirect way to express disappointment, so no-one will be offended.

What we do in the west by expressing ourselves directly is seen as rude and Impolite. Impolite and loosing face are two cultural dances one must master.

Here its cool to verbally 'kill' someone as long as it is done with the right type of decorum ;). Murder with a smile :)

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

This post was last updated by Eve G. Sat, 16 Feb 2013.

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #233
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Eve G. wrote:
Impolite and loosing face are two cultural dances one must master.

Thanks Eve for that clarification . Yes cultural differences and how they affect , influence and change our behavior ... This in itself forms another dimension of human nature .At the same time I wonder if there can be so much of misinterpretation  in  differentiating rudeness  from politeness . I 'm sure we all had learnt if not any serious things from our schooling days and from our societies ,  at least how to respect each other and being polite to each other ... 

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #234
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 1570 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Pavani,

I spent many years in India and Asia and I have never seen the amount of disrespect/venom displayed towards K and the teachings as I see on this forum.

In the west some of this being polite is seen as hypocritical conduct. This is superficial right?

The best lesson I have learnt in Asia is patience, to hold on to ones opinion and temper and still communicate it with reason.

But the amount of hypocrisy and back-stabbing 'politely' that goes on here is also a short coming of this 'being polite'. It is not what in your words that counts but what you have in your heart that makes the difference. Right?

The problem here on the forum all we have is many cultures and many words, and words can be interpreted in many ways.

Intelligence from the Latin origin means to read between the lines, here on this forum we need to read between the human/cultural lines as well.

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #235
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1930 posts in this forum Offline

Eve G. wrote:
I spent many years in India and Asia and I have never seen the amount of disrespect/venom displayed towards K and the teachings as I see on this forum.

This is an important point to make Eve.

Having not spent so much time around 'K-people' (for want of a better word) the amount of vitriol displayed toward K and the teaching here is truly amazing to observe.

The only explanation would seem to be that the 'self' is really threatened by what K wrote, and it comes here (in particular) to vigorously defend its territory. :)

Even on other K forums this does not occur to the same extent.

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #236
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 388 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
Well as a member of these forums for almost a year or so I would like to say that reading / posting / interacting in here had been a great help for me and I' m sure it is the case for all of us.

Hi Pavani,
of course it is so, although sometimes you can feel that the exchanges here cease to be about honest debate (which may very well naturally involve opinions both for and against K, I very much accept that) but simply about egos that are so large as to be pathological.
what can one do then?
nothing really, this is clearly not the place to enable attention seeking or ego fuelling, and one can only hope the dust will settle without many injured (as with an asteroid :-) by the way, did you follow that !??)

take care

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #237
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Eve G. wrote:
is not what in your words that counts but what you have in your heart that makes the difference. Right?

Eve G. wrote:
read between the lines

Well I really appreciate Eve for taking pains to go into that lengthy passage in trying to explain behavior patterns seen and observed on the first hand basis :)   Largely we all know that people are same every where , which we read and understood  in our college days while  going through  Shakespeare and various other literary figures .

Coming to India , well there is an entirely different story seen and felt here . To go into all the details describing people and behavior patterns forms an enormous  study in itself as I mentioned already  in the above post . 

You know Eve interestingly K talked quite elaborately describing human mind based on the nations as American mind , Indian mind English and French .. in the book Kitchen Chronicles ( may be some other time I'll post that extract from the book here .) 

Yes you are absolutely right when we write from the  heart that is what touches and acts on the other. It is reading between the lines and also  seeing the totality of the person as one expresses / interacts ,  the content of what one is saying and is recorded that's what determines the true color  of the individual in forums like these where it's only one poster meeting and greeting the other :) 

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #238
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
by the way, did you follow that !??)

Hi T

It seems I had missed that astronomical wonder :( may be better luck next time .

By the way don't miss reading post 324 from K the essential texts kind courtesy John Raica , which apparently as mentioned by John of one of K's younger days speeches .it's real beauty in clarity and K was not in one of super serious modes where in comprehension some times goes above our heads .

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #239
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
What is your point ? That is if at all there is one .

What was the point of altering the sequence of events? Why did you deliberately make a false statement?

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

This post was last updated by Dean R. Smith (account deleted) Sat, 16 Feb 2013.

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Sat, 16 Feb 2013 #240
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1930 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
but simply about egos that are so large as to be pathological.
what can one do then?

Observe one's own!

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