Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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It's the FEELING


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Mon, 18 Feb 2013 #1
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

Lidlo wrote: "We know why the words of Nietzsche and Freud carry weight, but the words of Krishnamurti either float around like a halo or grate on one's ears, so please, if you can, explain your dogged loyalty and commitment to this man and his teachings. I request this explanation not only for my own sake, but because you owe it to yourself to articulate clearly why you think Krishnamurti was not a crank."

Lidlo,
It's the FEELING that there is a better way to live that explains my loyalty and commitment to the teachings. Feelings are not rational, but they are substantial; enough for me to not abandon the teachings. I know this sounds like hope, and we know what K said about hope. Research has shown that hope is essential to psychological health. Then again, so are the teachings.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

This post was last updated by Ruth Bass Mon, 18 Feb 2013.

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Mon, 18 Feb 2013 #2
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

I just received an email from Lidlo Lady responding to my comments. I thought I'd share her response here. (Sorry Jack, I'm not convince Lidlo is Nick.) I do apologize for posting the Lidlo's word "K-nuts", which she undobtedly considers me.

"Ruth,Thank you for your honest reply to my question. Yes, feelings are substantial. Emotions drive and govern our behavior, so we can't ignore, discount, or dismiss feelings. But what about examining our compelling feelings? Does Jack examine his compulsion to take issue with everything I say? Of course not! He feels he's right and I'm wrong. That's the way it is with K-nuts - this or that, in or out, self or no self, good-bad, right-wrong, etc. As Julia pointed out about Sudhir, he has an eye for contradiction but not for paradox.

I feel that people are drawn to The Teaching because it is paradoxical. Paradoxicality attracts people because it induces the feeling of wholeness, undividedness, oneness. Consider the following paradoxes:

(1) The World Teacher proclaims that there is no authority

(2) He himself says there is no self

(3) You must undergo a radical transformation that you can't do anything to bring about

(4) You are the world

(5) The observer is the observed

K-nuts, of course, will deny this vehemently and Jack will lead the charge, but let's face it, The Teaching is all about wholeness, oneness, individuality, and not about conflict.

Of course there's all the talk about love and compassion which is irresistible to those with a penchant for platitudes, but it's really the feeling that Krishnamurti can lead you to where there is no division or conflict; to a realization of how all is one and there are no contradictions or opposites anywhere but in the mind.

This is a valid feeling, but if it isn't examined and understood, one never gets beyond the teacher to what the teacher represents."

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

This post was last updated by Ruth Bass Mon, 18 Feb 2013.

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Mon, 18 Feb 2013 #3
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

Paradoxes propel, incinerate thought, then free up the brain.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

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Tue, 19 Feb 2013 #4
Thumb_stringio Katy Alias 1 United Kingdom 31 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:

Questioning the teaching is actually teaching.
When you don't follow k then actually you follow him.
What is there in teaching to make it religion? No ritual, no prayer, no church, no mantra, no priest, nothing assured, no one to help, it's a suggestion to stand alone and to find out yourself.>

Thanks for this observation, Dhiru.

Is this what people mean about the 'paradoxical-element' being discussed by others here at the moment?

Katy

This post was last updated by Katy Alias 1 (account deleted) Tue, 19 Feb 2013.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2013 #5
Thumb_anastasia Anastasia Kovas United States 29 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Bass wrote:
I feel that people are drawn to The Teaching because it is paradoxical. Paradoxicality attracts people because it induces the feeling of wholeness, undividedness, oneness

I think paradox is a good brain twister, wringing it out sort of. But I'm attracted Krishnamurti teaching for the feeling it gives me, the calmness. It is beyond intellect.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2013 #6
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi Ruth. I do not comment much but I want to say I agree that its the feeling K gives and not anything intellectual. Like you say it is too paradoxical to discuss. I just get a good feeling looking at his photo and hearing his voice. It is comforting and gives me hope. Why do they argue so much here?

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Wed, 20 Feb 2013 #7
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

Arthur Landon wrote:
Like you say it is too paradoxical to discuss.

Actually, Arthur, I was quoting from an email sent to me from Lidlo Lady, who had posted the question about our committment to the teachings. Lidlo Lady was banned, but I thought her email was an important comment.

Arthur Landon wrote:
Why do they argue so much here?

They argue so much here because of the struggle for power, an ego thing. Some are offended, some offend. But certainly not all. I only get to visit here from time to time, as my schedule can be quite exhausting.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

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Wed, 20 Feb 2013 #8
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

Anastasia Kovas wrote:
I think paradox is a good brain twister, wringing it out sort of.

I think paradox is an excellent educational tool.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

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Thu, 21 Feb 2013 #9
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

Paradoxes propel, incinerate thought, then free up the brain.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

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Sun, 24 Feb 2013 #10
Thumb_avatar Manfred Kritzler Germany 3 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Bass wrote:

Paradoxes propel, incinerate thought, then free up the brain.

That is very interesting. I never saw it this way, although I recognized that paradoxes are a necessary and unavoidable part of language.

Language is based on thought, thought is based on a model and a model is (by definition) always smaller than the whole context. So on our way of deeper and deeper understanding at a certain point a paradox must show up.

If we do not recognize this, we have a tendency to understand what other people say or write by its wording. And I think that can lead to an endless discussion. We try to express ourselves correctly and think at any point in the future we will understand also Krishnamurti in a correct way.

I think there is no way to understand someone a hundert percent in a logical way, because each human being is always talking and acting out of a different context. But clearly also the validity of this statement is limited.

This does not mean communication does not work or we are not able to experience oneness. But I think we can not reach it if we try to do it by exchanging only our limited ways of thinking. The end of this exchange must be a paradox. But there is also a chance to get an insight beyond this (logical) paradox, provided we allow it to come to our mind.

And what I have learned today: Paradoxes might even be a good assistant to go beyond thought, because they can show us its limitation.

This post was last updated by Manfred Kritzler Sun, 24 Feb 2013.

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Sun, 24 Feb 2013 #11
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5800 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Bass wrote:
It's the FEELING that there is a better way to live that explains my loyalty and commitment to the teachings.

What does the word "loyalty" mean? According to the dictionary and the commonly accepted definition to be loyal means:

Loyal- faithful to those persons, ideals, etc that one is under obligation to defend or support.

I would like to suggest that anyone who feels loyal to K is very, very confused as to what K was saying.

Ruth Bass wrote:
I know this sounds like hope, and we know what K said about hope. Research has shown that hope is essential to psychological health.

But Ruth, if you know what K said about hope why would you continue to hold on to that particular illusion? Forget the research that says hope is essential etc. What do you think hope is? Is hope essential for you? And if you think it is why?

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Sun, 24 Feb 2013 #12
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
What do you think hope is? Is hope essential for you? And if you think it is why?

For me, hope represents the possibility that an outcome of my present actions will benefit me at a later date. Actions to care for my health, my property, my earning capcity will yeild benefit when I am 80. Without hope, I'd not be motivated to take the actions, including risks, I take today.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #13
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Bass wrote:
Without hope, I'd not be motivated to take the actions, including risks, I take today.

Well in here there goes  a popular saying      '  on the fringes of Hope the whole world exists ' ... 

I think there is a lot of meaning in that saying  especially  when we are considering the famous quote of K 
' you are the world and the world is you ' ...   

Unless one takes risks or one goes deep out of one's depths there will be no way of  finding out the reality of things .
 

It's good to have  people like you here Ruth . 

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #14
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
It's good to have people like you here Ruth .

Says one liar to another liar. You never responded as to why you fabricated a story and Ruth gave a bullshit excuse for her Personal Profile lie. You're a curious pair. :)

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #15
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Dean R. Smith wrote:
You're a curious pair. :)

Hey Dean 

Are'nt you sounding a bit  jealous there ? :) 

Well don't you think today's beautiful quote and what is written there about risk   ( go out of one's depth ) being the 
 synonym for the word risk ,  hints in some direction ? 

What's important to you ?  just to bother about superficial nature of things about people  or trying to see the content that is written by the person ?  

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #16
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

pavani rao wrote:
Unless one takes risks or one goes deep out of one's depths there will be no way of finding out the reality of things .

It's good to have people like you here Ruth .

Thank you, Pavani. I've enjoyed corresponding with you here, too.

pavani rao wrote:
on the fringes of Hope the whole world exists ' ...

Life is bleak for so many in this world. I think hope keeps them alive, despite the horrors of daily war and uncertainty.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #17
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

Dean R. Smith wrote:
and Ruth gave a bullshit excuse for her Personal Profile lie.

Dean,
That's all you're going to get from my profile.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #18
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5800 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Bass wrote:
For me, hope represents the possibility that an outcome of my present actions will benefit me at a later date. Actions to care for my health, my property, my earning capcity will yeild benefit when I am 80. Without hope, I'd not be motivated to take the actions, including risks, I take today.

Ruth everyone thinks this way, unfortunately. Don't you see this is what leads to war when a country full of people who feel the way you do demands security and protection from our "enemies" so we can go on living our comfortable lives with our little pieces of security that we have hacked out in our daily living?

On another thread you talk about peace in the abstract, as a theory. It's not about finding peace or bringing about peace, which is just a word that represents a concept to you, an image. When you understand what the root cause of war is then you will understand peace. When you understand how your desire for security leads to war then you will understand what it means to have peace. You may be against war philosophically but your, my, eveyone's cultural conditioning as expressed in our way of living is the cause of war. Greed for the things we have been told we should have and the desire for more is the cause of war.

This is what it means when K says you are the world. The world has conditioned you to think that you have to live the way you have described in your paragraph above. And when you live that way then you are re-enforcing the way the world is. You, like everyone else, are seeking security, comfort, more wealth perhaps as a hedge against illness or job loss. This is what countries do too. Seek security by producing arms, all manner of weapons of mass destruction to "secure" our country, our citizens, our religion, our family against "them". Against other countries.

Hope is an illusion. Hope is desire. A desire for more security, more money, better health in the future. When you have hope you are focused on the future and not aware of what you are now. Hope projects your desire, greed, dreams that you manufacture now into the future. Change can only come in the present not in the future.

If you are going to cherry pick what K says to suit your convenience why bother to be here at all?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 25 Feb 2013.

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5800 posts in this forum Offline

pavani rao wrote:
It's good to have people like you here Ruth .

Why because you agree with her? Maybe you're both confused and just re-enforcing each other's confused view of the world?

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #20
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
If you are going to cherry pick what K says to suit your convenience why bother to be here at all?

Jack,
I resonate with your perspectives. They sound true. A lot of what K said sounds true to me, but not all. I'm still learning, that's why I'm here. But, I can't accept anything on blind faith--I really must find out for myself.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

This post was last updated by Ruth Bass Mon, 25 Feb 2013.

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #21
Thumb_mandala6 Ruth Bass United States 121 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Why because you agree with her? Maybe you're both confused and just re-enforcing each other's confused view of the world?

Jack, you may not realize this, but both Pavani and I speak from the heart. I don't think you feel her kindness and gentle ways in her writing? I appreciate her being here.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #22
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1930 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Bass wrote:
For me, hope represents the possibility that an outcome of my present actions will benefit me at a later date.

Aye - there's the rub.

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #23
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Bass wrote:
but both Pavani and I speak from the heart. I don't think you feel her kindness and gentle ways in her

 Ruth you really made my day with that compliment :) You know what by simply acknowledging each other and acting normal , in the  sense  with all human emotions and simple norms of behavior ... and acting ,  listening with heart ... Don't you think this forum and in our lives we all need that refreshing change ! ....  I think we all had enough of intellectualization of the teaching ... It's time we  move on from Polemics and semantics to different direction ...
( let me add like Katy used to do , no answer required :) 

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #24
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1930 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Don't you see this is what leads to war when a country full of people who feel the way you do demands security and protection from our "enemies" so we can go on living our comfortable lives with our little pieces of security that we have hacked out in our daily living?

On another thread you talk about peace in the abstract, as a theory. It's not about finding peace or bringing about peace, which is just a word that represents a concept to you, an image. When you understand what the root cause of war is then you will understand peace. When you understand how your desire for security leads to war then you will understand what it means to have peace. You may be against war philosophically but your, my, eveyone's cultural conditioning as expressed in our way of living is the cause of war. Greed for the things we have been told we should have and the desire for more is the cause of war.

This is what it means when K says you are the world. The world has conditioned you to think that you have to live the way you have described in your paragraph above. And when you live that way then you are re-enforcing the way the world is. You, like everyone else, are seeking security, comfort, more wealth perhaps as a hedge against illness or job loss. This is what countries do too. Seek security by producing arms, all manner of weapons of mass destruction to "secure" our country, our citizens, our religion, our family against "them". Against other countries.

Hope is an illusion. Hope is desire. A desire for more security, more money, better health in the future. When you have hope you are focused on the future and not aware of what you are now. Hope projects your desire, greed, dreams that you manufacture now into the future. Change can only come in the present not in the future.

Excellent posting Jack. Thank you for being so clear.

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #25
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
Hope is an illusion. Hope is desire. A desire for more security, more money, better health in the future. When you have hope you are focused on the future and not aware of what you are now. Hope projects your desire, greed, dreams that you manufacture now into the future. Change can only come in the present not in the future.

Bingo..thank you Jack!:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #26
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ruth Bass wrote:
Dean,
That's all you're going to get from my profile.

Don't compound your lies with nonsensical bullshit.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #27
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pavani rao wrote:
What's important to you ? just to bother about superficial nature of things about people or trying to see the content that is written by the person ?

Content, of course. You and Ruth are superficial.

Someone's compliment making your day? Do you guys lie from the heart? :)

Perhaps, the two of you try to bullshit others, because you bullshit yourselves.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #28
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5800 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth, you do understand that what I wrote in Post #18 applies to me and everyone else on here as much as it does to you don't you? As for Pavani don't read anything into my comments about her comment. I haven't formed an image about her one way or the other. I've never met her, don't know her.

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #29
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Ruth Bass wrote:
For me, hope represents the possibility that an outcome of my present actions will benefit me at a later date. Actions to care for my health, my property, my earning capcity will yeild benefit when I am 80. Without hope, I'd not be motivated to take the actions, including risks, I take today.

J.C.>>
Well put Ruth.It couldn't be said any clearer.

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Mon, 25 Feb 2013 #30
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

pavani rao wrote:
Unless one takes risks or one goes deep out of one's depths there will be no way of finding out the reality of things .

J.C.>>
Hi Pavi. This I think is the best quote of the month.
Thankfully,yourself,Ruth and some others enjoy fair exchange,
even if there may be disagreement at times.The absence of of
demeaning and abusive language is delightful, even if we
sometimes poke fun at each other.

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