Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Just be friends


Displaying all 28 posts
Page 1 of 1
Tue, 02 Apr 2013 #1
Thumb_295902_10150361346929121_667049120_8087939_521721644_n Angel Miolan Dominican Republic 179 posts in this forum Offline

What is needed to join together in one dialogue?

lobo de la estepa

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 02 Apr 2013 #2
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

Angel Miolan wrote:
What is needed to join together in one dialogue?

The first-hand understanding of why we are always living in conflict and confrontation?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 02 Apr 2013 #3
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Satya Prakash wrote:
The first-hand understanding of why we are always living in conflict and confrontation?

Do you include yourself in "we"? Do you feel you have this "first-hand understanding" of which you speak? If your answer is Yes, are you here to play the role of teacher? If your answer is No, why don't you pose questions instead of making authoritative statements?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 02 Apr 2013 #4
Thumb_forum_koala Victor Blackbird Australia 97 posts in this forum Offline

Satya Prakash wrote:
The first-hand understanding of why we are always living in conflict and confrontation?

What do you think, lies this first-hand understanding in the field of human's ability of comprehension or should people look for it outside of their thought-dimension?

In other words, can we just simply see the fact that we are always in conflict, always in confrontation with each other; that we are using all the possible warfare including all sorts of lie and hypocrisy to kill, to repress each other, to defeat each other to be always the first in any success, to have best profits in business to have best places in society etc.? Or we have first to find out that ultimate truth, K. is talking about, beyond our limits of mind, beyond the thought dimension?

So can we just see all the mischiefs going on in human society and still remain in our ordinary condition of thinking?

nosce te ipsum

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 02 Apr 2013 #5
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Angel Miolan wrote:
What is needed to join together in one dialogue?

j Something to talk about and a 'joint'.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #6
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

Arthur Landon wrote:
why don't you pose questions instead of making authoritative statements?

Satya Prakash wrote:
The first-hand understanding of why we are always living in conflict and confrontation?

Arthur Landon wrote:
Do you include yourself in "we"? Do you feel you have this "first-hand understanding" of which you speak? If your answer is Yes, are you here to play the role of teacher? If your answer is No, why don't you pose questions instead of making authoritative statements?

What is your motive in asking all these questions?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #7
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

Victor Blackbird wrote:
In other words, can we just simply see the fact that we are always in conflict, always in confrontation with each other; that we are using all the possible warfare including all sorts of lie and hypocrisy to kill, to repress each other, to defeat each other to be always the first in any success, to have best profits in business to have best places in society etc.?

"Seeing" the above kind of facts without watching and understanding one's own reactions has no meaning or value.

Victor Blackbird wrote:
Or we have first to find out that ultimate truth, K. is talking about, beyond our limits of mind, beyond the thought dimension?

Any effort in this directin would be an escape from "seeing" mentioned above.

Victor Blackbird wrote:
So can we just see all the mischiefs going on in human society and still remain in our ordinary condition of thinking?

Ordinarily, one reacts to whatever is going on in the society inwardly and such reactions form the basis of his actions. There is no sense of freedom in such actions as our past is directing and controlling the reactions. Unless one has first-hand understanding of this fixed and conditioned way of functioning of one's own mind, there can come no fundamental change in one's behaviour and conduct.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #8
Thumb_forum_koala Victor Blackbird Australia 97 posts in this forum Offline

Satya Prakash wrote:
"Seeing" the above kind of facts without watching and understanding one's own reactions has no meaning or value.

When I say 'seeing' I don't mean watching them like a Sphinx-statue. Watching and understanding that's exactly what I mean.

So can we simply see them or not?

Satya Prakash wrote:
Any effort in this directin would be an escape from "seeing" mentioned above.

Now you are using the word 'seeing' exactly in my way as understanding.

Anyway yes, trying to get the ultimate truth directly by effort is impossible.

But yet, what is the answer; whatever way or no-way, effort or not, do we have to get that truth before we are able to see those facts?

Satya Prakash wrote:
Ordinarily, one reacts to whatever is going on in the society inwardly and such reactions form the basis of his actions. There is no sense of freedom in such actions as our past is directing and controlling the reactions. Unless one has first-hand understanding of this fixed and conditioned way of functioning of one's own mind, there can come no fundamental change in one's behaviour and conduct.

Well, it might be OK, but it's still not what I'm asking.
Again, my question is can we just see and understand those facts in society prior to fundamental changes in ourself?

And bdw. what exactly do you mean under the 'fundamental changes'?

nosce te ipsum

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #9
Thumb_forum_koala Victor Blackbird Australia 97 posts in this forum Offline

Angel Miolan wrote:

What is needed to join together in one dialogue?

john Campbell wrote:
j Something to talk about and a 'joint'.

Well, yes. But the title of the tread is 'to be friends' not just 'how to organize a chat-room'.

nosce te ipsum

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #10
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

Victor Blackbird wrote:
But yet, what is the answer; whatever way or no-way, effort or not, do we have to get that truth before we are able to see those facts?

No, one can't get to truth by by-passing the understanding of what society actually is.

Victor Blackbird wrote:
Again, my question is can we just see and understand those facts in society prior to fundamental changes in ourself?

The basic understanding would be of why we don't see and understand the conflict and contradiction ridden structure of the self/society. As K had said, one has to start near to go far.

Victor Blackbird wrote:
And bdw. what exactly do you mean under the 'fundamental changes'?

Conduct and behaviour based, not on past accumulations, but on perception/seeing.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #11
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Victor Blackbird wrote:
Again, my question is can we just see and understand those facts in society prior to fundamental changes in ourself?

Seeing and fundamental change occur together.There is no prior or after in this.

Seeing is action.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #12
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Victor Blackbird wrote:
Well, yes. But

j Something wrong with the 'yabut'
Lighten up.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #13
Thumb_295902_10150361346929121_667049120_8087939_521721644_n Angel Miolan Dominican Republic 179 posts in this forum Offline

Satya Prakash wrote:
The first-hand understanding of why we are always living in conflict and confrontation?

Angel: Yes, Satya, I agree with your proposition. I feel if we can explore our mind in any subject and interchange with the others friends, be aware of our reactions and how sometimes they mix together with our answers’, and discarding its, we can have more fluid and constructive dialogues that can contribute to our self-knowledge.(Please excuse my english language limitations).

lobo de la estepa

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #14
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Satya Prakash wrote:
What is your motive in asking all these questions?

Do I really need to explain? The reader needs to know whether you include yourself in "we" because your question implies that you don't, making your question disingenuous and you, hypocritical.

This post was last updated by Arthur Landon (account deleted) Wed, 03 Apr 2013.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #15
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Victor Blackbird wrote:
Anyway yes, trying to get the ultimate truth directly by effort is impossible.

How would you know whether you've got "the ultimate truth" or not? Do you believe there is such a thing as the ultimate truth?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #16
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Satya Prakash wrote:
The basic understanding would be of why we don't see and understand the conflict and contradiction ridden structure of the self/society.

Do you think you do "see and understand the conflict and contradiction ridden structure of the self/society"?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #17
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

Arthur Landon wrote:
The reader needs to know whether you include yourself in "we" because your question implies that you don't, making your question disingenuous and you, hypocritical.

If you had already formed this opinion, then why did you ask all those questions in your post #3?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #18
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

Arthur Landon wrote:
Do you think you do "see and understand the conflict and contradiction ridden structure of the self/society"?

What you think about this is your reality that will not change by my reply.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #19
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

Angel Miolan wrote:
I feel if we can explore our mind in any subject...

Do you feel that having any motive (what one is seeking out of discusson) will have any bearing on exploration or the quality of exchanges, Angel?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 03 Apr 2013 #20
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Satya Prakash wrote:
What you think about this is your reality that will not change by my reply.

Don't assume that others are as intransigent as you.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 04 Apr 2013 #21
Thumb_forum_koala Victor Blackbird Australia 97 posts in this forum Offline

Arthur Landon wrote:
How would you know whether you've got "the ultimate truth" or not? Do you believe there is such a thing as the ultimate truth?

As for me, there is nothing I believe in concerning the ultimate truth.

...but if you got it you would never confuse it with something else like holy visions, voices, lucid dreams, astral flying and all that stuff.

So, no worries to be mistaken; just find out.

nosce te ipsum

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 04 Apr 2013 #22
Thumb_forum_koala Victor Blackbird Australia 97 posts in this forum Offline

john Campbell wrote:
Victor Blackbird wrote:

Well, yes. But
j Something wrong with the 'yabut'
Lighten up.

thanks, mate

same to you

nosce te ipsum

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 04 Apr 2013 #23
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Victor Blackbird wrote:
...but if you got it you would never confuse it with something else like holy visions, voices, lucid dreams, astral flying and all that stuff.

So, no worries to be mistaken; just find out.

I have found out, Victor, and I've come to realize that "all that stuff" is nonsense, so there you have it, and here we are. I am a brain and I shall cease to exist. Are you not the same?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 04 Apr 2013 #24
Thumb_forum_koala Victor Blackbird Australia 97 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
Seeing and fundamental change occur together.There is no prior or after in this.

Seeing is action.

Well, not that I disagree with what you are saying in your messages, but when you say 'seeing' (we've agreed it's synonym for understanding), so you mean seeing what?
When e.g. I see your current message on my screen and understand you are right in saying something, am I undergoing the 'fundamental change' already?

nosce te ipsum

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 04 Apr 2013 #25
Thumb_forum_koala Victor Blackbird Australia 97 posts in this forum Offline

Arthur Landon wrote:
I am a brain and I shall cease to exist

Well, I use to put it maybe differently. The 'ceasing to exist' is a result -- we cannot get it directly cause it would demand some effort.

I say in this case: I have to understand the whole structure of myself so as it is.
...and understanding the wrong so as it is, is the ceasing of illusions and seeing the truth.
Something like that; the rest is not exactly a verbal matter to explain, right?

nosce te ipsum

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 04 Apr 2013 #26
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Victor Blackbird wrote:
I have to understand the whole structure of myself so as it is.
...and understanding the wrong so as it is, is the ceasing of illusions and seeing the truth.
Something like that; the rest is not exactly a verbal matter to explain, right?

You don't "have to" do anything, Victor. Do what you will because you will cease to exist. If you think you won't perish, perish the thought.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 05 Apr 2013 #27
Thumb_forum_koala Victor Blackbird Australia 97 posts in this forum Offline

Arthur Landon wrote:
You don't "have to" do anything, Victor.

I see two aspects in approach to that 'have to'.

The first one implies compulsory doing, effort, lack of freedom -- driving myself up to to something.

The second one is a deep inner understanding of necessity to do something. If we understand this necessity we are doing it in freedom, without any compulsion.

If we really are ripe enough to understand the necessity of self-knowledge -- we just will do it. If we are not -- we will just discuss about it beating around the bush.

Arthur Landon wrote:
Do what you will because you will cease to exist.

My personal will is not exactly a will to cease to exist. That sort of will would be maintaining the existence always further up.

My genuine will is to see the nature of my own will itself.
I don't really know if I'm making myself clear enough to the readers but I see a misunderstanding of this position as most dangerous stumbling block in doing meditation.

nosce te ipsum

This post was last updated by Victor Blackbird Sat, 06 Apr 2013.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #28
Thumb_295902_10150361346929121_667049120_8087939_521721644_n Angel Miolan Dominican Republic 179 posts in this forum Offline

Satya Prakash wrote:
Do you feel that having any motive (what one is seeking out of discusson) will have any bearing on exploration or the quality of exchanges, Angel?

We have to discard any motive or centered strong desire to obtain any type of results in our exchanges in exploration of the mind. You know the ego and the thought are part of the field of the conditioned mind we need to explore. But ones we understand the need to perceive and put aside any reactions of the pass/future in the moment they occur is the only way for the mind to be open and sensitive to intelligent perception/exploration /observation, it just happens. I fell the exchanges are going to be possible of sustain and that is something very important.

lobo de la estepa

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying all 28 posts
Page 1 of 1
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)