Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Difference between being absorbed and attention?


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Wed, 15 May 2013 #1
Thumb_mandelbrot Timothy Orr Canada 9 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you for looking.

I have been wondering what is happening when one is so totally absorbed with thoughts or an idea. I noticed it myself this morning as I was showering. I was thinking deeply about something and then suddenly awakened from that and realized that during that brief time, the self; the sense of "me" was completely absent. Then I snapped out of it and realized what had happened. My sense of self returned and I realized I had been completely lost/absent in my thoughts. The self seemed to be gone. There was only the thoughts. This has been described as being "in the zone" or "caught in the 'flow'of the moment. I would much appreciate your thoughts on how these sorts of moments fit in with K's teachings.

Thank you so much!
Tim

So, awareness is a state of choiceless attention. And without this awareness, this choiceless attention, to talk about what is beyond, what is the timeless, and so on, has no meaning whatsoever.

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Wed, 15 May 2013 #2
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Timothy Orr wrote:
I was thinking deeply about something and then suddenly awakened from that and realized that during that brief time, the self; the sense of "me" was completely absent.

To think deeply, to be lost in thought, is to be absorbed in thinking and thought. When totally absorbed in this way, there is no sense of a separate thinker, i.e., the self, the "me."

The self, the "me," appears with the awareness that you have been engaged in some activity. You say to yourself, "I did this or that," or "I am doing this or that." The truth of the matter is that there is no "I" (or "self," or "me") separate from the action itself. In the moment of action, there is only the action.

Is it a good thing to be absorbed, to be totally committed, to anything? I would say that it is not, since awareness and understanding are stifled by commitment and absorption.

"In the zone," truly, means an awareness that allows instant action (the awareness is the action) and an understanding that meets all the requirements of the moment. On the other hand, absorption or commitment is thinking and thought, which is the recall of what is known as it applies to the current scene.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Wed, 15 May 2013.

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Wed, 15 May 2013 #3
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Timothy Orr wrote:
I was thinking deeply about something and then suddenly awakened from that and realized that during that brief time, the self; the sense of "me" was completely absent.

This phenomenon is why entertainment is so popular. One gets lost in the show. The selfish self is busy watching tele.

But it is simply escape. Thinking in the shower is the same phenomenon as eating ice cream.

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Wed, 15 May 2013 #4
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
Then eating ice cream in the shower is what?

difficult?

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Wed, 15 May 2013 #5
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
In any case, what is it you are pointing to Randal? What is the monster under the bed we are escaping from with ice cream and showers?

Good question. How would you find the factual true and accurate answer 100% of the time?

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Thu, 16 May 2013 #6
Thumb_stringio G M Norway 81 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
What is the monster under the bed we are escaping from with ice cream and showers? Is there a secret code to understand all of this??

Dear Ariv,

Let me give a puppetji answer:

" Look 'straight' into the eyes of the monster and say, 'Hey, let us party!'"

There is yet another secret code to understand this, my friend 'Satya' has started a thread titled 'How deep are the roots of Self in human psyche", that contains some clues to understand the problem.

This post was last updated by G M (account deleted) Thu, 16 May 2013.

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Thu, 16 May 2013 #7
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 388 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randal patrick wrote:
This phenomenon is why entertainment is so popular. One gets lost in the show. The selfish self is busy watching tele.

But it is simply escape. Thinking in the shower is the same phenomenon as eating ice cream.

very much so. lately i have been trying to take a good hard look at my own escapes in life and i am appalled .... i am sure 99.99999 % of all the things i am inclined to get involved in are escapes, possibly even K!!

Like Dhi has his question mark, i guess i should try and get an avatar with me sitting on a huge capital "E"...

oh, never mind, shitty day today

:-(

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Thu, 16 May 2013 #8
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
Like Dhi has his question mark, i guess i should try and get an avatar with me sitting on a huge capital "E"...

and you got it, almost...

I don't know

This post was last updated by dhirendra singh Thu, 16 May 2013.

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Thu, 16 May 2013 #9
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Timothy Orr wrote:
looking.

as I was showering. I was thinking deeply about something and then suddenly awakened from that and realized that during that brief time, the self; the sense of "me" was completely absent. Then I snapped out of it and realized what had happened. My sense of............
'flow'of the moment

JC> Is it really anything other than drifting with thought,like thinking of a woman you like,or friends you will soon see,a journey?
Flow of the moment? Flow of the shower? A waterfall? Or resting by a babbling brook ,your mind drifting towards the eddy,
that sweet place where everything is at peace for a moment or two. Personally I love the feeling,the mind ,has a mind of its own.

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Thu, 16 May 2013 #10
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
i am sure 99.99999 % of all the things i am inclined to get involved in are escapes, possibly even

You still have 00.00001% of hope left.
Remember the mustard seed. :-)

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Thu, 16 May 2013 #11
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

Timothy Orr wrote:
I was thinking deeply about something and then suddenly awakened from that and realized that during that brief time, the self; the sense of "me" was completely absent.

The soil/background in/on which those 'deep' thoughts were arising is "me". Your being unconscious of thoughts' movement does not mean that self was absent.

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Thu, 16 May 2013 #12
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

randal patrick wrote:
How would you find the factual true and accurate answer 100% of the time?

You can not find the answer. When the fact itself acts on you, that action is intelligent and true. As far as 'accuracy' is concerned, who or what decides it?

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Thu, 16 May 2013 #13
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

john Campbell wrote:
Personally I love the feeling,...

This is universal.:)

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Fri, 17 May 2013 #14
Thumb_mandelbrot Timothy Orr Canada 9 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you so much for your responses...I'm seeing more clearly that the apparent absence of self during the shower moment was really no different than a child being absorbed with a new toy (K's words)...shortly after, if the toy breaks or something else comes along, the sense of self abruptly returns and along with it the separation and division between the thinker and the thought. Something like that eh/huh?

So, awareness is a state of choiceless attention. And without this awareness, this choiceless attention, to talk about what is beyond, what is the timeless, and so on, has no meaning whatsoever.

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Fri, 17 May 2013 #15
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5668 posts in this forum Offline

john Campbell wrote:
You still have 00.00001% of hope left.

You seem to be saying that like it's something to hold on to. Hope is death. It is another escape.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 17 May 2013.

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Fri, 17 May 2013 #16
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5668 posts in this forum Offline

randal patrick wrote:
Arivalagan S wrote:
In any case, what is it you are pointing to Randal? What is the monster under the bed we are escaping from with ice cream and showers?

Good question. How would you find the factual true and accurate answer 100% of the time?

Good question. No answer at all.

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Fri, 17 May 2013 #17
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Hope is death

ohn Campbell wrote:
You still have 00.00001% of hope left.

pine>>You seem to be saying that like it's something to hold on to. Hope is death. It is another escape

JC>>>Wrong>>> . Hopelessness is death.No spark.No flame.Nothing.

Some would snuff the candle's flame on a child’s first birthday.

Thus,leaving the child in darkness.

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Fri, 17 May 2013 #18
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Timothy Orr wrote:
what is happening when one is so totally absorbed with thoughts or an idea

Escaping the fear of 'alone'?

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Fri, 17 May 2013 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5668 posts in this forum Offline

john Campbell wrote:
JC>>>Wrong>>> . Hopelessness is death.No spark.No flame.Nothing.

You're obviously confused. Hope is the future. The present is life, is living. The past is dead and the past modified in the present and projected ahead is the future. Are you interested in anything K pointed out or would you rather just stick to your own ideas because it's more comfortable?

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Fri, 17 May 2013 #20
Thumb_mandelbrot Timothy Orr Canada 9 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
what does it mean, the separation of the thought and the thinker. I have read Krishnamurti talk of this but cannot get it. The thought is not existing on its own so why deny the thinker?

"Thought" is simply the chattering of the mind...it is what the mind, the brain does. Of course we need thoughts in order to function in the world, to brush our teeth, to go to work, etc., or we would be good for nothing. The separation to which I'm referring is when one identifies with the thought, claims it as ones own....as "me"..."I thought this, I am thinking that" and so on. There is the separation, at the moment of identification, and that generates the illusion of being separate from our thought. Who is doing the thinking? Better, what is doing the thinking; that is closer. But the fact is, there is only thinking! The thinker, our conception of being a separate "I", "Me" apart from THE thoughts is the illusion.

Mix the ingredients for a cake...flour, water, salt etc...all separate ingredients when combined form the cake. The cake is the result of the ingredients, but the fact is, it is a combination of the parts, the fragments that make it. Our various thoughts in the same way give rise to our sense of identity (of mistaken identity to be more precise), of being a thing that is separate from our thoughts, but in reality, the fact is, we are not. Thought + thought + thought = me, my sense of being separate from the thoughts, deluding me into thinking that "I" thought them. However, subtract the thoughts and what do you have left? Nothing, only pure awareness, a singular clarity of mind. That is what K means...I "think"!...LOL

So, awareness is a state of choiceless attention. And without this awareness, this choiceless attention, to talk about what is beyond, what is the timeless, and so on, has no meaning whatsoever.

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Fri, 17 May 2013 #21
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
Randal I am still asking why you say that entertainment is escape.

The human mind seems unable to sit alone quietly without seeking some kind of distraction. And so, it seeks distraction in all sorts of ways. it has gotten very clever and sophisticated over the centuries in it's invented distractions. Entertainment, for example. religion, monogamous interpresonal attachment based relationship are some others. isn't this quiet obvious to everyone?

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Fri, 17 May 2013 #22
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
Unless hope means 'reasonable expectation.'

Very interesting concept. Who/what decides what is reasonable and what is unreasonable? is it the same entity that decides it is unreasonable to eat ice cream in the shower? is there some universal code to figure stuff like that out?

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Sat, 18 May 2013 #23
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5668 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
"Hope is death" "Hopelessness is death"

Hope and hopelessness, same coin, different sides.

I don't agree with that. Don't complicate it. I'll stick with what I wrote about hope.

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Sat, 18 May 2013 #24
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
confused

JC> Time is contiguous.
The present is unattainable.
Some consider ‘now ‘as present.
So Now ,let’s hope,the past has prepared you,
Now, that you are, hopefully, entering the future.

‘K’, said something like,don’t parrot him, think
for yourself,well something like that. ‘K’ is not a
God to me,I read him with some interest. I,m
quite comfortable in my own skin.

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Sat, 18 May 2013 #25
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
When you want 'alone' be alone, when you want people, find people.

the human mind is so isolated within it's own image making process, that it is lonely in a crowd and in the shower. Alone and lonely. And as a reaction, it desperately seeks "companionship/relationship/comfort" by surrounding itself with other alone human minds, all seeking freedom from their lonely isolation. This is the nature of the human experience. And so in light of this, what sense does your statement make? Reasonable?

This post was last updated by randal patrick (account deleted) Sat, 18 May 2013.

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Sat, 18 May 2013 #26
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5668 posts in this forum Offline

john Campbell wrote:
JC> Time is contiguous.
The present is unattainable.
Some consider ‘now ‘as present.
So Now ,let’s hope,the past has prepared you,
Now, that you are, hopefully, entering the future.

What is left to say to someone who writes this kind of complete nonsense. What are you doing here? You not only have no interest in K you apparently don't have a clue as to what he pointed out. And further discussion with you would be pointless, obviously. Sorry

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 18 May 2013.

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Sat, 18 May 2013 #27
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:

"Escaping the fear of 'alone'?"

When you want 'alone' be alone, when you want people, find people. Where is fear? What is this escape? In the shower is there fear of being alone? Do you eat an ice cream out of fear of 'alone?'

"Escaping the fear of 'alone'?" was in reply to "what is happening when one is so totally absorbed with thoughts or an idea" Whether showering or eating ice cream there's not just showering or eating when there's thinking about stuff. What comfort does the habit of thinking about stuff provide that when showering or eating it continues?

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Sat, 18 May 2013 #28
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randal patrick wrote:
he human mind is so isolated within it's own image making process, that it is lonely in a crowd and in the shower. Alone and lonely. And as a reaction, it desperately seeks "companionship/relationship/comfort" by surrounding itself with other alone human minds, all seeking freedom from their lonely isolation.

Comforted by thought, as though something is there, as though not alone.

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Sat, 18 May 2013 #29
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
What

What is , What are , to what ...wawawa....

JC> Hmm..grinding teeth again?Careful,don’t blow a tire.
If thinking gives you a headache ,well that’s understandable,
Its not for everyone.
Seems that you and your buddies have left orbit,
Once you have left,
There is no coming back.

But wait a minute,you said,
Hope is death,and then said,
Hope is the future,so then,
Maybe you will return,
Like Jesus

Ah,the Sun's out,
click.
Zooooooooooooom

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Sat, 18 May 2013 #30
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5668 posts in this forum Offline

john Campbell wrote:
What is , What are , to what ...wawawa....

Little early to be drinking there isn't John? But with some I guess they don't look at the clock before they pull the cork. On another note, why don't you try reading what K had to point out? Who knows you might find it interesting.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 18 May 2013.

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