Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Thu, 15 May 2014 #1
Thumb_stringio mike christani United States 2234 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

It's spring here, the leaves are sprouting, the nights are mild and the days are warming. All this from what was snow cover and below freezing temperatures, bare trees, just a couple months ago...the cycle of every year.

Everything in the universe is in order, except man. Why are we so disconnected from the world? And is it getting worse?

These addictive computers, iphones, tablets...synthetic medicines/healing, tv, radio...Are we becoming even more out of touch with the fundaments of our existence, through technology, advancements, trust in that what we're developing is good for man?

Even from the suburbs where I live one can only see a handful of stars, Orion, the dipper, but not much else. I don't know most of the plants in the woods here.

The world runs on its endless cycle of change, fruition, harvest and rest, and we remain static, stuck in our little selves. Why?

This post was last updated by mike christani (account deleted) Thu, 15 May 2014.

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Thu, 15 May 2014 #2
Thumb_stringio Joe Loveys Canada 280 posts in this forum Offline

It's a good question there Mike. I guess we have the problem of self-importance, where just about everybody is totally concerned with himself. Sometimes I think my little life and actions matter more than they do, or that other people care much about anything that doesn't affect them directly. Seems to me most people are self-absorbed nearly all the time.

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Thu, 15 May 2014 #3
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Joe Loveys wrote:
Seems to me most people are self-absorbed nearly all the time.

Some/most of these discussion show that very clearly.

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #4
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Mike Christani Wrote : Everything in the universe is in order, except man. Why are we so disconnected from the world? And is it getting worse?

Hi Mike

That post of yours reminds me similar thoughts I had a couple of days back . There is this small black bird which looks slightly bigger in size than that of a home ' sparrow ' ( I wonder if you are all familiar with home sparrows ) found a small cozy place in the midst of the twigs of a small plant before our house and within no time made such a tiny , very neat looking nest with dry leaves and grass ..... the very sight of which made me wonder how well ' nature ' prepares us all .... Whether it is birds or animals or smallest insects like red ants . We all are endowed with certain life preserving , saving skills , talents and as you wrote everything in the Universe looks in perfect order .

Incidentally your words also remind me of what my grand father used to say looking at the advancements in technology field ( very limited looking in those days especially in our country ) that ' those were our good olden days when folks used to care for each other and now it's no more the case with all this modernity ' etc ....... ( just can't imagine how would he react looking at so much distorted times of ours ! ) but he also used to share his strong beliefs that everything in the Universe happens as per ' Time ' ... Things need to attain to a certain amount of ' maturity ' ' ripeness ' then only they fall off and further change is possible . Well they may not sound very logical to minds used to seeing everything in a rational way , though that statement never appealed to me those days but now I feel retrospectively there certainly is an element of truth in it .

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #5
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

mike christani wrote:
Everything in the universe is in order, except man. Why are we so disconnected from the world?

The reason is very simple Mike: conditioned thought ... ie. thought corrupted by a self ...

As long as we live in the illusion of a separate self, disorder will persist ... because self itself separates man from the rest of the world, creating endless conflicts between 'what is' and 'what should be' ...

K gave us the key (his "secret"):

"I don't mind what happens"

... which means creating no resistance to 'what is' ... no conflict at all ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #6
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

pavani rao wrote:
Things need to attain to a certain amount of ' maturity ' ' ripeness ' then only they fall off and further change is possible .

Right, when humans will be tired of suffering, change will happen ... until then ... 'business as usual' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #7
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
The reason is very simple Mike: conditioned thought ... ie. thought corrupted by a self . . .

Is there any thinking that is not of the self, conditioned to the self?

max

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #8
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:
The reason is very simple Mike: conditioned thought ... ie. thought corrupted by a self . . .

Is there any thinking that is not of the self, conditioned to the self?

Yes. Don't throw the baby away with the bath water ... practical thought is not corrupted by a self ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #9
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Jean,

As an example of practical thought, let's take pounding a nail in building a cupboard.

We'll say the reason for the cupboard is to hold dishes. Without the cupboard the dishes will be stacked on the table or placed in boxes or put some other place. We prefer to have the dishes in a cupboard. We have made a choice.

It is not the mechanically functioning body/brain, per se, that feels the need for choice. It is the brain, through its psychological "I,", the "self," that chooses.

The self is behind the entire cupboard-making project!

max

This post was last updated by max greene Fri, 16 May 2014.

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #10
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
We'll say the reason for the cupboard is to hold dishes. Without the cupboard the dishes will be stacked on the table or placed in boxes or put some other place. We prefer to have the dishes in a cupboard. We have made a choice.

Making the cupboard does not necessarily come out of a personal choice or intention ... it can have been asked by someone else, eg. your wife or a client ...

I agree that there is a problem when there is an intentional action (which necessarily implies a self) ... this is why it is recommended (eg. in Zen teachings) to act in the present moment and not to attach yourself to the (future) results of your action ... this is called non-intentional action, in which practical thought might operate freely, without creating an 'identity' (self) ... and when you are fully dedicated to the action as it happens in the now, there is no self, no time implied, just full attention in 'here and now' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #11
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Jean,

Most likely thinking cannot be entirely done away with, and as I see it, there will always be a "self" involved with thinking. However, there can be an awareness of thinking.

We can be aware of our thinking and we must be aware of our thinking. If we are not, we will have the chaos of a world dominated by thinking and psychological selves -- selves that are zombies in effect, constructs put in motion by mechanical brains.

Wait a minute. This is exactly what we do have.

max

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #12
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
The self is behind the entire cupboard-making project!

What if I don't currently have the skill-set to make a cupboard? isn't selfless thought required to aquire the necessary information?

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #13
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Possibly there is just the learning. But if there is motive behind your acquiring a skill-set, then there is thought and the "I."

max

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #14
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
Possibly there is just the learning. But if there is motive behind your acquiring a skill-set, then there is thought and the "I."
max

There is always motive in aquisition mode. But my point referes to the fact that, and I may be mistaken, you seem to have suggested in the past that there is no other thought than conditiond/biased/distorted/self.

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #15
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Making the cupboard does not necessarily come out of a personal choice or intention ... it can have been asked by someone else, eg. your wife or a client ...

Why do you make a fundamental distinction between your/the ego (personal choice) and other manifestations of your ego (wife's-client's personal choice)? The motive/intent in either case is keep the wife happy or profit from a client.

Stuff happens

This post was last updated by randall merryman (account deleted) Fri, 16 May 2014.

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #16
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Randall,

That's the way I see it: there is no thinking that does not have the "I" behind it.

max

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #17
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
there is no thinking that does not have the "I" behind it.

Does this include safeguarding the biological entity? In other words, is the activity of thinking, whose motive/intent is to keep the body safe and healthy, a biased/distored manifestation of "I"?

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Fri, 16 May 2014 #18
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, motive and the "I" are one, no escape for either.

The body's safeguard is awareness and memory. Thinking (motive) invariably slows response time and is always after the fact.

Here's the sequence: Stimulus, awareness, thinking, reaction based on thought. Or this sequence: stimulus, awareness, action based on awareness. With the latter, one step is omitted. Faster! The animal lives to fight another day.

max

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Sat, 17 May 2014 #19
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
Here's the sequence: Stimulus, awareness, thinking, reaction based on thought. Or this sequence: stimulus, awareness, action based on awareness. With the latter, one step is omitted. Faster! The animal lives to fight another day.

Is this an obvious fact or simply how Max "sees" it?

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Sat, 17 May 2014 #20
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

I see it as a fact.

max

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Sat, 17 May 2014 #21
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
We'll say the reason for the cupboard is to hold dishes. Without the cupboard the dishes will be stacked on the table or placed in boxes or put some other place. We prefer to have the dishes in a cupboard. We have made a choice.

Perhaps there was an insight that it would be easier to get hold of the dish or cup that you need if they were stored a different way....the discovery of something called a cupboard might have come about through thinking, "boy this kitchen is a mess with all this stuff on the floor, and I can't easily find the dish or cup I need. What can we do about it?", and then, out of the blue, an insight....like the discovery of the hammer or nail...or screw and screw driver....the fork, knife, spoon, cup with a handle so you don't get burned holding it, pots and pans, etc. Were those discoveries the result of thought or something else....insight, intelligence? What about inventions and scientific discoveries. A lot of thinking at first, and then from 'out of the blue', insight/discovery.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 17 May 2014.

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Sat, 17 May 2014 #22
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 749 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dear Mike,

A wonderful post, thank you.

"Everything in the universe is in order, except man. "

-Yes. The 'fall from grace' is really the exchange of the order of the universe to the disorder of the mind, of the self. We are here to discover the universe within us, the centerless 'state', the order that is not man-made, not thought-made.

It is only when it is seen that thought (self) cannot but create disorder in its any and every movement, that the universal order, higher order, can come to its place.

Some wonderful words come to mind I once read:

"Life is a dance, let the Universe lead." It is the most beautiful dance ever and no one steps on no one's toes either :-)

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Sat, 17 May 2014 #23
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 749 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

'I guess we have the problem of self-importance, where just about everybody is totally concerned with himself. Sometimes I think my little life and actions matter more than they do, or that other people care much about anything that doesn't affect them directly. Seems to me most people are self-absorbed nearly all the time.'

mina: Yes, that is when the centerless universe which is really within us in no separation from anything, is replaced with thought which always is composed of a center (me) and what revolves round it (my life, my affairs, my problems etc). An odd structure indeed!

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Sat, 17 May 2014 #24
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:
Making the cupboard does not necessarily come out of a personal choice or intention ... it can have been asked by someone else, eg. your wife or a client ...

Why do you make a fundamental distinction between your/the ego (personal choice) and other manifestations of your ego (wife's-client's personal choice)? The motive/intent in either case is keep the wife happy or profit from a client.

It depends of your state of mind ... when you do things without an expectation of a 'return' or a 'personal' interest, then it is pure 'gift' and there is no ego in this action ... the action remains totally 'non-intentional' ... no time created ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 17 May 2014 #25
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
It depends of your state of mind ... when you do things without an expectation of a 'return' or a 'personal' interest, then it is pure 'gift' and there is no ego in this action ... the action remains totally 'non-intentional' ... no time created ...

Hmmm.....well, it doesn't appear to be a violation of any of the forum guidelines, as far as I can tell, but it might create a more serious discussion if you actually addressed the post you highlight/quote.

Stuff happens

This post was last updated by randall merryman (account deleted) Sat, 17 May 2014.

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Sat, 17 May 2014 #26
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:
It depends of your state of mind ... when you do things without an expectation of a 'return' or a 'personal' interest, then it is pure 'gift' and there is no ego in this action ... the action remains totally 'non-intentional' ... no time created ...

Hmmm.....well, it doesn't appear to be a violation of any of the forum guidelines, as far as I can tell, but it might create a more serious discussion if you actually addressed the post you highlight/quote.

Do you mean that a "serious discussion" is an 'intentional action' ? ... creating some expectation of a result ? ... some kind of 'should be' ?

:-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 17 May 2014 #27
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Do you mean that a "serious discussion" is an 'intentional action' ? ... creating some expectation of a result ? ... some kind of 'should be' ?

I don't mean anything, but we use the mechanism of language as a means of communication. That requires certain principles being upheld in a consistant manner. Unless of course mis-communication/obfuscation is the intent and then your methodology works just fine.

Stuff happens

This post was last updated by randall merryman (account deleted) Sat, 17 May 2014.

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Sat, 17 May 2014 #28
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Unless of course mis-communication/obfuscation is the intent

Why create an "intention" ?

Do you have something to prove ? a 'point' to make ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 17 May 2014 #29
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Do you have something to prove ? a 'point' to make ?

In the area of logic/reason/knowledge/information "something to prove" and "a point to make" appear to be valid actions.

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Sat, 17 May 2014 #30
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why create an "intention" ?

Because I can? ;)

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