Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Is Freedom definitive or Not?


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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #1
Thumb_005 Nicholas Okumu Canada 70 posts in this forum Offline

The basic definitions of freedom include the following:
1. "...the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint"
2."...absence of subjection to foreign domination or despotic government"
3."...the state of not being imprisoned or enslaved"

One may infer from the above definitions of freedom that it has to do with politics and government; colonialism, slavery etc. Neither has it to do with following an authority or human orders; or a choice one makes between this and that!

So what is freedom which JK seems to relate to truth, death, living, order, beauty, perception, intelligence, love and the likes?

...the problems of duality...

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #2
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Nicholas Okumu wrote:
So what is freedom which JK seems to relate to truth, death, living, order, beauty, perception, intelligence, love and the likes?

Freedom happens when there is no resistance to 'what is'.

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5770 posts in this forum Offline

Nicholas Okumu wrote:
So what is freedom which JK seems to relate to truth, death, living, order, beauty, perception, intelligence, love and the likes?

I think K is saying that freedom is being aware of one's conditioning and of how this conditioning is the self. We meet every new event with the past because we filter everything through what we already believe we know. Maybe to be free is to see, to observe without reaction, without conclusion.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #4
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Hello Nicholas,

Where I’m a slave to my desires, compulsions, emotions, and so on, I feel there is no freedom. In such conditions, to me, there can be no love, intelligence, beauty, and so on. I can have spout or proclaim "high" ideals or beliefs, but these cannot bring love etc. about.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #5
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Where I’m a slave to my desires, compulsions, emotions, and so on, I feel there is no freedom.

But you are those desires, compulsion, emotions and so on, how can you be a slave for yourself?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #6
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Voco,

Yes, this is right. There is no separate "you."

max

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #7
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Are you simply opposing me, trying to find fault with me, or are you interested in exploring the question with me?

"Right or wrong", I can only start from my actual understanding. I have to understand myself as I am, not as I think I should be, not as I wish to be, not as my theory dictates, and so on.

Do I really see --- is there the perception --- that I am the content of consciousness? Where there is that perception, that self-understanding, then the question of freedom is transformed, which is not the end of exploration.

Elswhere you say that one ("you") is not an empty place. So we can acknowledge that there is difficulty in expressing "what is". Are we facing off as 2 isolated entities or are we looking together?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #8
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

re: #6

max greene wrote:
Yes, this is right. There is no separate "you."

It has been said 1000 times by practically everyone here. It is meaningless. It cannot be "right" where it is simply repeated authoritatively as the gospel truth or mouthed obediently in conformity.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #9
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette,

Take a look at today's quote. There is no "you" separate from memory and thinking. What "you" think, that is exactly what you are, moment to moment, and nothing more. There is no permanent, continuing you.

With awareness, there is no entity at all.

max

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #10
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Are you simply opposing me, trying to find fault with me, or are you interested in exploring the question with me?

Yes, let's explore. Simply opposing someone has no sense.

Huguette . wrote:
"Right or wrong", I can only start from my actual understanding. I have to understand myself as I am, not as I think I should be, not as I wish to be, not as my theory dictates, and so on.

Right, but how many of us are doing that? Do you understand yourself as you are, or you understand yourself as K tells you are?

Huguette . wrote:
Do I really see --- is there the perception --- that I am the content of consciousness? Where there is that perception, that self-understanding, then the question of freedom is transformed, which is not the end of exploration.

Well, for me there is no consciousness and no content, except if you call all that memory, then I agree with you, otherwise I have to disagree with you that there is consciousness and content which is not a memory. Now, what is "I am", there is no any "I", there is only set of beliefs of who "I am", of what I should do in this life and so on.

Huguette . wrote:
Elswhere you say that one ("you") is not an empty place. So we can acknowledge that there is difficulty in expressing "what is". Are we facing off as 2 isolated entities or are we looking together?

I've meant you as a human being, not "self" or "I" or "ego".

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #11
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

re: #9

Max,

Neither K nor anyone else is an authority to me. What is the point of using quotes (whether of K or posters on this forum) when it bolsters one's arguments and ignoring or contradicting them when they take one away from the beaten path one is following?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #12
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Freedom happens when there is no resistance to 'what is'.

Why are you imprisoned behind six and a half diopters of correction then?

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

This post was last updated by Pavil Davidov (account deleted) Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #13
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Neither K nor anyone else is an authority to me.

Good for you, although don't you carry with you your background and environment, and don't they influence, admittedly or not, your actions?

max

This post was last updated by max greene Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #14
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
"Right or wrong", I can only start from my actual understanding. I have to understand myself as I am, not as I think I should be, not as I wish to be, not as my theory dictates, and so on.

Voco . wrote:Right, but how many of us are doing that? Do you understand yourself as you are, or you understand yourself as K tells you are?

What can I say, Voco? If I say I understand myself as I am, you can easily say it’s not so.

In any case, does it help me at all to know or determine whether or not someone else is free or not? If I see clearly that “I am” a slave to compulsion, fear, desire, anger and time, does pretending that I’m free make me free?

What IS my slavery, what IS “the house” burning within? My anger, my compulsion, my fear, my depression, my boredom? Do you remember moments when you have been filled with hate or rage, when you have wanted to smash someone’s face, hurt him, when the darkness or the boredom within has turned to thoughts of suicide, when fear has paralyzed you, when you “fought” a compulsion and gave in to it, and so on. None of this has ever happened to you? It has to me. Maybe I am wrong to think that the mind of the human being everywhere operates like this. This to me is the house burning within. This to me is slavery.

Then “time” goes by and the brain does what the brain does --- I was observing my thoughts and emotions, observing the contradictions and conflicts, and then the cloud of inattention passes. Other thoughts impinge, other thoughts occupy and distract. I “forget” my suffering and suddenly I’m full of confidence and knowledge --- I know what’s wrong with “the world”, I know what “others” should do. This too is part of the slavery.

So if these contradictions, compulsions and emotions burn within me, it’s of no relevance or importance whatsoever to prove to others what I understand, or to concern myself with what others are doing, with what others understand, with “how many of us are doing this or that” --- only to understand myself, the workings of “my own” intellect. What I say is not intended to "explain" but to look into these questions.

As I see it, the nature of self and time is that desire, fear, anger, etc., are not separate from “me” but constitute “me”. Outside the cerebral circuitry and neural mechanisms, there is no me which can act upon desire, fear, anger, etc. There is no “me” without memory (but there is memory without "me"). The intellect is a part of these processes and mechanisms. And there is more to life than this.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Tue, 15 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #15
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
What IS my slavery, what IS “the house” burning within? My anger, my compulsion, my fear, my depression, my boredom? Do you remember moments when you have been filled with hate or rage, when you have wanted to smash someone’s face, hurt him, when the darkness or the boredom within has turned to thoughts of suicide, when fear has paralyzed you, when you “fought” a compulsion and gave in to it, and so on. None of this has ever happened to you? It has to me. Maybe I am wrong to think that the mind of the human being everywhere operates like this. This to me is the house burning within. This to me is slavery.

Of course I have been through all this too, Huguette. But you see we are making conclusions too quickly. We say that anger, compulsion, fear, depression, boredom is something negative, something bad, something ugly and we must throw it off, get rid of it, or we say we must transcend it. We even accept anger, or depression as if they were things in themselves, but do we actually see what are factors of it? We could say that the major factor is thinking of course, therefore it is important to examine own thinking - beliefs, ideas, prejudices, values and other patterns. And we need to be constantly attentive to our thinking, otherwise we can easily fall into new beliefs, ideas, prejudices, values and patterns.

This post was last updated by Voco . Tue, 15 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #16
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

I don't understand, Voco. Are we not slaves to anger etc.? Are we free to act spontaneously, joyfully, are we able to see beauty? Do we not want to be free --- leaving aside for the moment whether it is "me" that wants it or the totality of the human being? Do we want freedom because anger etc. is bad? Do we enjoy anger, fear, boredom, etc.? Can we love when we are in the throes of all this? I'm not saying anger is bad. If anger is bad, we are all bad, and so what.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Tue, 15 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #17
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Outside the cerebral circuitry and neural mechanisms, there is no me which can act upon desire, fear, anger, etc. There is no “me” without memory (but there is memory without "me").

Right. Well said. The only "you" is the physical body with memory encoded in the cells of the brain. Everything else is simply the brain going through the motions of thinking.

max

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #18
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
We could say that the major factor is thinking of course, therefore it is important to examine own thinking . . . we need to be constantly attentive to our thinking . . .

Indeed we do. Constantly attentive -- and we must watch to see whether we only think that we are being attentive.

It may be that thinking can never be "done away with," but we can be aware of our thinking as it arises. We can be aware of our reactions, and of our reactions to reactions.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Tue, 15 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #19
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

re: #17

There’s more to life than body and thought, isn't there? Otherwise we are organic machines, it seems to me. Beyond the body, the big toe, the liver, the blood, and so on, there’s love, beauty, compassion, understanding. And these cannot be willed or obtained through the efforts of self ... or of the big toe, liver, etc.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Tue, 15 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #20
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, there is more to life than the body, and certainly there is more to life than thought, which is nothing but psychological construction. But this life is awareness, and awareness has no continuing "you," or "me." With awareness, there is only that of which there is awareness.

max

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #21
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I don't understand, Voco. Are we not slaves to anger etc.? Are we free to act spontaneously, joyfully, are we able to see beauty? Do we not want to be free --- leaving aside for the moment whether it is "me" that wants it or the totality of the human being? Do we want freedom because anger etc. is bad? Do we enjoy anger, fear, boredom, etc.? Can we love when we are in the throes of all this? I'm not saying anger is bad. If anger is bad, we are all bad, and so what.

No, it has no sense to think we are slaves to our emotions, we might be slaves to our ideas. All emotions has the same source, either it is anger, loneliness, anxiety, or it is joy. We want to replace anger with joy, we want to replace ugliness with beauty, we divide to good and the bad, but it seems we don't realize that all that has the same source. Just drop this idea of freedom and remain with what is completely, not just by thinking "I will remain with it for a while and I will see what happens then".

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #22
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
There’s more to life than body and thought, isn't there? Otherwise we are organic machines, it seems to me. Beyond the body, the big toe, the liver, the blood, and so on, there’s love, beauty, compassion, understanding. And these cannot be willed or obtained through the efforts of self ... or of the big toe, liver, etc.

What is body? Do you think it is just peace of meat? I don't agree that there is anything like love, beauty, compassion, understanding, intelligence beyond ourselves.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #23
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

When you are angry, striking out in some way because of it, can you --- through effort or will --- stop? In the moment of anger, do you love, can you see beauty, are you acting intelligently?

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #24
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
When you are angry, striking out in some way because of it, can you --- through effort or will --- stop? In the moment of anger, do you love, can you see beauty, are you acting intelligently?

Why should you want to stop anger in a first place? And you put that question, do I love at the moment of anger, but should be I concerned with the love at all if there is anger? If I'm desperate why should I love, why should I see beauty, isn't it more important first to see why I'm desperate?

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #25
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Then can you see "why I'm desparate"?

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #26
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Then can you see "why I'm desparate"?

Of course. That's the whole point, to see what it is. And to see it meditation is necessary.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #27
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

That's not what I meant. I'm really asking you the question, why is it one is desperate.

Because for me, being a slave to anger, compulsion, fear, etc. is a fact, and it is not based on an idea that anger etc. is "bad". When I am ruled by anger or fear or compulsion, I suffer. And attention or meditation alone acts on that fear and suffering.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Tue, 15 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #28
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
That's not what I meant. I'm really asking you the question, why is it one is desperate.

Despair is a state whenever one's own hopes, expectations, seeking is not fulfilled. But will that description tell something?

Huguette . wrote:
Because for me, being a slave to anger, compulsion, fear, etc. is a fact, and it is not based on an idea that anger etc. is "bad". When I am ruled by anger or fear or compulsion, I suffer.

Why do you think you are a slave to anger, to fear, to compulsion? Will thinking so bring about any understanding?

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Thu, 17 Mar 2016 #29
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Then can you see "why I'm desparate"?

Voco wrote:

Of course. That's the whole point, to see what it is. And to see it meditation is necessary.

And again, Voco . wrote:
Despair is a state whenever one's own hopes, expectations, seeking is not fulfilled. But will that description tell something?

First, "Despair is a state whenever one's own hopes, expectations, seeking is not fulfilled."

I wonder what a cracker looks after being soaked three days in water. No, Voco, I wonder if you have ever felt desperation.

And the other, of course, is what this means in meditation, what meditation is, according to you...

mike

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Thu, 17 Mar 2016 #30
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
I wonder what a cracker looks after being soaked three days in water. No, Voco, I wonder if you have ever felt desperation.

First of all what do you mean? I don't understand you. Second, you don't know what another person went thru his life, I don't know what you went thru too. Third, I'm not saying that is the only cause of despair, but generally it is. There can be many other causes. Just as pain can have many causes, so is suffering. Also, despair is not just a product of your own mind, though it very well may be, it can be also conditions in which one is living.

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