Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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QOTD (3/9/16)


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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #1
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day
Public Talk 9th November, 1947 | Ma
Have you ever tried to be alone? When you do, you will feel how extraordinarily difficult it is and how extraordinarily intelligent we must be to be alone, because the mind will not let you be alone. The mind becomes restless, it busies itself with escapes. So what is it that we are doing? We try to fill this extraordinary void with the known. We discover how to be active, how to be social, we know how to study, how to turn on the radio. So we are filling that thing which we do not know, with the things we know. We try to fill that emptiness with various kinds of knowledge, relationship or things. With these three we are trying to fill it. Is that not so? That is our process, that is our existence. Now when you realize what you are doing, do you still think you can fill that void? You have tried every means of filling this void of loneliness. Have you succeeded in filling it? You have tried cinemas and you did not succeed and therefore you go after your gurus, your books or you become socially very active. Have you succeeded in filling it or have you merely covered it up? If you have merely covered it up, it is still there. Therefore, it will come back and if you are able to escape altogether then you are locked up in an asylum or you become very, very dull. That is what is happening in the world.

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #2
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5796 posts in this forum Offline

I wish I had a key board I could use all my fingers on instead of just my thumbs. There is so much one could say about this but only if you have realized this, watched and felt this constant quest to escape. Good topic.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #3
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias (quoting K) wrote:
if you are able to escape altogether then you are locked up in an asylum or you become very, very dull.

i.e. either society has to stagnate (as in the case of asylum) or the individual has to stagnate (as in becoming very very dull), in either case feelings are not to be blamed nor the thoughts, but using those as a means of escaping from relating with the world.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #4
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1471 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
feelings are not to be blamed nor the thoughts, but using those as a means of escaping from relating with the world.

No, no blame but is there a 'someone' there to 'use' feelings and thoughts or do thoughts (and feelings supported by thought) act in a mechanical, conditioned fashion with a 'main objective' of never being 'silent'? (The 'silence' that it can never 'know', and as result, fears?)

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #5
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
is there a 'someone' there to 'use' feelings and thoughts or do thoughts

As K puts it, thinker IS the thought and for the question of precedence, he clarified thought creates the thinker, i.e. the state of thought as a mode of human functioning precedes the creation of thinker.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #6
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
There is so much one could say about this but only if you have realized this, watched and felt this constant quest to escape. Good topic.

Yes, for sure, Jack. This evoked quite a lot for me, too...and there's a lot to say as you've pointed out for a person who has 'realised' this. Some of it echoes/resonates with your former thread titled 'Dying All the Time...'

Also, some of what this led me to think is difficult for me to put into words but I'll have a go...and try not to bore people ! :)

The encounter itself with the 'enormous void' (of nothingness?) - from my own watching/observation - can indeed be frightening in the sense that it is unfamiliar and can be 'stark'...however, when freed from the noise of self and all social artifices and oughts a person can actually prefer the peace of a quiet mind - sorry if this sounds obvious or to be a cliche. How to convey that which a person does not actually talk about or 'share' ordinarily with another (?)

I don't see that this awareness can arise for a person who has not 'been there' - or is not here - as you've already pointed to Jack. (People do fight shy of solitude and maybe at the same time yearn for this - the grass is always greener on the other side of the proverbial fence).

As y'all know already, some people put on a holy robe and beat a retreat living in caves for years in spectacular landscapes such the Himalayan mountains and so on. This is difficult to do in London - in this concrete jungle:) Also, people who do follow a particular religion/path still fill up their minds with the words or 'revelations' of those who have gone before them i.e. the traditional spiritual masters which is not the same thing as just being/seeing in a void as I see this. An orchestrated 'retreat' in that sense can also be an escape can't it?
I am not totally knocking that (ad)venture since as K pointed to in the above QOTD not doing so could lead a person to escape completely into madness (if I understood him rightly).

Staying in/with solitude, just watching and not escaping or filling this up with the things K mentioned has been felt to be a privilege of sorts for his writer. I am still on my guard against 'promoting' this as a rite of passage or something like that though....Solitude/aloneness can bring about the awareness of folly - of one's own folly - and totally shatter the imagery arising from what K termed 'meism' and the danger is seen, too, of the propensity for 'sollipsism'; it is also seen that where there is no you, there is no me perhaps(?)

...Just noticing the rain - both in sound and sight - on its own can be received as a 'gift' for one who has been on the treadmill of life and not free from work and the noise of the me, me, me. Having an affinity with nature is an anchor of sorts, too, isn't it?

'Seers' such as Jung also observed that what is wrong with us all is that we have lost our connection with our (indigenous) nature...

Cheers, Katy

p.s. Hopefully, Jack, this thread won't be 'derailable' and you'll be free to write what this quote from K evoked for you when you are home again with your computer...Salut !

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Mon, 05 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #7
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

The lovesick monk

I shaved my head
I put on robes
I sleep in the corner of a cabin
sixty-five hundred feet up a mountain
It's dismal here
The only thing I don't need
is a comb

Mt. Baldy, 1997
Leonard Cohen

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #8
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1471 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, the 'thinker' is the 'illusory' creation of human thought. Probably many reasons for its creation: continuity, individuality, sense of permanence amidst constant change, etc. but it is a creation that functions in the past, from memory and can never 'be' in the present which is the unknown. Thought can 'remember' a 'past' and project a 'future' all very valuable (invaluable) when operating in the technological realm. Problem is that in the psychological world, 'time' doesn't exist: no future, no past only immediate present. Thought operating there creates an unreality based on 'time', a 'self'-centered reality, a source of division among people.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #9
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Problem is that in the psychological world, 'time' doesn't exist: no future, no past only immediate present. Thought operating there creates an unreality based on 'time', a 'self'-centered reality, a source of division among people.

Yes, for sure, Dan...seeing this with you. Well said !

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #10
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
i.e. either society has to stagnate (as in the case of asylum) or the individual has to stagnate (as in becoming very very dull), in either case feelings are not to be blamed nor the thoughts, but using those as a means of escaping from relating with the world.

Yes, it would appear that people provide a kind of 'asylum' for each other and, hence, the question, asylum from what ?

This question/answer brings back to mind my reading eons ago of Sartre's writing about man being consciousness...conscious of the nothingness of his being

Cheers, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #11
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Thought can 'remember' a 'past' and project a 'future' all very valuable (invaluable) when operating in the technological realm. Problem is that in the psychological world, 'time' doesn't exist: no future, no past only immediate present.

The way technology has solved this problem is by creating algorithm's which are the epitomes of mathematical precision of thought, and which is highly successful in removing the subjective (psychological) biases and use the data from past to predict patterns of operation of a system (which includes human beings) in future . Had a discussion with Paul D recently regarding this with the following two articles as the basis.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/sep/01...

http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-econo...

In the era where algorithm's are designed to decode the pattern of behavior of human beings, the lesson to be learned is that we are more in need of self knowledge than in any other period of time in human history; if self knowing becomes optional for our daily functioning, the system is more ready than before to predict our mode of functioning and maximize profit out of it for those in whose hands these are tools.

Dan McDermott wrote:
Thought operating there creates an unreality based on 'time', a 'self'-centered reality, a source of division among people.

True, self knowledge seems to be the way out.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #12
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

Paul D's response to the guardian article, (for those interested)


Yeah, it's a slippery slope. But this is the way society is going. You have to first ask why?

On the one hand there is the steady development of industrial technology and homogeneity. On the other, we have a social structure based on greed, which constantly reinforces that element in the human psyche.

I don't think the technology argument stands. The Guardian article posits that these algorithmic tests are done with the best intentions. After all, it says, the administrator needs to solve his/her administrative problems. But why not look at the greed aspect of that. Admin is not a technological issue, it's a human issue. It's about relationship. All the research is about cutting people out who don't fit. The big companies pay big bucks for that because it promises big profits. But how about turning the whole thing around and working on algorithms that help people develop their unique talents? You see the negative bias? That's due to greed, dis-integrative bias rather than integrative bias.

So, as K said, a violent person reacts with violence and a greedy person acts from greed. A society based upon greed and fear, which our one is, universally so, arranges itself according to the greed index and the fear index. The technology is shaped around that and so are the algorithms.

So, hold fire on the algorithms and put society under the magnifier. With regard algorithms and the Holy Grail of perfect knowledge, as with the other Holy Grail of the Arthurian legend, we have to ask, "whom does it serve?"

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #13
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
True, self knowledge seems to be the way out.

Yes...and perhaps in seeing, too, that your peace is my peace (?)

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #14
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks for sharing your convo with Paul, Natarajan.

All I would add to this is that self-knowledge/awareness is having the savvy to be guided by need - (not greed).

We have the technology, too, to have more leisure, work less hours and to also make this a world of fair shares...and lots of other things. What is stopping 'us' ?

I read the other day that the Duke of Westminster has just inherited 7 billion pounds at the age of 25. What would lead him - or anyone else - to hold onto that sort of money ?

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #15
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
and perhaps in seeing, too, that your peace is my peace (?)

The understanding of connectedness, of unity, is a pre-requisite as I see; we may call it faith in the unknown. K takes care to start with defining our existence as relationship.

This post was last updated by natarajan shivan Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #16
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
The understanding of connectedness, of unity, is a pre-requisite as I see; we may call it faith in the unknown. K takes cares to start with defining our existence as relationship.

Yes, for sure, Natarajan. Thanks again

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Mon, 05 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #17
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1471 posts in this forum Offline

Greed is not just about money, power, and material possessions...the brain has been caught in it in its fear of letting go the 'old' mentality, even though it has shown itself to be so destructive on a global scale. Better to stay 'safe', keep whatever 'order' it has come up with and 'soldier' on. 'Self-knowledge' is not embraced because the brain can't 'know' where it might lead. AS K. has said, the brain needs total security to function sanely but the 'security it has 'settled' for works in the short run ( money, the house, the possessions etc.) but is mis-guided and seemingly a disaster in the 'long run'. Gets back to those discussions about a possible wrong turn for the brain when it created this self-image/thinker/time. Bohm, I think, when asked why this might have occurred, said, "because it could". Probably no other creature ever had this option that was given to us. (or if it did, it's gone now, though our intrepid archaeologists would have come upon their non-biodegradable 'mess' by now.)

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #18
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 935 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
...Just noticing the rain - both in sound and sight - on its own can be received as a 'gift' for one who has been on the treadmill of life and not free from work and the noise of the me, me, me. Having an affinity with nature is an anchor of sorts, too, isn't it?

Hi Katy, Very well expressed in my opinion! On the theme of having an affinity or being connected to nature, here's a quote from Native American Chief Seattle or Sealth:

"We do not own the freshness of the air or the sparkle of the water. How can you buy them from us?"

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #19
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
"We do not own the freshness of the air or the sparkle of the water. How can you buy them from us?"

Excellent quote, Sean...and, yes, too true!

Thanks, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Mon, 05 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #20
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1471 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
a quote from Native American Chief Seattle or Sealth:

"We do not own the freshness of the air or the sparkle of the water. How can you buy them from us?"

And the 'lesson' learned (brutally) there was "get with the 'ownership' concept or get lost!"

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #21
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Really an important quote pointing to a fundamental thing. It's very rare thing to be alone, to not be engaged in something all the time. I have never been alone...

I don't know

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #22
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5796 posts in this forum Offline

Katy, I don't know how to highlight text with damn tablet. The quote you posted does closely relate with dying to everything. I suspect that you will understand this: Suddenly the one thing in your life you realized too late that you were utterly dependent upon is gone. You are now completely alone, frightened, groping, struggling to keep from drowning in self pity and complete dispair. Suffering horribly with no escape. Trying to escape from this pain when at last you just let go. There is nothing left. You feel cored like an apple. You sit so still you can count your heartbeats. Do you know what I mean?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #23
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zLfCnGVeL4

Sound of Silence by Simon and Garfunkel

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sun, 04 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #24
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Do you know what I mean?

Yes, I do know what you mean, Jack...and deeply so. With you, Katy

Also, I tried writing to Kinfonet a while ago using a tablet and the frustration with not being to use it as easily - not being able to copy and paste and so on - drove me quite nutz so I had to let it go !

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #25
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

dhirendra singh wrote:
I have never been alone...

Yes, it is rare and usually 'strikes' a person at an older age, Dhiru.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #26
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

So here I am, in the middle way, having had twenty years-
Twenty years largely wasted, the years of l'entre deux guerres-
Trying to use words, and every attempt
Is a wholy new start, and a different kind of failure
Because one has only learnt to get the better of words
For the thing one no longer has to say, or the way in which
One is no longer disposed to say it. And so each venture
Is a new beginning, a raid on the inarticulate,
With shabby equipment always deteriorating
In the general mess of imprecision of feeling,
Undisciplined squads of emotion. And what there is to conquer
By strength and submission, has already been discovered
Once or twice, or several times, by men whom one cannot hope
To emulate - but there is no competition -
There is only the fight to recover what has been lost
And found and lost again and again: and now, under conditions
That seem unpropitious. But perhaps neither gain nor loss.
For us, there is only the trying. The rest is not our business.

T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Mon, 05 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #27
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3176 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
- not being able to copy and paste and so on - drove me quite nutz so I had to let it go !

Drove me nuts too until I found a book that explained the copy and paste deal. But this one finger typing is the pits for sure. How the hell people type on a phone is beyond me.

Let it Be

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #28
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

I can't see my reflection in the waters,
I can't speak the sounds that show no pain,
I can't hear the echo of my footsteps,
Or can't remember the sound of my own name.
Bob Dylan

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #29
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
How the hell people type on a phone is beyond me.

:)

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Sat, 03 Sep 2016 #30
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

I'm watching the desire in myself to escape into frivolity right now - to cheer myself and y'all up !:)

Time for supper...'bye for now, Katy

Life is a struggle of opposites between the serious and the frivolous Virginia

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sat, 03 Sep 2016.

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