Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Is thought the enemy?


Displaying posts 61 - 80 of 80 in total
Sat, 27 May 2017 #61
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1867 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
We haven't been able to agree on the importance of silence. Real silence, real meditation is the only foundation for deeper investigation into these matters. But we have not reached agreement about this.

We have NOT discussed silence, but true silence can never manifest without total understanding of the movement of thought.

If one is not meditating on the movement of thought, then what is one (apparently) meditating upon?

Meditating in this context meaning observation without the observer.

In which case there can be no silence to talk about - can there?

Perhaps a better question would be: What is noise? Or what is manufactured silence? :)

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Sat, 27 May 2017 #62
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1867 posts in this forum Offline


Bohm: But intelligence also has to understand the activity of thought.

Krishnamurti: Yes, yes, we said that.

Bohm: Now would you say that when intelligence understands the activity of thought, then thought is different in its operation?

Krishnamurti: Yes, obviously. That is, if thought has created nationalism as a means of security and when one sees the fallacy of it, the seeing of the fallacy of it is intelligence and thought then creates a different kind of world in which nationalism doesn't exist.

Bohm: Yes.

Krishnamurti: And therefore division, conflict, war and all the rest.

Bohm: That is very clear. Intelligence sees the falseness of what is going on. Now that falseness stops. When thought is free of this falseness it is different. Then it begins to be a parallel to intelligence.

Krishnamurti: That is right.

Bohm: That is, it begins to carry out the implications of intelligence.

Krishnamurti: Therefore thought has a place.

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Mon, 29 May 2017 #63
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 267 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Rich, it is very clearly enunciated in your post quoting Bohm and K.

Technical thought in its place, thus operating within intelligence, is NOT fragmentary any longer as psychological thought is no longer acting. Bohm points this out and K confirms it. And that state is silence!

Yes that is right. The quote of today , though it is from 1947, goes in the same way. Seeing all that surely change the quality of thought.

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day
Group Discussion 25th November, 1947 | Madras, India

... we, from day to day, carry yesterday to today and today to tomorrow and there is always the conditional burden of memory, not factual memory but psychological memory.

....Accumulated memory is static. It has no life unless we inject new life into it, that is, by our recalling the memory, we revive it. By this static memory which is dead we translate life which is a living thing.

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Tue, 30 May 2017 #64
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1867 posts in this forum Offline

Rich - isn't it crucial to find out in every moment of one's life the actuality of what K pointed out? Only then can intelligence manifest.

No amount of analysing K's words in all possible juxtapositions and possibilities will bring about that intelligence.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Tue, 30 May 2017.

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Tue, 30 May 2017 #65
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1163 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Rich - isn't it crucial to find out in every moment of one's life the actuality of what K pointed out? Only then can intelligence manifest.

No amount of analysing K's words in all possible juxtapositions and possibilities will bring about that intelligence.

Hi Patricia,

Clear and messy talk because even though you know that the blade needs to be sharp and clean, caution is required when using the tool (thought).
(See my previous metaphor in # 24)

P.S. after 11 hours

I just Saw that my dutch word 'messcherp' wrongly is translated in 'messy',
this must be Knife sharp. Sorry ;-)

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 30 May 2017.

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Wed, 31 May 2017 #66
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1163 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
P.S. after 11 hours

I just Saw that my dutch word 'messcherp' wrongly is translated in 'messy',
this must be Knife sharp. Sorry ;-)

asked myself if this was 'thought' interrupting
or 'messy' as a definition of 'the word is not the thing' or a Freudian lapsus ??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 31 May 2017.

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Wed, 31 May 2017 #67
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1867 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Wim -

Certainly - the word is not the thing, no matter what the word is, or is translated as. :)

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Wed, 31 May 2017.

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Wed, 31 May 2017 #68
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 267 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Rich - isn't it crucial to find out in every moment of one's life the actuality of what K pointed out? Only then can intelligence manifest.

No amount of analysing K's words in all possible juxtapositions and possibilities will bring about that intelligene.

Naturally. And we should keep in mind, as you said to Wim in the post above, that the word is not the thing, the description not the describe. The word door is not the door , but a pointer, a description; a tool to communicate something which is not the door itself. And that no amount of analysis will make one see the door.

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Thu, 01 Jun 2017 #69
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1867 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
The word door is not the door , but a pointer, a description; a tool to communicate something which is not the door itself. And that no amount of analysis will make one see the door.

Hi Rich.

Walking down the hall - distracted by, and analysing, tomorrow - only to walk smack-bang into the door's edge, breaking one's nose, and having blood running down one's face - IS THE ACTUALITY of the door.

The fact that yesterday someone pointed out the danger of the door is now irrelevant - because the fact has spoken. :)

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Thu, 01 Jun 2017.

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Thu, 01 Jun 2017 #70
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1163 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Walking down the hall - distracted by, and analysing, tomorrow - only to walk smack-bang into the door's edge, breaking one's nose, and having blood running down one's face - IS THE ACTUALITY of the door.

The fact that yesterday someone pointed out the danger of the door is now irrelevant - because the fact has spoken. :)

Yes such an event will certainly make you come out of your hypnosis !! ;-)

see the quote of today:

The purpose of meditation is to discover reality,
not to hypnotize yourself about the reality.
Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | Jun 01, 2017

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 01 Jun 2017.

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Thu, 01 Jun 2017 #71
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1867 posts in this forum Offline

:) Yes Wim - reality. The reality of the door!

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Thu, 01 Jun 2017 #72
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 679 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
And that no amount of analysis will make one see the door.

What about the doors of perception?

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Thu, 01 Jun 2017 #73
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1163 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
What about the doors of perception ?

Hi Sean,

May be the doors of perception is opened
by you realising you damaged the door in stead of the door damaged you !
Eventually are you of an energy type that can move itself
and the door is stuck in its frame.

Five Conversations | 5th Conversation

So education may have a different meaning altogether - not merely transferring what is printed on a page to your brain. Education may mean opening the doors of perception on to the vast movement of life. It may mean learning how to live happily, freely, without hate and confusion, but in beatitude. Modern education is blinding us; we learn to fight each other more and more, to compete, to struggle with each other. Right education is surely finding a different way of life, setting the mind free from its own conditioning. And perhaps then there can be love which in its action will bring about true relationship between man and man.

I would add true relationschip between man and his surrounding.

It's so unfortunate that Mr. Trump does not understand this.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 01 Jun 2017.

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Thu, 01 Jun 2017 #74
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 267 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
What about the doors of perception?

I was using the word door as an example Sean. The door of perception is another story. Is any perception possible when we are....

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Walking down the hall - distracted by, and analysing, tomorrow -

:)

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Thu, 01 Jun 2017 #75
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 679 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
May be the doors of perception is opened
by you realising you damaged the door in stead of the door damaged you !

Hi Wim. This seems to be very deep although I have to admit I'm not really sure what you mean. I shall reflect on this ....

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Thu, 01 Jun 2017 #76
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 679 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
I was using the word door as an example Sean. The door of perception is another story. Is any perception possible when we are....

Maybe we all need a good bang on the nose from time to time to waken us up a little.

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Fri, 02 Jun 2017 #77
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1163 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

May be the doors of perception is opened
by you realising you damaged the door in stead of the door damaged you !

Hi Wim. This seems to be very deep
although I have to admit I'm not really sure what you mean.
I shall reflect on this ....

Hi Sean

Keep in mind that the whole universe as we know it is movement of energy on different levels, scales and densities. From this perpective of the whole there is a confrontation of two different forms of energy, and that's all.

By the way the doors of perception are open no key needed ;-)

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 02 Jun 2017.

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Fri, 02 Jun 2017 #78
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3122 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
By the way the doors of perception are open no key needed ;-)

The doors are open, and yet, the bombs are still dropping? QOTD: "War exists because of psychological and economic reasons. Until those causes are fundamentally altered, war will exist, and praying for peace is of no value." I'm not implying that you are recommending prayer in your post, Wim...but the fact of war and fundamentally distorted perception (of friends vs. enemies, my country/ideals/religion vs. yours, etc) is obvious.

Let it Be

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Fri, 02 Jun 2017 #79
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1163 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Wim...but the fact of war and fundamentally distorted perception (of friends vs. enemies, my country/ideals/religion vs. yours, etc) is obvious.

Yes Tom,

it's obvious that even Krishnamurti - with his clear insight - didn't stop the wars going, but he didn't join the going against club either, did he ??
He only refused to go in battle with anyone, not even wit the Rajagopals.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 03 Jun 2017 #80
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1163 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:

Hi Sean,

May be the doors of perception is opened
by you realising you damaged the door in stead of the door damaged you !

Eventually are you of an energy type that can move itself
and the door is stuck in its frame.

Another take could be:

Thought is stuck in its frame and awareness could do something with it !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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