Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #31
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1315 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Which of course detours the discussion into a dead end.

That's OK Richard, out of the "dead" the new is reborn.

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #32
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dan McDermott wrote:
That's OK Richard, out of the "dead" the new is reborn.

Now why didn't I think of that? :)

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #33
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1877 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
But Dan, how can I do anything for myself, if my self, is simply a bundle/collection of other peoples psychological poop?

Richard - there are no other people so there is no "other people's psychological poop" - there is only one brain and one consciousness - "you" are that consciousness, and YES the whole of it - same applies to every so-called individual.

So there is only one self - same movement different attachments - which is why one looks at the movement of the brain within one's skull and not another's.

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #34
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
there are no other people so there is no "other people's psychological poop"

I won't argue your points. Mr. Krishnamurti seems frequently to suggest that there are and there is though.

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #35
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1877 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
A change then in one brain will affect the whole of it, isn't it ? Does any reunion or gathering of people will establish and clarify this ground ? As I see it, a drop of clarity in an ocean of darkness in our day to day life , in our day to day relationship will have its own effect.

Yes - the change (insight) in one brain is a change (insight) in the whole brain.

A drop of clarity simply does not reinforce the dominant psychological paradigm in moment-to-moment living.

So while the ground may not be established by discussion in a group situation - where there is a drop of clarity (insight) that ground will act regardless. :)

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #36
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 288 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, this is exactly what I meant. You see, I don't say that the forum shouln't exist and that conversation is of no use. But one should be aware of the limitations of it, if I can say.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Mon, 12 Jun 2017.

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #37
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1877 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
I won't argue your points. Mr. Krishnamurti seems frequently to suggest that there are and there is though.

K never argued for a "them" and "us" - K only ever addressed the whole of human disorder.

He always referred to the conditioning of "the self" - not "yourself" or "myself". By observing the movement of the self in one's brain one is observing the action of the whole self - not just my personalised version of it as "me".

If the consciousness of humans is common, and the movement of thought is common, and the suffering is common etc etc, then it follows logically that the brain in which this conditioning, thought and suffering is occurring is common - does it not?

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #38
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1877 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
But one should be aware of the limits of it, if I can say.

Of course! Because in forums all we have to communicate is words and the word is not the thing. Which is why a ground must first be established through inquiry.

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #39
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K never argued for a "them" and "us"

No one is arguing that he did.

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #40
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
then it follows logically

K didn't argue for following the logic either. In fact, he argued that the pursuit of logic/knowledge must come to an end.

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #41
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1877 posts in this forum Offline


Patricia Hemingway wrote:

'there are no other people so there is no "other people's psychological poop"'

To which Richard head replied: 'I won't argue your points. Mr. Krishnamurti seems frequently to suggest that there are and there is though.'


Patricia Hemingway wrote: 'K never argued for a "them" and "us"'

to which richard head replied: 'No one is arguing that he did.'

Actually Richard you did argue that when you said" 'Mr Krishnamurti seems frequently to suggest that there are and there is though.'

When you argue that there is "other people's psychological poop" - you are arguing a "them" and "us" - are you not? K never did that!

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #42
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1877 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
K didn't argue for following the logic either. In fact, he argued that the pursuit of logic/knowledge must come to an end.

K spoke consistently over his life of the necessity for a sane and logical brain - it is throughout the whole of the teaching and very easy to source.

He never argued that logic and knowledge must come to an end - what he pointed out was that psychological knowledge as the self is at the root of all psychological disorder, and this is what must end.

Technical knowledge, as technical thinking, is essential for the brain to act logically and holistically.

Regarding your use of the word "pursuit" - one cannot pursue logic, it comes about only when intelligence acts - meaning that the self has ended! :)

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #43
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1877 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Why do you say the "myth of emotions"? That as we are not 'capable' of love, empathy,etc., we aren't capable of 'real' emotion? (the 'self' isn't)

Hi Dan.

The word emotion etymologically means "agitation of the mind" - implying a disturbance - not harmony.

So are love and empathy an emotion, an agitation of the mind?

Of course not - they are not emotions. We are just heavily conditioned to believe that they are.

So therefore we need to completely question and understand such conditioning. :)

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Mon, 12 Jun 2017 #44
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1242 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
So therefore we need to completely question and understand such conditioning.

Yes,

An empty mind is fully available for all that occurs .... A mind which is....
on one-way or-another busy with itself is only partially available
and as such not able to act completely.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Mon, 12 Jun 2017.

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Tue, 13 Jun 2017 #45
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
He never argued that logic and knowledge must come to an end

Again, I won't argue with your logic.

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Tue, 13 Jun 2017 #46
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1877 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Is it something like this as a "ground" that you were pointing at Patricia? The one Brain, the one Self, the one fear, conflict, sorrow etc.?

Yes and no! Actually Dan the ground is the very beginning of asking what we mean by certain words, what their etymological meaning is, and the manner in which these words are used to communicate something which is not describable in words.

Without that solid very logical base of technical knowledge, all that the brain does is to create a virtual reality out of assumed meanings which the self has made as part of its sacred structure.

The fact is that the self has been put together over one's life, and we are already born into and from that stream of conditioned reality, called consciousness, and that cannot end by a bunch of people agreeing on terms which they endlessly repeat to each other. Something else entirely has to come about for the brain to have an insight into its psychological conditioning.

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Tue, 13 Jun 2017 #47
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1877 posts in this forum Offline

Richard - over K's entire public life he frequently asked if it was possible to live a sane, healthy and logical life, the teaching is riddled with these references.

Don't believe this writer - simply go to the source and find out.

Regardless - how is it possible for a brain which is disordered and completely illogical to end this illogic without the intelligence of logic acting?

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Sat, 01 Jul 2017 #48
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
over K's entire public life he frequently asked if it was possible to live a sane, healthy and logical life, the teaching is riddled with these references.

Alright. And so, all those living "a sane, healthy and logical life", please raise your hand.

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Sat, 01 Jul 2017 #49
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
how is it possible for a brain which is disordered and completely illogical to end this illogic without the intelligence of logic acting?

Sounds right. How many posters appear to have "the intelligence of logic acting" in their posts/ lives? Possibly the person who recommended this quote?

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Tue, 04 Jul 2017 #50
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1877 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
How many posters appear to have "the intelligence of logic acting" in their posts/ lives?

Richard - why are we so conditioned to look at, and to, everybody else?

How would you (the universal you) know if anyone else was living a sane, healthy and logical life?

So, is your question about 'posters' a wrong question?

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Tue, 04 Jul 2017 #51
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
is your question about 'posters' a wrong question?

Right or wrong, the questions are simply a response to the quoted posts.

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Tue, 04 Jul 2017 #52
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
How would you (the universal you) know if anyone else was living a sane, healthy and logical life?

Not really interested in finding/knowing the "what should be". Just asking questions.

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Tue, 04 Jul 2017 #53
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
why are we so conditioned to look at, and to, everybody else?

This is the nature of the mind that seeks answers "out there". And turns that accumulated "out there", into the authority of "in here".

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Tue, 04 Jul 2017 #54
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1877 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:

How many posters appear to have "the intelligence of logic acting" in their posts/ lives?

richard head wrote:

Right or wrong, the questions are simply a response to the quoted posts.

Richard - it is a wrong question because it involves judgement of others, and it assumes the division of the questioner (you) and the questioned (the posters) - whereas in fact the only place you can be sure of "the intelligence of logic acting" is in you (the questioner). Then you are no longer the questioner of others, but the observer of your own actions.

Nothing personal Richard.

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