Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The beauty of it.


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Sun, 18 Jun 2017 #31
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

idiot ? wrote:
But people will say, No, no, don't concern yourself with that. It's just gossip.

People yes, also K himself indicated this was a non serious/inadequate avenue of "enquiry".

The pursuit of tittilating/interesting knowledge/information has a place in modern life as just another escape/entertainment.(K liked to be entertained) But as an avenue of "enquiry" it falls short time after time.

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Sun, 18 Jun 2017 #32
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

idiot ? wrote:
I think his life and bios are interesting.

Yes and I read Playboy for the interesting articles....

But the reality is most folks want to know about K's person as an avenue/path/method to find out his secret. Oh, and I really read Playboy to see pictures of naked women. :)

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Sun, 18 Jun 2017 #33
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
idiot ? wrote:

But people will say, No, no, don't concern yourself with that. It's just gossip.
People yes, also K himself indicated this was a non serious/inadequate avenue of "enquiry".

Concerning Mary Zimbalist's book....K was constantly encouraging her to write daily in her diary. He wanted her to write what it was like to be with K., and he used to encourage her to spend more time with the daily writing. It may not be 'serious' inquiry, but it's interesting reading....maybe even more so than playboy ;) I found it was like meeting him in daily life, but there are also excerpts from 'serious' conversations K had with Mrs Z and Alain Naude....and others.

Let it Be

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Sun, 18 Jun 2017 #34
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
But the reality is most folks want to know about K's person as an avenue/path/method to find out his secret.

Yes, I think that's probably true. But I read a couple of bios of Hitler recently. To find out his secret? I think not... Hahaha Oh yeah, I forgot....Robbie Robertson't bio...the leader of the 60's group, The Band...and cohort of Dylan too. Great book....probably best bio I ever read, but I'm a long time fan of the music.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 18 Jun 2017.

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Sun, 18 Jun 2017 #35
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
...the leader of the 60's group, The Band...

I saw "the Band" in 1974.

I have read the bio's of many interesting individuals, K included. Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Jean Harlow, Harpo Marx (distantly related to Karl :)).

This post was last updated by richard head (account deleted) Sun, 18 Jun 2017.

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Sun, 18 Jun 2017 #36
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
The Band...and cohort of Dylan too.

The legendary Eric Clapton also was an admirer and friend of Mr. Robertson, as I recall.

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Sun, 18 Jun 2017 #37
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
The legendary Eric Clapton also was an admirer and friend of Mr. Robertson, as I recall.

After Big Pink came out, not just Clapton, but George Harrison also, made the trip up to Woodstock to meet the band. Clapton later revealed that he would have liked to join the Band. And that album influenced Clapton to turn from the hard rock/blues that he was famous for to a totally different musical direction. One of my all time favorite albums...Music from Big Pink. Oh yeah, Dylan was blown away by 'The Weight' the first time he heard it. There's a lot about Dylan in the book too. Such an amazing bio! OK, sorry K.people. We should probably get back on topic.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 18 Jun 2017.

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Tue, 20 Jun 2017 #38
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 844 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
But the reality is most folks want to know about K's person as an avenue/path/method to find out his secret

Hi Richard. I think it's very difficult to know why most people want to know about K's person. Perhaps there are many reasons. Surely K's life is of interest to many people interested in K's teachings as it may throw light on how the teachings can be lived.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Tue, 20 Jun 2017.

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Tue, 20 Jun 2017 #39
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
Surely K's life is of interest to many people interested in K's teachings as it may throw light on how the teachings can be lived.

If you look closely Sean, you will see we are saying the same thing.

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Tue, 20 Jun 2017 #40
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 641 posts in this forum Offline

I can only speak for myself. Personally I am not interested in reading K bios to learn any secret K may or may not have had, nor to find out how the teachings can be lived, nor anything like that.

Basically I am fascinated by K's conditioning - which of course he claimed he didn't have.

If you think about, K and his younger brother won the lottery. Here were two poor, dirty, nearly destitute children, the 8th and 9th kids in the family, who were sometimes beaten. Then some Theosophy wack jobs discovered them and they hit the jackpot! They were treated nicely, clothed, fed much better and healthier food, given the finest one-on-one education, given exercise programs, taught to ride horses and play tennis and croquet, given veneration and respect as future spiritual teachers. All they had to do was go along with some wacky Theosophical ideas and training and they were living high! What would you have done? Gone back to live with your father? I don't think so.

The myth of Gautama Buddha is that he grew up a prince with riches, kept away from suffering. Then he gave that up to live life as a penniless hermit in the woods. Eventually he found the middle way between extremes.

The Theosophists did the opposite. They took a poor Indian kid and made him a prince. He eventually found, not the middle way, but no way - that truth is a pathless land and there is no method. Fascinating reverse Buddha story.

While K eventually rejected much of Theosophy, like organizations, initiations, proceeding along a path of spiritual development, astral travel, clairvoyance development, kundalini practices, etc. It is amazing how much of what he taught is right out of Theosophy. The Theosophists taught give up individual self for the higher Self of God, for service to making the world better. K taught the ending of self. K was INSTRUCTED to investigate for himself and test out the spiritual training he was receiving! Investigating for yourself is core K. K was essentially trained to be extremely sensitive, told that there were auras and vibrations around not only people but objects, too, and he was encouraged to "clear seeing" on multiple levels. Sure, a lot of baloney, but the looking about at everything, at the whole, with attention, well, that would become pure K! And there is more.

K didn't just poof!, pull his teaching out of thin air. He was trained to be the spiritual teacher of the world. He had to free himself from the training and sift out the real from the baloney. But it is so interesting to see what baby he kept when he threw out the bath water.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 20 Jun 2017.

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Tue, 20 Jun 2017 #41
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Hi idiot?

Wonderful post. What a beautiful review on K and his life!

" The myth of Gautama Buddha is that he grew up a prince with riches, kept away from suffering. Then he gave that up to live life as a penniless hermit in the woods. Eventually he found the middle way between extremes.

The Theosophists did the opposite. They took a poor Indian kid and made him a prince. He eventually found, not the middle way, but no way - that truth is a pathless land and there is no method. Fascinating reverse Buddha story."

The above observations between Goutama Buddha and K are so interesting and they nevertheless brought a smile and good laugh :) a good study and going to remain in memory for long time.

" Investigating for yourself is core K."

" K didn't just poof!, pull his teaching out of thin air. He was trained to be the spiritual teacher of the world. He had to free himself from the training and sift out the real from the baloney. But it is so interesting to see what baby he kept when he threw out the bath water."

The above statements regarding k and the teaching that emerged are being fundamentally true, very well thought out and insightful .

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #42
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
"The mind of this man from childhood till now is constantly vacant."

Nicely expressed Ken and with such a completely different meaning
than the usual "empty head" or "nitwit" ;-)

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #43
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1425 posts in this forum Offline

I saw this in myself this morning, this lack of "vacancy". It was almost an hour after waking that I became aware of the sounds outside of the birds as well as the light etc. Up until then what was going on was a sort of non-stop talking to myself about different things, a chattering that obscured everything else. In reading some of K.'s descriptions of his walks in nature, I'm always struck by the 'intensity' of his experiences there, the attention to the forms and the colors etc. Without the constant chatter of overriding thought, there could be more of just sensing the world around one. Perhaps that is what he means by being "vacant", the space created by the absence of psychological 'thought/time' that allows the 'world' to come in.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 22 Jun 2017.

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #44
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 641 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Without the constant chatter of overriding thought, there could be more of just sensing the world around one. Perhaps that is what he means by being "vacant", the space created by the absence of psychological 'thought/time' that allows the 'world' to come in.

Of course!

As a boy K was looked down on for sometimes being vacant. When he took his college entrance exams, he just stared out of the window in a vacant way and didn't complete them. For some reason, he didn't get in to Oxford.

And Ken is obviously joking on this air head theme.

But despite the intellectuality of most K-interested people, despite the fact that K dialogued with Bohm, a world class thinker, despite how he encourages you to Think On These Things and to go into questions deeply, central and vital to K teaching and his life is the still, clear, open, innocent mind. In other words, meditation. In other words, awareness of what is. He says it again and again.

When you look for yourself: is the thinker the thought? Is the observer the observed? To examine these key K phrases is to pause in a moment of not knowing, of silence. These phrases literally give one pause. They point to the silent, open mind.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 22 Jun 2017.

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #45
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1425 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
In other words, meditation. In other words, awareness of what is.

Yes, actually everything is 'new' isn't it? It is only the 'fear of letting go' that wants to hold onto the past, to see through 'old' eyes. To keep one foot in the known...it is the fear of what will happen if 'I' lose 'control'. this is what 'meditation' is, coming to this point, it is the experiment of 'letting go'. Then the 'newness' of each moment replaces the fear that dissolves, that turned out to be only 'resistance' to the 'new', resistance to the 'unknown'.

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #46
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1425 posts in this forum Offline

Something I recall regarding this 'vacancy' or 'emptiness' of K.s. He was talking about how he answers a question put to him. He likened the question to a pebble being dropped into a still pond. The ripples caused by the pebble were the answer that 'arose'. This image makes me understand a bit how it was that his answers almost always came across as fresh even though the subjects had been addressed so often. My way to answer a question would be to react to certain words, my accumulated knowledge of the subject, my relation to the questioner etc.

This also, I think, is in line with K.'s statement that "life is movement" (as well as non-movement) a "gathering in" and a letting go..."holding" is the action of the 'self' ('holding' is the 'self'.)

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 24 Jun 2017.

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Sat, 24 Jun 2017 #47
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The ripples caused by the pebble were the answer the 'arose'. This image makes me understand a bit how it was that his answers almost always came across as fresh even though the subjects had been addressed so often.

Hi Dan

Nicely worded
another thing what touched lately me his question "What is the use of a flower ?"
combined with "the flowering of thought" thread !

He could keep on flowering by questioning everything !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sun, 25 Jun 2017 #48
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

idiot ? wrote:
I am not interested in reading K bios to learn any secret K may or may not have had,

The mind that has "interest" is seeking profit in one form or another.

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Sun, 25 Jun 2017 #49
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

idiot ? wrote:
Here were two poor, dirty, nearly destitute children, the 8th and 9th kids in the family, who were sometimes beaten

As I recall the father was a mid level govt. worker of some kind. Hardly destitute.

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Sun, 25 Jun 2017 #50
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
idiot ? wrote:

I am not interested in reading K bios to learn any secret K may or may not have had,
The mind that has "interest" is seeking profit in one form or another.

Or escape. I guess one could call that escaping a type of 'profit'....it makes 'me' feel better in some way....or at least makes me feel less stress/conflict/worry/anxious/confused.

Let it Be

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Sun, 25 Jun 2017 #51
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Hardly destitute.

But there were like 9 kids I think. And their heads and eyebrows were full of lice. He was exceedingly thin as well...perhaps malnourished, according to what I read. But yes, I read as well that the father was a govt. worker. Some kind of clerk? No birth control, I guess, to have so many kids.

Let it Be

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Sun, 25 Jun 2017 #52
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
I guess one could call that escaping a type of 'profit'....

No need to guess Tom, seems quite obvious. :)

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Sun, 25 Jun 2017 #53
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
No birth control, I guess, to have so many kids.

Many children is a necessity for old age. Those kids that survive "third world" life will be able to care for elderly parents.
A numbers game really.

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Sun, 25 Jun 2017 #54
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

I guess one could call that escaping a type of 'profit'....
No need to guess Tom, seems quite obvious. :)

Right, feeling less bad is good.

Let it Be

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Sun, 25 Jun 2017 #55
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
Right, feeling less bad is good.

Yes, and doesn't it follow that coming to Kinfonet shows when one is looking to feel "less bad", one is seeking K's secret?

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Sun, 25 Jun 2017 #56
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
one is seeking K's secret?

Sure....I think K found the secret to feeling good(happiness), and I want that....because I'm suffering in one way or another.

Let it Be

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Mon, 26 Jun 2017 #57
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Why we seek help here on the forum or from K...comments in parentheses by John Raica:

K: "Please let us put aside (these cultural ) generalities and consider what ( the spiritual) guidance or help means to each one of us. Does it not imply the resolving of our personal difficulties, pains, sorrows? If you are a 'spiritual' teacher, I come to you in order to be shown (how to create ) a happier way of life, or to be cured of some (karmic ?) disease.
We seek ( to be told how to achieve a peaceful ?) way of life from the 'enlightened' man, (as we expect some reliable ?) knowledge or information from the 'learned' (guy) .

We all want to 'achieve' (someting lasting?) , we want to be successful, we want to be ( care free and ?) 'happy' so we look for a ( certified ?) pattern of life which will help us to attain what we desire, sacred or profane. (And eventually ?) after trying many (worldly recipes & ) 'things' , we think of Truth as the supreme goal, the ultimate peace and happiness, and we want to attain It; so we are 'on the lookout' to find That which we desire.

But can ( the self-centred ?) desire ever make its way to Reality? Does not the desire for something, however noble breed (project its own ?) illusions? And as this (process of ?) desire acts, does it not set up (its own psychological -) structures (based on ?) accepting authority, imitation and fear? This is the actual 'psychological' process, is it not? And is
this 'help' , or self-deception?"

T: Now, as K says it's useless to seek help or guidance from another in 'spiritual' matters....in resolving our pain and suffering, why did he spend over 50 years and countless hours giving talks? He could simply have put up a sign outside of Saanen or Ojai, or wherever he was staying: "Go away...no help to be found here"

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 26 Jun 2017.

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Mon, 26 Jun 2017 #58
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 641 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Now, as K says it's useless to seek help or guidance from another in 'spiritual' matters....in resolving our pain and suffering, why did he spend over 50 years and countless hours giving talks? He could simply have put up a sign outside of Saanen or Ojai, or wherever he was staying: "Go away...no help to be found here"

There are certain dilemmas inherent in K teaching, yes?

If spiritual teachers are of no use, why did K spend his life doing spiritual teaching? If freedom from the known is vital, what can one do when there is no method? If true meditation or awareness is choiceless, completely free of any intentionality, than what can one do when it doesn’t spontaneously show up? We are left paralyzed, without a solution.

So let’s take up the first of these dilemmas. We are K-interested people. (I assume or why else are you here?) We have, to one degree or another, been moved by K teachings. And now we return to his teaching about the uselessness of spiritual teachers and see that it contradicts that we have already been “taught” by him!

Is K a special exception? All spiritual teachers are problematic except K? Why would that be? If there is a problem with gurus then surely the same must apply to K. So we need to clarify, to be crystal clear, about what the problems with gurus are.

You know, none of us lives in isolation. Even if you go off to a cave in Tibet or something, you are still a social animal and you are connected to all humanity. You are relationship. You have an effect on others and others have an effect on you. If you never pick up a spiritual book, you are still in contact with others, some of whom have read spiritual books or been involved with some kind of spirituality. So there’s no purity; we’re all a jumble of connectivity.

Michael Krohnen, in his book 1001 Lunches with K, tells us about K relating little spiritual stories a number of times. Anyone with a background in Zen Buddhism will recognize these as Zen anecdotes! You have to conclude that someone, who had read Zen stories, passed them on to K, probably without attributing them to their Zen sources, and K apparently liked them and retold them. The man who “never read any spiritual books” got contaminated anyway!

So none of us live in a vacuum.

The best a spiritual teacher can do is to point you back to yourself, to your own investigation, which then eliminates the need for the spiritual teacher, doesn’t it?

Clarify for yourself what is problematic about gurus. How you get an image about what enlightenment might be and how you then aim for it. And how that image limits your discovery of actuality. And how ideas of the guru can close off your freedom to explore. Basically spiritual teaching is part of the known, the past, and with it you remain entangled in the known rather than free of it.

Only your own investigation right here right now has any chance of freedom from the known. The best spiritual teaching can really do is point you back to yourself. Then it is up to you to discover if there can be freedom from yourself, from the known, and from all spiritual teaching, including from K spiritual teaching.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 26 Jun 2017.

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Mon, 26 Jun 2017 #59
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
There are certain dilemmas inherent in K teaching, yes?

Don't forget K's statement when he disolved the Order of the Star...."My goal is to set man unconditionally free." Then he says not to seek help from others. Weren't the talks his way to give help....to set man free?

Let it Be

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Tue, 27 Jun 2017 #60
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

You guys have the chic to make something that seems so simple very complicated. If someone with a good eye sees something and try to share it with someone else, and says: please don't accept anything that I say but see by yourself, see if what I say is true or not, discover by yourself what is true, then where is the dilemna ? All his work seems to me like but a description of what is, of what is reality. Though, whether one sees that what he says is true or not is another matter.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Tue, 27 Jun 2017.

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