Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Just a word of thanks...


Displaying posts 91 - 105 of 105 in total
Sat, 12 Aug 2017 #91
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
How do you deal with psychopaths/narcissists in your life?

That one's easy. Stay as far away as possible. Talking with them is useless....psychopaths that is. If they're running for president, don't vote for them! Or support their opponent with your money and time. I don't see any other way.

Let it Be

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Sat, 12 Aug 2017 #92
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
Well, how will you decide to achieve inner order (or anything) from a state of disorder? How do you deal with psychopaths/narcissists in your life? How do you deal with disease/illness?

I can't decide to achieve inner order. I am seeing my own disorder, that's all I can do, isn't it? Out of seeing my own disorder, there comes some degree of order in my own thinking and action, as I see it... but maybe not.

As for dealing with psychopaths, I think what Tom says (#91) makes sense, unless it's someone close to you, a son, daughter, a friend, a parent - then to be as rational, as non-judgmental, as realistic as possible - meaning to be fully attentive - do the best according to one's understanding. How do you deal with it?

Added:

And as Jack says, if it's a public figure, speak out to the best of one's understanding, not losing sight of one's own limitations.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sat, 12 Aug 2017.

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Sat, 12 Aug 2017 #93
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1046 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
And as Jack says, if it's a public figure, speak out to the best of one's understanding, not losing sight of one's own limitations.

is it much too much to asked for humanity that leaders of states are tested
for psychological stability and health ??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 12 Aug 2017 #94
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
is it much too much to asked for humanity that leaders of states are tested
for psychological stability and health ??

But who will test them, Wim? Dr. Frankenstein, the other politicians, religious leaders.... who?

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Sat, 12 Aug 2017 #95
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Wim Opdam wrote:

is it much too much to asked for humanity that leaders of states are tested
for psychological stability and health ??
But who will test them, Wim? Dr. Frankenstein, the other politicians, religious leaders.... who?

And Trump's supporters would accept the verdict of the mental health experts? Like they accept the evidence of the scientists on climate change? Irony intended ;)

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Sun, 13 Aug 2017 #96
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1163 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I can't decide to achieve inner order. I am seeing my own disorder, that's all I can do, isn't it? Out of seeing my own disorder, there comes some degree of order in my own thinking and action, as I see it... but maybe not.

Well, just because someone's brain is not wired up to experience empathy, doesn't necessarily mean there is no order to their thinking. But there's more to it than just a lack of empathy.

Also what does disorder mean anyway? Is there an objective definition? The word means something out sequence, something out of place, right? Or is it always subjective? When a doctor sees a cancer, he sees disorder right? And he studies it, and gives treatment, and maybe if the patient is lucky there is relatively less disorder.

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Sun, 13 Aug 2017 #97
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1163 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
As for dealing with psychopaths, I think what Tom says (#91) makes sense, unless it's someone close to you, a son, daughter, a friend, a parent - then to be as rational, as non-judgmental, as realistic as possible - meaning to be fully attentive - do the best according to one's understanding. How do you deal with it?

I try to keep my distance also, as I have learnt, from experience, that there is no way to give someone else empathy or sensitivity or compassion. A psychopath will take and take from an empath, until there is nothing left to take, or the psychopath gets bored and finds another target. The psychopath has a massive advantage other the empath, in being able to achieve his/her goals: he/she does not care, and will go to shocking lengths, to psychologically manipulate and attack. The empath, will always lose in this "game" of goals and power. What an empath, can do that a psychopath cannot, is form relatively healthy relationships with other empaths.

This post was last updated by dave h Sun, 13 Aug 2017.

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Sun, 13 Aug 2017 #98
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

96:

dave h wrote:
Well, just because someone's brain is not wired up to experience empathy, doesn't necessarily mean there is no order to their thinking. But there's more to it than just a lack of empathy.

Also what does disorder mean anyway? Is there an objective definition? The word means something out sequence, something out of place, right? Or is it always subjective? When a doctor sees a cancer, he sees disorder right? And he studies it, and gives treatment, and maybe if the patient is lucky there is relatively less disorder.

I agree, there is order in disorder as well. If there were no order in disease, for example, no treatment could be found, could it? In spite of black holes and other such things which I don’t understand, if there were no order in space and the universe, there could be no life at all, it seems to me. The planets would long ago have smashed into each other.

But here we are talking about psychological disorder creating disorder in relationship on every level. This is not a definition but something that each one of us either experiences, perceives … or not. Isn’t it? If someone feels or perceives his life to be in disorder, then he is interested in order, which means understanding his own disorder. No?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sun, 13 Aug 2017.

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Mon, 14 Aug 2017 #99
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1046 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

is it much too much to asked for humanity that leaders of states are tested
for psychological stability and health ??

But who will test them, Wim? Dr. Frankenstein, the other politicians, religious leaders.... who?

Yes, it would be of some arrogance if I would give up myself as a volunteer ;-)

But why do we send a criminal on the basis of a jury to prison or worse to a death penalty ??

Tom Paine wrote:
And Trump's supporters would accept the verdict of the mental health experts? Like they accept the evidence of the scientists on climate change? Irony intended ;)

If it's done by the nomination he did not had followers than, he had not gathered his troops !! He is made great by the media through his outraging behaviour isn't he ??

Wim Opdam wrote:
is it much too much to asked for humanity that leaders of states are tested
for psychological stability and health ??

it is clear to me that if there is a solution at all it must come from a psychological and healthy humanity, which is not in need of leaders or at least such persons did not have a chance to be elected.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 14 Aug 2017 #100
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
If it's done by the nomination he did not had followers than, he had not gathered his troops !!

Perhaps it should be a requirement for running for president in the first place. They (who?) test you before you're even allowed to be a candidate. It's not clear how the standard for sanity would be determined, however. Is Clinton sane? Or Bush, who lied our way into a war that cost hundreds of thousands of lives?

Let it Be

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Wed, 16 Aug 2017 #101
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1046 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Perhaps it should be a requirement for running for president in the first place.

Why perhaps Tom ??

One can arrange it without giving the person's name in anonymity
as well for the jury as well for the candidates.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 19 Aug 2017 #102
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1163 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I agree, there is order in disorder as well. If there were no order in disease, for example, no treatment could be found, could it? In spite of black holes and other such things which I don’t understand, if there were no order in space and the universe, there could be no life at all, it seems to me. The planets would long ago have smashed into each other.

Maybe those planets would never have formed in the first place. Maybe there are many kinds of universes out there with different rules/order, and only some are able to generate entities that are able to form concepts such as order. In any case, these conversations always touch on these issues: can you understand disorder without understanding order? don't they both go together? aren't these concepts always subjective?

We are limited beings, going through life with this limited understanding of ourselves, and others, and yet here we are, we still have to act, and deal with the problems our species faces. Even if I am not enlightened, I know abusing someone because of the colour of their skin, is wrong. I don't understand this notion that we can only contribute to disorder, because we are not enlightened enough yet. It's like saying, I don't completely understand how cancers work, so I better do nothing at all.

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Sat, 19 Aug 2017 #103
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:

I agree, there is order in disorder as well. If there were no order in disease, for example, no treatment could be found, could it? In spite of black holes and other such things which I don’t understand, if there were no order in space and the universe, there could be no life at all, it seems to me. The planets would long ago have smashed into each other.

dave h wrote:

Maybe those planets would never have formed in the first place. Maybe there are many kinds of universes out there with different rules/order, and only some are able to generate entities that are able to form concepts such as order. In any case, these conversations always touch on these issues: can you understand disorder without understanding order? don't they both go together? aren't these concepts always subjective?

The planets did form and there is order observable. In what is observed of the planets and the universe, it is seen that there is order governing their movements at all levels. Disorder is also observed, but it does not negate the order. The fact is, from the smallest to the largest elements, there is order. If there were no order, we could not have a calendar, we could not have navigated the 7 seas, we could not use fire to cook, we could not build anything, we could not know what would happen each time we took a step and put our foot down, we could not do anything. We could not BE. I never understood the concept of parallel universes or multiple universes. As far as I understand “universe”, it means the undivided totality.

There’s order in the universe, which includes disorder within it. Order is the guiding light, isn't it?, not disorder. Just as there is order and disorder in the universe, there is order and disorder in human beings. I don’t see order and disorder as subjective. There is order observable in the cosmos, it is not subjective. There is order in cancer, it is not subjective. To name certain psychological disorders as psychopathy is to observe those disorders. They would not be seen as disorders if order were not the guiding light. You asked earlier how others deal with psychopaths/narcissists in their lives or with disease. That is recognizing disorder, isn’t it? Is it subjective?

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Sat, 19 Aug 2017 #104
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
We are limited beings, going through life with this limited understanding of ourselves, and others, and yet here we are, we still have to act, and deal with the problems our species faces. Even if I am not enlightened, I know abusing someone because of the colour of their skin, is wrong. I don't understand this notion that we can only contribute to disorder, because we are not enlightened enough yet. It's like saying, I don't completely understand how cancers work, so I better do nothing at all.

Whatever action is taken with respect to cancer, or anything else, can’t just be done in a haphazard fashion, can it? Will we take the approach that it’s better not to study cancer to understand the order which governs it? Will we rather try “eye of newt, toe of frog, wool of bat, tongue of dog, adder’s fork”, rubbing our heads and patting our tummies, spinning around 10 times while singing a song? … At least then we’ll be DOING SOMETHING. Is that “doing something” actually doing something? Is it better than doing nothing at all?

Do we take the approach not to bother studying ourselves, not to see if we can discern the order governing our disorder, and just plod ahead and let the disorder act? Is that “doing something”? We may know that abusing someone because of their colour is wrong but how do we act or react faced with those who think it’s just dandy, who think that it’s their inalienable right? Punch them, shoot them, shake your fist at them, yell at them, ridicule them, mow them down with a car, write a book, sing kumbaya? Isn’t the reaction, whatever it is, giving free reign and authority to the disorder? I may know that one type of abuse is wrong but do I recognize the root of abuse in myself, do I observe myself being abusive to a child, a co-worker, a homeless person because I’m afraid?

We contribute to the disorder because we let our disorder act and we call that action. We "let disorder act" by the mere fact of being ignorant of our motives. I’m not saying not to act. Yes, we have to act - life demands it. But can we act thoughtfully - meaning soberly, rationally, with clarity as to motive, without mere intellectualization? And if it turns out I make a mistake because I misunderstood, I pick up from there and still act. Can we act thoughtfully, not willy-nilly, not on a guess or a gamble, on authority or tradition?

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Sat, 19 Aug 2017 #105
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
We may know that abusing someone because of their colour is wrong but how do we act or react faced with those who think it’s just dandy, who think that it’s their inalienable right? Punch them, shoot them, shake your fist at them, yell at them, ridicule them

One of the turning points in the 2016 presidential campaign was when Clinton said something to the effect that 50% of Trump's supporters were a "basket of deplorables". She condemned racism, I'm sure, yet she felt she was one of the liberal elites....so superior to those deplorables. She tried to make it into 'us vs. them' for political gain. It was a turning point in the campaign, I think, that might have changed the minds of some undecided voters and helped Trump to win. So she may have been aware of the danger of racial division but she was totally blind to other divisions in consciousness that are equally dangerous. I don't know if this touches on Dave's points or not, but I thought her behavior was very revealing about how our minds often work.....trying to create order with one hand and destroying it with the other.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 19 Aug 2017.

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