Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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QOTD Dec.10


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Sun, 10 Dec 2017 #1
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

What is K saying here? Anyone care to comment in a serious, unbiased manner?

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Mon, 11 Dec 2017 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 265 posts in this forum Offline

K Quote of the Day Dec. 10, 2017:

"It is futile and a waste of time, leading to mere opinion, to consider what it is to be real, spontaneous, to be oneself. Such consideration leads to illusion. Let us concern ourselves with what is the necessary condition that will reveal the real."


It is the mind which grasps for the real and thinks it can wrap its understanding around the real. But the real is unavailable to the thinking mind. No discussion or description on kinfonet or anywhere can contain or express the real.

When the mind is naturally silent, when the heart is open, when love is, then only is the actual.

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Mon, 11 Dec 2017 #3
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 634 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
When the mind is naturally silent, when the heart is open, when love is, then only is the actual.

Maybe it would be interesting to explore the connection between silence and reality.

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Mon, 11 Dec 2017 #4
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 265 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Maybe it would be interesting to explore the connection between silence and reality.

Isn't looking for such a connection exactly what K warned is "futile and a waste of time?" Isn't it up to each individual to look for themselves into stillness? There really is no connection at all between silence and reality just as there is no path to what is right under your feet.

What we can see and discuss is how the occupied mind deals with reality: Most of us trample on the flower, we carve our initials in the bark heedless of the damage to the tree, we spread violence around with self justification. When you see the violence all around you, when you see it in yourself, then if you really care, you have to stop, you have to pay attention.

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Mon, 11 Dec 2017 #5
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 634 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Isn't looking for such a connection exactly what K warned is "futile and a waste of time?

Idiot, you talk about silence being important but really, no offence intended, anybody can say that. Indeed, they frequently do.

idiot ? wrote:
There really is no connection at all between silence and reality just as there is no path to what is right under your feet.

Well, not really much chance of any discussion or exploration when somebody comes out with statements like that. It seems you already know the truth. Thanks for passing on your view of reality though.

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Mon, 11 Dec 2017 #6
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 265 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
you talk about silence being important but really, no offence intended, anybody can say that.

Well, we are here to discuss K and he said silence was important. So naturally the matter comes up. Don't you think it is important, too?

Sean Hen wrote:
Well, not really much chance of any discussion or exploration when somebody comes out with statements like that. It seems you already know the truth. Thanks for passing on your view of reality though.

I don't have any view of reality at all. The real is the real. What do points of view have to do with it?

Anyway, if you think I'm a mistaken know-it-all, that is fine. There certainly are plenty of those on kinfonet. So if you consider me one, too, that's okay.

It's certainly true that K asked investigatory questions and took a LONG time to consider different angles. I just blurt stuff out. But please point out where I'm mistaken or where your understanding leads you differently. And we can talk about it.

On the other hand, if you feel I'm hopeless and don't want to discuss with me, that's okay, too.

Nevertheless, we apparently agree that concerns that K brought up are vital and need to be looked into carefully. I am thankful for that.

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Mon, 11 Dec 2017 #7
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 634 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Well, we are here to discuss K and he said silence was important. So naturally the matter comes up. Don't you think it is important, too?

Yes, of course I agree that it's important. In my previous point I was suggesting exploring why it's important and perhaps looking into why this is connected to "reality". You didn't seem to think much of my suggestion though.

idiot ? wrote:
On the other hand, if you feel I'm hopeless and don't want to discuss with me, that's okay, too.

No, I don't feel you're hopeless at all. I often find your posts very interesting.

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Mon, 11 Dec 2017 #8
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 634 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It's certainly true that K asked investigatory questions and took a LONG time to consider different angles. I just blurt stuff out.

Well yes, I think that's maybe why I found your previous post a bit blunt. All the looking at different angles and questioning by K often seemed to throw light on the subject at hand and led up to some kind of conclusion that made a lot of sense. The constant exploration and questioning seemed to give freshness to the discussions wouldn't you agree?

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Mon, 11 Dec 2017 #9
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 265 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
The constant exploration and questioning seemed to give freshness to the discussions wouldn't you agree?

To be honest, I find them excessively long, going over the same things in slightly different ways. Quite often a very interesting point comes up and K says that the they'll get back to that and they never do. So no, I think he could have been a lot more to the point.

He liked to read mysteries, which have all kinds of red herrings and distracting asides. And he liked to take listeners along similar zig zag routes, saving for the end insights he knew all along.

Some of his very best books are EDITED by Rajagopal, the very person with whom he was at war later in life. In those books, there is less meandering and more direct expression.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 11 Dec 2017.

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Mon, 11 Dec 2017 #10
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 265 posts in this forum Offline

Anyway, maybe I can elaborate on: "There really is no connection at all between silence and reality just as there is no path to what is right under your feet."

In the K quote of the day we're discussing, he said, "Let us concern ourselves with what is the necessary condition that will reveal the real."

Now if one of us had said that, chances are good that someone would latch onto the word "condition" and insist that we need to be free of conditioning. Or someone would say that trying to find a condition is a method. Luckily, K said it rather than one of us so we can bypass all that. But still! We should consider how we subtly treat K as an authority and discredit each other sometimes, perhaps without even realizing it.

So what does K mean by "necessary condition that will reveal the real?" To me, it's obvious! When the mind is attentive, engaged, relaxed, and above all not busy with its concerns about this and that, BAM! Reality is. When the mind is busy with thought, it is coloring over reality. It is vital to see this for yourself, yes?

But we have to be careful. Is it really that we go about creating a silent mind and then we see reality? Is it a process of becoming? Or is it rather that there is no separation between the silent mind and what is? The clear open heart is none other than the totality that fills it! It is not a becoming but what actually is!

So I'm sorry if I was too abrupt saying, " There really is no connection at all between silence and reality just as there is no path to what is right under your feet." We have to be careful not to say we set up silence so that reality comes into being. Rather, there is a unity of open heartedness and the whole of reality.

I suppose this is either clear or not depending upon whether you have looked into it and discovered for yourself something more or less the same. This is a matter you have to check out deeply for yourself.

Does this communicate better? Can we discuss this more?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 11 Dec 2017.

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Mon, 11 Dec 2017 #11
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 265 posts in this forum Offline

So what does K say is the "necessary condition?" You can read the larger context for the quote here: http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teach...

In that, K says, "So what is the inward condition necessary to be oneself, to be spontaneous? The first necessary inward condition is that the habit-forming mechanism must cease. What is the motive power behind this mechanism?

"Before we answer this we must first find out whether our thoughts and feelings are the result of mere habit, traditions, and are following ideals and principles. Most of us, if we really think about it intelligently, honestly, will see that our thoughts and feelings usually spring from various standardized patterns, whether they be ideals or principles."

You can decide for yourself if K's "necessary condition" is different from what I said in the above posts (before I read his full context) , or if they are essentially the same.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 11 Dec 2017.

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Mon, 11 Dec 2017 #12
Thumb_k2 Ken D United States 42 posts in this forum Offline

"What are my rules and principles of life? None." Krishnamurti

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Tue, 12 Dec 2017 #13
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 634 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
So what does K mean by "necessary condition that will reveal the real?" To me, it's obvious! When the mind is attentive, engaged, relaxed, and above all not busy with its concerns about this and that, BAM! Reality is. When the mind is busy with thought, it is coloring over reality. It is vital to see this for yourself, yes?

Yes, I see what you mean here. A bird is singing. That's real enough. However, I'm too lost in my thoughts to hear it or I'm only vaguely aware of it. When I'm attentive and my mind is silent I hear the birdsong.

idiot ? wrote:
But we have to be careful. Is it really that we go about creating a silent mind and then we see reality? Is it a process of becoming? Or is it rather that there is no separation between the silent mind and what is? The clear open heart is none other than the totality that fills it! It is not a becoming but what actually is!

Yes, well expressed. Maybe the open heart is like an open window. When the window is closed you can never feel the breeze.

idiot ? wrote:
Does this communicate better? Can we discuss this more?

Yes and yes.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Tue, 12 Dec 2017.

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Thu, 14 Dec 2017 #14
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 634 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It's certainly true that K asked investigatory questions and took a LONG time to consider different angles

Did K do this because he saw the importance of "freedom from the known"? I think the questioning and looking at things from different angles was important in that it was a way to dismantle the known. K often spoke about the importance of exploring together and putting aside everything we know about a topic before going into it. His approach may have seemed slow at times but wouldn't you agree that you often got the feeling of freshness, newness and discovery in his dialogues? His seeming ability to discover things for the first time over and over again was something that he was able to share with his listeners. Isn't constant questioning one of the only ways we can get away from the known?

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Thu, 14 Dec 2017 #15
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
K often spoke about the importance of exploring together

He, in fact, spoke of the enquiry being a journey one must take alone.

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Thu, 14 Dec 2017 #16
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
Isn't constant questioning one of the only ways we can get away from the known?

Constant questioning is the known.

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Thu, 14 Dec 2017 #17
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
putting aside everything we know about a topic before going into it.

Can you indicate a place on these forums where this is happening Sean?

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Thu, 14 Dec 2017 #18
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 634 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Constant questioning is the known.

Does this statement come from the known Richard?

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Thu, 14 Dec 2017 #19
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 634 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Can you indicate a place on these forums where this is happening Sean?

I don't know Richard. Perhaps it (putting aside everything we know about a topic before going into it) happens to some extent at certain points. Do you think this never happens here? That none of us ever do this at all?

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Thu, 14 Dec 2017 #20
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
Do you think this never happens here?

Even if it does, how does that affect us here and now?

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Thu, 14 Dec 2017 #21
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
That none of us ever do this at all?

Sean, have you actually read any of the "QOTD" that have been referenced? Go back and read the last 5 or 6 days worth of QOTD. K is answering your question.

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Thu, 14 Dec 2017 #22
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
Does this statement come from the known Richard?

Maybe, may be not. Does/can the known/knowledge contain factual/useful information?

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Fri, 15 Dec 2017 #23
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 634 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Sean, have you actually read any of the "QOTD" that have been referenced? Go back and read the last 5 or 6 days worth of QOTD. K is answering your question.

Richard, I think if we're serious about discussing something then there needs to be as much clarity as possible. I don't know what you're talking about here. It seems that you're saying, "You don't know what Krishnamurti is saying." That would imply that you understand and I don't. You seem to be under the impression that you have an understanding that I do not. I don't think that saying "You don't understand" is not much of a position to have in a discussion. Indeed, what comes across is arrogance. Of course, this may be deliberate. Many people seem to find entertainment in winding up others and seeing their reaction.

Curiously, your position in posts 20 and 21 seems to change. In post number 20 you seem to be open to the possibility that people are sometimes able to put aside previous knowledge before discussing a topic while in post 21 you tell me to go and read Krishnamurti quotes.

For the sake of clarity, can you tell me what you are actually trying to say?

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Fri, 15 Dec 2017 #24
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 634 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Constant questioning is the known.

I have to admit that I do rather enjoy riddles.

Is it the questioning that is the known or the constancy in the questioning that makes it the known? Are there many different types of questions and are all of them "the known"? Richard, I might ask you, "Do you live in Ohio?". Would that count as "the known" or would I have to constantly ask it for it to count as such? I don't know where you live. I only know your name here is "Richard Head" which is almost certainly not your real name. Where you live in unknown to me. By asking "Do you live in Ohio?" I show curiosity and interest. Krishnamurti surely indulged in constant questioning. Was that "the known"? Or is it only "the known" when people other than Krishnamurti do it?

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