Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Choiceless self-awareness


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Sat, 06 Jan 2018 #31
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5325 posts in this forum Offline

First Sean, thanks for providing the link to a segment of K's 1976 talk in Switzerland. I finally watched just now.

Secondly, I would like to comment on the word technique. According to the English dictionary it means: a skillful or efficient way of doing or achieving something. It is a pattern that we learn and repeat. Techniques, it may be argued, are necessary. A good automobile driver develops a good technique and so on with all of the other physical things we must do each day to live.

But what happens when we develop a technique to become more "spiritually aware"? In the video you provided K said, basically, to forget things like breathing exercises and asanas which one learns in yoga.*

Exercise for the body is good but learning a technique to attain greater spiritual awareness, for example, is the self wanting to become something greater, to change, to achieve something. Does this kind of activity lead to a "selfless" state that K spoke of or does it reinforce the self, expand the self?

I'm just trying to get the discussion started on technique and what I have written above could be completely wrong.

K might have meant something entirely different when he spoke of technique.

*Doing Yoga or tai chi or other exercises to maintain ones health and strength is not a wrong thing to do. I'm not talking about this.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 06 Jan 2018.

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Sun, 07 Jan 2018 #32
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 444 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
It is a pattern that we learn and repeat...But what happens when we develop a technique to become more "spiritually aware"?

Jack Pine has indicated two very important aspects of technique:

-repetitive pattern

-intentionality

As he points out we need technique for daily activity, such as driving. We need to condition ourselves to have skill at certain practical activities. But is meditation/awareness an activity that benefits from conditioning and refinement? Certainly many would say yes: It is a process of self improvement, they would say, and over time you become a better meditator. But K clearly says no: If you constantly bring the old (your repetitive pattern, your conditioning) to the new (this vital fresh moment right now) then you paper over, you color reality rather than awaken to it. The repetitive pattern, your crutch thought to return to the mantra or to the breath or whatever, is bringing the old to the new, is bringing the past (which is thought) to the present (which thought cannot touch).

Now why do we take up technique? To become more "spiritually aware?" That could be one reason. To have intention means that there is something about the present that we feel is inadequate, that we want to change, to modify, and so we do something about it, and take up some technique that will make us better. Again, in practical matters, bettering yourself can be useful, learning can be beneficial. But with respect to awareness, there needs to be unlearning, setting aside the past, the conditioning. If we are so quick to want to change what is for the better, we have already taken our eye off of what is and are looking to an imagined future.

So we see how repetitive pattern and intentionality strengthen rather than dissolve the self. Should we discuss these aspects of technique further? What else can we go into about technique? What about indirection, the feeling of one level removed? Doesn't technique involve a pulling back, a kind of detachment? Perhaps we can go into that, too?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 07 Jan 2018.

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Sun, 07 Jan 2018 #33
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 444 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Is there an awareness that meditation is happening? If yes, the meditation ends, if not, there is no consciousness of meditation at all. So, what's the point ?

If you're fine with the violence and the cruelty in the world, then there is no point. But if you see the division and harm that we do to each other, the strife that we spread around, on the level of personal spats up to full on war, then the urge to investigate these questions, to find out if something can transform the crisis of perpetual conflict, will bring you to inquiry into meditation.

The brain thinks that it can wrap around meditation, that it can understand meditation. But can thought grasp something quite beyond it?

Your questions are excellent ones: Does meditation end when there is awareness that meditation is happening, when there is a division between meditator and meditation? And is there a kind of meditation where this division does not take place? And if so, and if it leaves no trace, is there any value in it?

But we have to be careful not to make assumptions and intellectual speculations. Meditation, if it is to have any real meaning, must be explored for yourself. One thing you might notice is how rapidly there can be a shift from self consciousness, to inquiry, to not knowing, to ???? All within the space of a fraction of a second. Is ending and beginning going on at lightning speed? Is this relevant?

We can take up your questions in discussion. But even more important is to explore meditation for yourself actually.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 07 Jan 2018.

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Sun, 07 Jan 2018 #34
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5325 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Is there an awareness that meditation is happening? If yes, the meditation ends, if not, there is no consciousness of meditation at all. So, what's the point ?

I don't know you so I can't be certain what your feeling is behind your above statement. But it reads like you are saying, "What's in it for me"? If I don't get pleasure from being selfless why do it? You can see the problem there I'm sure.

The whole world is asking, "What is in it for me"?, and it's destroying this planet, the environment, the social fabric and so on.

Also you used two words in the above quote. They are; "awareness" and "consciousness". Are these two words synonymous or do they mean something very different?

If, as K has pointed out, the center, the self, is the accumulation of experience and knowledge, and therefore the past, are we really living at all? K pointed out that only when there is not the slightest trace of the "me", the past, can there be full awareness of the present. The past, the me, and the present can never meet.

Awareness is the present without anything, the consciousness, to record it, to remember it, to want to experience the pleasure of some experience again and again. When the consciousness registers something then it becomes part of the center, reinforces the center. Awareness, as K used the word, doesn't register anything. It is the eternal present. Maybe another word for awareness is life, living.

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Sun, 07 Jan 2018 #35
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5325 posts in this forum Offline

I assume some of you have been reading the Daily Quotes. In the past few days, especially, they have been particularly clear and direct windows into understanding what K was pointing out his whole life.

The one today, Jan 7, is especially relevant to what we have been discussing in this thread.

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Mon, 08 Jan 2018 #36
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 732 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
What about indirection, the feeling of one level removed? Doesn't technique involve a pulling back, a kind of detachment? Perhaps we can go into that, too?

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "indirection, the feeling of one level removed"? This would be interesting to explore.

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Mon, 08 Jan 2018 #37
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 732 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Awareness is the present without anything, the consciousness, to record it, to remember it, to want to experience the pleasure of some experience again and again. When the consciousness registers something then it becomes part of the center, reinforces the center. Awareness, as K used the word, doesn't register anything. It is the eternal present. Maybe another word for awareness is life, living.

Very well expressed.

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Tue, 09 Jan 2018 #38
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 444 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "indirection, the feeling of one level removed"?

Whether or not you use a technique of meditation, when you are aware of the working of your own mind, you notice how we psychologically divide ourselves. I seem to have characteristics, including thoughts, feelings, etc. and I seem to have a step-back observer of those feelings. When beginning meditation, either with or without a technique, most people notice how busy their brain is, endlessly thinking about this and that, and also how there seems to be a silent observer of it all. And certain techniques of meditation expand the watcher, the silent observer.

I'm not saying that noticing this is in any way wrong. It's important to watch the mind and see how it works.

Now obviously both the watcher and the watched are your brain activity. And famously, K says, "the observer is the observed," as well as its corollaries: "the seer is the seen," "the thinker is the thought," and "the controller is the controlled." The last of these is relevant to the use of technique because inevitably technique involves control. To control the wild, monkey-like brain, some kind of technique is used rein it in, to unify it. It might be chanting a mantra mentally or counting the breath or scanning the body for sensation. There are many techniques but they all involve control, and therefore there is a split, psychologically, between the controller and the controlled. However, the controller is the controlled. The artificial split is brain gamesmanship. And eventually the suppressed busts back out.

The technique meditator will either give up or soldier on. If the latter, in time the mind may become more unified in a forced way, but it is unlikely to become open and loving.

Does this makes sense? Again, it's much more important to check these things out for yourself in your own mind, seeing how it works, seeing how it might fool itself.

We have discussed repetitive pattern, intentionality, and step back division of an observer/controller from an observed/controlled with respect to meditation technique. Please question or challenge anything we have discussed so far.

Another problematic issue with meditation technique is exclusion. Maybe we can talk about that next. Do meditation techniques involve exclusion?

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Tue, 09 Jan 2018 #39
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 444 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Awareness is the present without anything, the consciousness, to record it, to remember it, to want to experience the pleasure of some experience again and again. When the consciousness registers something then it becomes part of the center, reinforces the center. Awareness, as K used the word, doesn't register anything. It is the eternal present. Maybe another word for awareness is life, living.

Then how was K able to go for a walk in awareness and later write down in his notebook what happened?

I'm playing devil's advocate here a little because for the most part I agree with what you have written. There is certainly no holding on, no bolstering of the self with experience, and no wanting to recreate experience. But is there really no memory? K talks about "no residue," no stickiness to the memory, but does the natural ability of the brain to remember cease? Of course, memory can never capture totality.

What do you say? I'm just gently pushing for us to clarify.

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Wed, 10 Jan 2018 #40
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5325 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Then how was K able to go for a walk in awareness and later write down in his notebook what happened?

This is a good question and one that I think should be explored. I don't have an answer but I'm willing to look at it with you and anyone else who would care to join the discussion.

I'll start off since you asked me. K often discussed not reacting/registering experiences. Not reacting in any way to what is being experienced.

When you react to something it is from memory; knowledge and experience. When you react or judge something you classify that experience. This is the center wanting to understand the experience by comparing it with previous experiences/knowledge.

When you do this comparison or evaluation you are making the new experience relate to the old. If one insults you or flatters you or causes you to react in any way then what happens? Maybe you feel angry, or you want to get back at the person or you feel elated. In various ways reacting, thinking about it, adds to the image you already have of yourself, your consciousness, your ego.

Is it possible to simply be aware of what is happening around one and not registering, not judging or comparing the present to the past? Is it possible to be aware of the beauty of the earth, or a piece of music, a poem without the experience becoming part of the center? Is there an awareness of life without it adding to the center? Somehow not becoming part of the ego but nevertheless an image that remains in the brain? Obviously the only way to answer this is to be intensely aware of your own thought process moment by moment.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 10 Jan 2018.

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Wed, 10 Jan 2018 #41
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5325 posts in this forum Offline

The above statement may be a little confusing. I think to summarize I am asking if you can experience something, a rainbow like the one we saw over the Ojai Valley yesterday after a very welcomed rain, without identifying with it personally? Without making an image of it that is stored in the consciousness?

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Wed, 10 Jan 2018 #42
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 732 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
When you react to something it is from memory; knowledge and experience. When you react or judge something you classify that experience. This is the center wanting to understand the experience by comparing it with previous experiences/knowledge.

Yes, this is a good explanation of how conditioning distorts our perception of what is going on around us in the present. Memory seems to play a key role in this.

idiot ? wrote:
Then how was K able to go for a walk in awareness and later write down in his notebook what happened?

This question took us into new territory as far as I'm concerned. Can the memory recall periods when one is totally present and thought is absent? Apparently it can, as Krishnamurti describes walks and incidents when he was, we assume, fully aware and fully present.

Jack Pine wrote:
Obviously the only way to answer this is to be intensely aware of your own thought process moment by moment.

Reading a statement like the one above is, in my view, helpful. I think it is important to discuss these issues otherwise it is easy to be totally unaware of one's thought process.

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Thu, 11 Jan 2018 #43
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 288 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Then how was K able to go for a walk in awareness and later write down in his notebook what happened?

K. suggested ( in Tradition and Revolution ) that the brain record all the time, that the brain is a recording machine. If one look at what happened one hour ago , a couple of days ago, or years ago, one can see that many things are stored in the brain as memories. Whether the recording is necessary , or appropriate, is another story, but , though we are not conscious of that the brain have record things, of that phenomenon, the simple observation goes in that way. What happen next ? Is it that those memories are reinforce or sink in oblivion, as being necessary or unnecessary ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Thu, 11 Jan 2018.

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Thu, 11 Jan 2018 #44
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
Understanding of K's message will always shine through from what you say here.

Seriously though Sean, I would just suggest that a good many of us (the human mind) have the tendency to over-estimate our capacity for clear seeing. Many Christians I have met say that Gods message "will always shine through". The Beatles message that they want to hold your hand, always shown through. Elvis's "you're the cutest jailbird I ever did see".....ew. Etc.. and so forth. We like to imagine this shining of a message we want to hear.

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Thu, 11 Jan 2018 #45
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 732 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Seriously though Sean, I would just suggest that a good many of us (the human mind) have the tendency to over-estimate our capacity for clear seeing.

Exactly! That's why one is always on dodgy ground saying, "I have understood but you haven't."

richard head wrote:
The Beatles message that they want to hold your hand, always shown through

The verb "shine" is a tricky one to conjugate. The Beatles message may have always shined or even shone through but, as I have shown, couldn't have "shown through". I'll let it be at that.

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Fri, 12 Jan 2018 #46
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 288 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Is it possible to be aware of the beauty of the earth, or a piece of music, a poem without the experience becoming part of the center? Is there an awareness of life without it adding to the center? Somehow not becoming part of the ego but nevertheless an image that remains in the brain? Obviously the only way to answer is to be intensely aware of your own thought process moment by moment.

Those are fundamentals questions, with no ready answers, as you say.

Jack Pine wrote:
Obviously the only way to answer this is to be intensely aware of your own thought process moment by moment.

Which could be the beginning, or the door, to genuine, true meditation .

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Fri, 12 Jan 2018.

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Fri, 12 Jan 2018 #47
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
That's why one is always on dodgy ground saying, "I have understood but you haven't."

Let's see here, posts # 14 27 29 32 33 35 36, Etc.., all in essence are saying "I know and I will tell you all about it". Yet you refuse to point to the "dodgy" ground beneath. I don't post anything like those but you stick that label on me, curious.

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Fri, 12 Jan 2018 #48
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
The verb "shine" is a tricky one

You used it to demonstrate that there is clear seeing by the mind. That the average person can see clearly "what is" when confronted with the "Truth". I was simply pointing out that the mind generally imagines that it is seeing/understanding something special.

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Fri, 12 Jan 2018 #49
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 732 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
You used it to demonstrate that there is clear seeing by the mind. That the average person can see clearly "what is" when confronted with the "Truth".

Richard, you recently asked me if I had actually read the recent Krishnamurti quotes of the day with the implication that I had not understood them but that you had. You seemed to be attributing clarity to yourself and confusion to me. Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Fri, 12 Jan 2018.

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Fri, 12 Jan 2018 #50
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 732 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Another problematic issue with meditation technique is exclusion. Maybe we can talk about that next. Do meditation techniques involve exclusion?

Could you expand on this please?

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Fri, 12 Jan 2018 #51
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 732 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Let's see here, posts # 14 27 29 32 33 35 36, Etc.., all in essence are saying "I know and I will tell you all about it". Yet you refuse to point to the "dodgy" ground beneath

Richard, posts 14, 27, 29, 32 and 36 were written by Jack Pine. Posts 33 and 35 were written by idiot ?. Can you just give me an example of a part of any of those posts that fell into the category of "I know and I will tell you all about it." I ask this out of genuine curiosity and am not trying to score points. I just think it's interesting that your reaction and my reaction to these posts is so different and is worth looking into.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Fri, 12 Jan 2018.

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Fri, 12 Jan 2018 #52
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5325 posts in this forum Offline

Sean your question above is reasonable and understandable. Personally after reading #49 I decided not to react to it in anyway. This thread has been one of the few that seems to really be trying to get at the heart of some matters of which K spoke. I think it has been very interesting with some insightful and serious responses.

To inquire requires that we keep our egos out of our responses. We have plenty of examples of how acrimonious assaults on each other have worked in the past. It destroys the discussion and leaves people feeling bitter and confused. Personally, I'm done with that.

To everyone: Please let's continue with the discussion without one ego attacking another. Let's respect each other and stay focused on understanding and discovering and communicating together.

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Fri, 12 Jan 2018 #53
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
I just think it's interesting that your reaction and my reaction to these posts is so different and is worth looking into.

I wish I had more words to help clarify things between us. If we, by now, have no clear understanding between what we see here on Kinfonet, I fear more words is not the solution to our confusion.

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Fri, 12 Jan 2018 #54
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
I'm done with that.

Anyone and everyone whom you have attack over the years accepts your apology.

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Fri, 12 Jan 2018 #55
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
Richard, you recently asked me if I had actually read the recent Krishnamurti quotes of the day with the implication that I had not understood them but that you had.

No insult in that. If you had/have understood something fundamental to the enquiry and I seemed to be struggling with my comprehension, I would hope that you might give me some hints/pointers.

These same discussions have been ongoing for several years without movement. Doesn't it seem like we might try a new/different direction?

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Sat, 13 Jan 2018 #56
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5325 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
idiot ? wrote:
Another problematic issue with meditation technique is exclusion. Maybe we can talk about that next. Do meditation techniques involve exclusion?

There are no techniques for meditation in the sense that K used the word. Meditation is the emptying of the mind of all traces of thought which leaves only awareness. When there is no thought all the energy of the mind is free and aware. If there was a "technique" then thought would be involved and you can see that that just doesn't work.

Why do we have to keep debating this? K made it very clear what meditation is.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 13 Jan 2018.

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Sat, 13 Jan 2018 #57
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 732 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
This thread has been one of the few that seems to really be trying to get at the heart of some matters of which K spoke. I think it has been very interesting with some insightful and serious responses.

I agree completely.

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Sat, 13 Jan 2018 #58
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 732 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
These same discussions have been ongoing for several years without movement. Doesn't it seem like we might try a new/different direction?

What does this new/different direction consist of Richard?

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Sat, 13 Jan 2018 #59
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 732 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Anyone and everyone whom you have attack over the years accepts your apology.

Can we please not go down this road?

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Sat, 13 Jan 2018 #60
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 288 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Your questions are excellent ones: Does meditation end when there is awareness that meditation is happening, when there is a division between meditator and meditation? And is there a kind of meditation where this division does not take place? And if so, and if it leaves no trace, is there any value in it?

If one is aware of the division between meditator and meditation, then isn't it what meditation is ? Experience, according to K. is going through, passer au travers, it leave no trace because there is no goal. Seeing the division is in itself a state of experience without division, is it ? Is there any value in it? Is the end of conflict in the observation of any value ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sat, 13 Jan 2018.

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