Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Was Buddha's sathipattana meditation originally same as what K taught?


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Thu, 08 Mar 2018 #1
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

Four Foundations of Mindfulness

Four foundations of mindfulness is an important part mentioned in the Buddhist doctrine.It is namely -1) Kayanupassana- Awareness of the body. 2) Vedananupassana- Awareness of pain . 3) Chittanupassana- Awareness of thought. & 4) Dhammanupassana -Awareness of mental phenomena.It is stated as great Buddha’s liberation way & thus the most important part of the teachings in achieving psychological freedom. Awareness of these four is called ‘sathipattana meditation’ through which the blissful state of nirvana is reached.

Thus what was originally meant as sathipattana meditation by the great Buddha becomes paramount to students of Buddhism & others concerned with ending suffering.Late Dr.E.W.Adhikaram who was an erudite pali scholar & who was also the founder chairman of the J. Krishnamurti Center, Sri Lanka, once told the writer that he studied pali for the sole purpose of reading all the Buddhist books to find out what is mentioned in the book with most evidence to be the great Buddha’s words. He had traveled to India also for this purpose & said that Buddha had talked about 'sihiya’ only & added that it is the same as what Krishnamurti taught as 'awareness’.It is believed that the great Buddha had said that if sihiya(awareness) is maintained for a few years to all the activities of a person- both physical & mental- the person attains liberation.

Hence many mindful practices have now sprung up as meditation & even sathipattana meditation is taught as a practice. This article aims to briefly look at the prevailing explanation of four foundations of mindfulness & also to view it in the light of J. Krishnamurti’s teachings as he was widely regarded as the greatest sage of modern times who stressed that ego is the cause of suffering & is purely a mental construction without any factual validity which is pivotal to the great Buddha’s teachings too.

In today’s meditation centers sathipattana meditation is taught as a system of concentration. Kayanupassana or awareness of the body is taught as the awareness of the body posture. You are asked to contemplate on the contact points of the body on the chair repeatedly-if you are seated or of inhalation & exhalation. Awareness of pain or vedananupassana is taught as awareness of body pain. For example if you have a painful knee you contemplate repeatedly on the pain in the knee. The other two are too practiced in the same manner which is basically contemplation of one of the four.Now repeated contemplation is not possible unless the mind is holding on to the procedure it has to follow. Which means the mind is anchored to some past knowledge according to which it is carrying out its observation. This would mean the mind is not fully in the present. Thus it cannot be meditation because meditation is all about ending the past & living fully in the present. When it is all the time functioning anchored to the past as in contemplation of some object, freeing the mind of the past is not in contention because the activity is anchored to the past.

Studying J.Krishnamurti’s teachings the writer is now of the view that the original explanation of the great Buddha’s four foundations of mindfulness could be as follows-
Awareness of body or Kayanupassana can be awareness of the outer world we perceive due to the physical body. That is to be aware of what we see with the eye, what we hear with the ear, with the mouth etc., etc. So this is simply sensory perception.Then awareness of pain would be awareness of sensation(this is generally described as awareness of feeling-pleasant, unpleasant or neutral). The third stage of awareness is described as awareness of different states which is actually repulsion or like or neutrality to the sensation. Thus this is really awareness of thought which is the response to sensation. The fourth stage of mindfulness which is awareness of mental phenomena must be the awareness of states like anger, lust, fear, sorrow etc., which are the outcome due to the response of thought as in 3rd stage.

Now this would be being aware of the sequence of responses beginning with sensory perception,then to sensation & moving next to the response of thought till sorrow is borne at the last stage. Thus sathipattana meditation must be following this sequence without sticking to one & understanding the process of operation. Therefore awareness is constantly following what is taking place at the active moment. Such awareness is not anchored to the past & therefore the mind is free to move & make discoveries of the causes of the process of responses of the mind which result in sorrow. These discoveries seen with the light of awareness will be insight that ends sorrow.

However as we begin to observe the responses of the mind the responses will be so swift that we will not be able to see what takes place step by step beginning from sensory perception- which is awareness of the body- till we experience a state of mind in the fourth stage which is suffering. At the beginning we will only see, be able to be aware of, a state of anger or fear or conflict or some form of suffering which is the last stage of the sequence.Then if we sustain awareness, watch this state of anger etc., with none responsive passive awareness, the mind will begin to calm down as the mind is not struggling with the state experienced.This must be actually ‘samatha’-calming down of the mind before penetration.It is awareness itself that achieves this calmness, not some different form of concentration.Concentration is thought battling thought & any calmness achieved must be really dullness. Then with swifter awareness the state of suffering as anger etc., can be seen before the mind gives it the word 'anger’. Without the word brain will not be able to trigger past memories of similar states nor will the brain be able to hold onto that experience by recording it. Therefore it will drop away. Moving further it will then be possible to see the thought that causes that response anger. This is then chittanupassana , the 3rd stage. Then with still greater awareness the origin of thought may be perceived.That is, the image we build of another is still part of us & not anything different.This difference which is separation has been our illusion.& is the cause of the mind building images.Then having dismantled the image builder, with greater space of mind as the mind uncovers subtler energy insight into the nature of the ‘me’ or the ‘self’ may be possible ending suffering.

This would mean insight must be awakened through awareness & not drilled into the mind by repetition or contemplation that everything is impermanent, that another is like you etc.,etc. What can be drilled or contemplated upon repeatedly is something we already know & that cannot be real insight for then we cannot have suffering to begin with if we had that knowledge.Nor must it be possible to inculcate love. It has to be a state that prevails naturally if all animosity, if all self concern,all ill will, is ended.Thus sathipattana meditation must be the movement of awareness untainted by the past awakening insight & freeing the mind of past entanglements.

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Thu, 08 Mar 2018 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 350 posts in this forum Offline

Is there some essential commonality between Buddhism and K teaching?

This is quite a difficult question because any answer implies a profound understanding of Buddhism and of K teachings. No one except K himself, now dead, is really authoritative on K teaching. And there are all kinds of conflicting Buddhist authorities representing various Buddhist factions. Nevertheless, it is possible to look simply and directly at the question and say some things.

Obviously Buddhism has things that K does not: the four Noble Truths, the sangha (meaning membership in a group), rituals, detailed methods of meditation, etc. And it has things like karma and rebirth that can be understood in different ways, that at the very least are not central to K teaching if they are part of it at all.

K, too, has a background that he to one degree or another threw off: his training in Theosophy, which included a lot of Buddhism mixed with other things, and which involved his preparation to be the Maitreya, the future Buddha.

And obviously K spoke out against spiritual teachers (which are the norm in Buddhism), against division according to religion, and so on. A very important part of K is rejection of spiritual tradition and all of its baggage. To inquire with complete freedom from the past.

That said, why should K be someone unique in all of human history to have discovered something no one else ever had? Obviously, others have explored meditation, awareness, life and made deep discoveries.

K advocated "self knowledge," following and attending to every thought throughout the day. How is this in any way different from Buddhist "mindfulness," other than in name?

K pointed to awareness without self, without perception from a center. This pointing is in Buddhism, too.

Reality is reality, whether discovered by Buddha, K, or you. But then it gets clothed in various beliefs, traditions, and practices. In many ways, K teaching is free of many entanglements of earlier understandings. However, people interested in K frequently fall into their own trappings, misunderstandings, and self-deceptions, often stuck in the intellectual rather than the directly experienced.

So we have to be careful about syncretism, a fancy word that means claiming essential sameness at the expense of what are very real differences. At the same time, it is up to you and me to find out what is really true, to disentangle from the past, and to see that what actually is is free of ownership by anyone.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 08 Mar 2018.

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Fri, 09 Mar 2018 #3
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

Ok. Thank you. Intelligent comment by Idiot.... ha ha..

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Fri, 09 Mar 2018 #4
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 350 posts in this forum Offline

Is sathipattana meditation samatha or vipassana? Or does it predate this division and encompass both? Some Buddhists divide meditation into two kinds: samatha, which is about concentration and leads to unified mind, and vipassana, which is about attention to whatever comes up, insight, and leads to open mind. The 8 fold path, in the 4th noble truth, itself makes the distinction.

K questions any kind of meditation that involves a split between controller and controlled, which would include samatha. Often samatha instruction is given like this: bring the attention to the breath. When you notice thinking has carried the mind away from the breath, let go of the thoughts and gently return to the breath. Do this again and again.

We have a controller set an intention. The breath following is begun with the controller. The uncontrolled begins to think and after a while becomes aware of the thinking. The controller gently returns to the breath. The "gentle" part is intended to lessen the control aspect. But it is there throughout.

K considers such divided, controlled, intentional meditation to only lead to an unnatural, forced kind of mind. A throttling or squelching of thought.

K also never makes division by skandha. He doesn't separate out attention to the breath, the body sensations, the emotions, the thoughts, or awareness of awareness. He talks about awareness of the whole, with all the senses at once, without division.

So the kinds of Buddhist meditation closest to K are going to be mindfulness and inquiry.

As far as sila, or morality, K is not usually specific about not killing, not stealing, not having improper sex, not lying, and not becoming intoxicated. But he does talk about "getting your house in order." Clearly, order and awareness in relationship are essential and real morality, not imposed morality, has its basis in caring, love.

So, to sum up, Buddhism has all kinds of enumerated, specific approaches, whereas K invites you to look into matters for yourself with total freedom, unencumbered by the past and any preconceptions.

Buddhism is a path, a cultivating. For K, truth is a pathless land.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 09 Mar 2018.

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Fri, 09 Mar 2018 #5
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

Sathipattana meditation is vipassana. Samantha is supposedly concentration.
I suggested in my post(it's an article)that it's one, in vipassana itself.
Dr.Walpola Rahula said in a discussion with K that Buddha's original teaching didn't have concentration!
I am posing the question whether the present form of Buddhism is a whole lot of distortions.
A very prominent monk once told me that Buddha clearly talked against worshipping which is a main part in present day Buddhist centers.

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Fri, 09 Mar 2018 #6
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 350 posts in this forum Offline

There was time when some felt that there was an original Christianity that was pure, that existed before all kinds of sectarian divisions occurred. Scholars now know that even in the earliest times there were conflicts and disputes.

Similarly, there is no written record of Buddha's teachings until hundreds of years after he supposedly lived. Was there an original pure teaching? Or were there many factions and competing ideas even in the earliest formation of Buddhism? I don't know.

You can read posts in this forum and quickly see K interested people at odds with each other. Even with K's expressions documented in transcriptions, videos, audio recordings, etc. people already have diverging ideas.

It may be fun to examine historical Buddhism or Christianity or whatever and see what kinds of early insights were discovered, but we also have to look at ourselves and the world now. There is tremendous conflict and suffering. What can you and I do about it? Thank you.

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Fri, 09 Mar 2018 #7
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

What can you & I do about the conflict & suffering? Of course investigate & do whatever we can to put it shortly.
By the way K did talk about seeing,sensation,thought & then the whole thing begins etc. The sequence of responses & reactions causing suffering.
By the way(about what to do) my article(do not no if it will go in) is a tiny attempt to get a few Buddhists to see points K raised.Maybe you can investigate it...

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Fri, 09 Mar 2018 #8
Thumb_k2 Ken D United States 72 posts in this forum Offline

"Religion has totally failed. It has no more meaning anymore, except to old ladies and slightly demented people." Krishnamurti

This post was last updated by Ken D Fri, 09 Mar 2018.

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Fri, 09 Mar 2018 #9
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Hello Ken, well I must say that I really liked that one...;-)

Dan ...........

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Fri, 09 Mar 2018 #10
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 350 posts in this forum Offline

Great cartoon, Ken. It made me laugh. And it's way more concise than my bloviation.

Interestingly, in this photo of Samdhong and K, who appears more alive and aware?

Hmm.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 09 Mar 2018.

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Sun, 11 Mar 2018 #11
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
What can you & I do about the conflict & suffering? Of course investigate & do whatever we can to put it shortly.
By the way K did talk about seeing,sensation,thought & then the whole thing begins etc. The sequence of responses & reactions causing suffering.
By the way(about what to do) my article(do not no if it will go in) is a tiny attempt to get a few Buddhists to see points K raised. Maybe you can investigate it...

Hello Kapila, we have not met since quite long ago...

To your first question if any answer comes from analyzing , thought , it won't solve anything at all in the matter of suffering conflict is my experience with that matter since childhood meaning that I am talking personally only but from experiment, not from analyzing.
"I" can't do anything about the sun well yet I can hide myself from it but it is still there...so I can't do anything about conflict-suffering yet "I" will try to run away from that..this image of course has some limits..

if k is right and so if this is right as such so is an absolute fact, there is no "I" and no suffering as two separates objects...there is some sort of "I" which state is suffering, where the dividing analyser sees two objects, itself and suffering..

this is why analyzing will never ever solve any of our mental problems..it just cannot...not its task!! not its program...for me it is just a tool with capacities in practical fields..and yet look at Hiroshima !! and all others man successes of that kind..

Since long ago, since I properly from time to time live what is behind suffering, when I have read once about the four noble I immediately felt: *yes this is it.
This is the first "step" and it must not be missed for at least one major reason: if this step is not taken, then the analyser will succeed to hide itself everywhere and all the time..including under the disguise of a wise man, a priest, and so on

well etc of course....

cheerio ..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sun, 11 Mar 2018.

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Tue, 13 Mar 2018 #12
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Dan,
Yes after a long time. Yes,I remember you always talked from personal experience. Great.
Yes,analysis is not the way.You are right it cannot solve anything. When we analyze the actual moment of experiencing the issue is no more there. It is an abstract we analyze.So it is actually a part of the analyzer. We can change or understand an issue only at the moment the issue is actually taking place. So analysis is a wastage of energy & time. Thanks Dan.

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Tue, 13 Mar 2018 #13
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
When we analyze the actual moment of experiencing the issue is no more there. It is an abstract we analyze.So it is actually a part of the analyzer. We can change or understand an issue only at the moment the issue is actually taking place. So analysis is a wastage of energy & time. Thanks Dan.

Hello

yes agreed with you here.
It seems to me that the Buddha has so precisely pointed to the 4 noble truth, and it is unmissable..I find sort of the exact same in the field of Noble Truth in k but it is more all over the place, yet it is there..

A pity we do not have the exact words of the Buddha of course, nothing we can do about it of course....how much time after his death are to be found some text about his words, so written by others then..??

Thanks to you too...I saw your article on the k ning site too...hope you are good

cheerio

Dan ...........

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Wed, 14 Mar 2018 #14
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

Yes Dan, you are right. K talks about these but it is all over the place.
By the way this is four foundations of mindfulness I discussed. Nevertheless 4 noble truths also appear in K's talks although 3rd is described as the way to end suffering.

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Wed, 14 Mar 2018 #15
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

Yes Dan I put it on K Ning too. Some Buddhists took part that time & I put it for them to read.
It was some 400yrs after Buddha's death his words were first written down if I am correct.

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Wed, 14 Mar 2018 #16
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
By the way this is four foundations of mindfulness I discussed. Nevertheless 4 noble truths also appear in K's talks although 3rd is described as the way to end suffering.

Hello again..well you are right to point this out...I will inquire a bit more into that out of interest, the interest coming out from you writing about actually; be honest my "knowledge" about the Buddha teaching is more than superficial, I was just totally stuck by the 4 nobles truth that I just stop my reading there...my source at the time was Valpola Rahula ..after some search in the matter i may or not go back to that..

in any case all the best to you ..

cheerio..

Dan ...........

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Wed, 14 Mar 2018 #17
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

Hullo Dan,
Wait. You do read K. So you don't have to read Buddhist text-my view.Of course for fun if you want that's fine. But plenty to do for fun!

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Thu, 15 Mar 2018 #18
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Hullo Dan,
Wait. You do read K. So you don't have to read Buddhist text-my view.Of course for fun if you want that's fine. But plenty to do for fun!

Hello Jayaraj..

thanks for the tip...yes it is for a sort of fun, a sort of interest, of curiosity which is simply there...from my own "moments" I am always curious to discover what others have to say in some specific fields...like from my moments within and behind suffering , I have intensively check it out in k's writing to find out that the correlation is obvious and by no means this is surprising as we all go through some sort of patterns even in such fields like suffering, sorrow..and this is why in time of heavy trouble with my own children we have managed to find out ways for them to go into and solve somehow one, or more problems ...but I do not listen to anyone and far from it of course...

I have checked your post and yes it is all over the place too in k ....

so what I referred to in your post was this

Kayanupassana- Awareness of the body. 2) Vedananupassana- Awareness of pain . 3) Chittanupassana- Awareness of thought. & 4) Dhammanupassana -Awareness of mental phenomena. It is stated as great Buddha’s liberation way & thus the most important part of the teachings in achieving psychological freedom. Awareness of these four is called ‘sathipattana meditation’ through which the blissful state of nirvana is reached.

one thing it seems to me that nirvana, by the way I have no problem with such word at all, nirvana is unreachable....in other words that means that thought have no access to it...whatever it does or does not....of course that would need long development in some talk but I will not do that now...

this makes the all shebang clearer in my view..

thanks for the sharing..;)

Dan ...........

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Sat, 17 Mar 2018 #19
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

Well Dan you have said that you don't want to go in to the question of nirvana at this moment.
Well if I briefly say something whatever thought has access to must be in the field of knowledge. Therefore limited. Therefore cannot be freedom.
So if we say nirvana is psychological freedom then all activity of thought cannot get to it.
See the implications! Then a practice cannot get to it!

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Sat, 17 Mar 2018 #20
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Well Dan you have said that you don't want to go in to the question of nirvana at this moment.
Well if I briefly say something whatever thought has access to must be in the field of knowledge. Therefore limited. Therefore cannot be freedom.
So if we say nirvana is psychological freedom then all activity of thought cannot get to it.
See the implications! Then a practice cannot get to it!

Hello Kapila

well this is another day ;-)

thanks for the valuable , for me, input here. Yes thought has only access to its memorised field of knowledge , here we talk about accumulated knowledge in the memory bank and it is passed on to others by some sort of telling , teaching, experimenting etc..this is limited and like k put it wisely this is the field of ignorance at the same time, so little we may know , so huge if not with no end is the unknown to such knowledge. Limited it is indeed..

you say: So if we say nirvana is psychological freedom then all activity of thought cannot get to it.

Would you agree to say "psychological freedom from thought analysing and dictatorship" ??

Thought cannot get it, I know that by experiments..I know it experimentally and more, I am 62 ,back to my 17 and 18 I had such moments in my life..of course at the time I would not name it as as long as you do not talk to others you do not need words to qualify such moments...I mentioned it a lot here and there ..

yes the implications are huge indeed..thought cannot get it, a practice cannot get it either..

I may try to expand a bit on that...

If it was not for having been forced into properly dealing with suffering( dukkha) from childhood up to now such moments we may called nirvana would not have been there as they wished , I know that for myself...

The problem is that thought wants one single thing with suffering but rather with all what lies behind the word: I want get rid of it right now by all means...war and mass killing as well as stealing, torturing and all human self inflicted to oneself and to others goodies, all come from that very root of attempting to escape suffering, THE MISTAKE...suffering( dukkha) which is not of course THE root...there is much more behind...and what is behind I and here, we know that thought as you say cannot reach it...because it is limited as you say , and I add here because its program does not contain such capacity, thought was never meant to be a capacity to deal with anything else but practical matters to organise practical life..and it cannot be free from its memory and from its analytical program..I rarely use the word free..as it is the so called free world which is at war all over the planet whether directly whether using proxies because it is in fact ashamed of itself..but with you here it is fine..

thought cannot get it, no practice can get it up to nothing ( for us human as we have become since some millennium) can get it so attempting to get it is already wrong...

for me as it is now so obvious that dukkha is not dukkha by coincidence but is a perfect process with very define functions and parts to play, seeing that globally we are not aware of it and attempt to reject it, then the result of that is entirely predictable for some...

when I say "for some" it is consciously said not to create some sort of hierarchy here but to state a fact..which of course will be taken wrongly by thought one more time.

the define functions of all that are haphazardly :

-implicating what is now unconscious to us in the "game",

-turning on a capacity to be able to look at most of what is going in a deep and objective on despite thought being at work,meaning that it works in parallel with thought


  • turning on a capacity which work-job , at least but not last, is to seek for all unsolved problems which are stored somewhere hidden from the superficial thought, our only tool still turned on, then when they are found they are exposed to the whole body-mind and solved instantly..this brings a weird contentment which is minor up to more...whether minor or more it is the same content in it..it is not of course the contentment of the winner...


  • it contains a transmitter receiver, of which I know at least one function that I do not master at all for some reasons, this function is to be able to communicate from brain to brain instantly....this capacity contains a particularity that thought cannot imagine and it may be why it is not found in any writing I have read so far..including in the oldest...yet I am sure that some knows about it or knew about it..of course this is ( not) known by the name of telepathy...


and surely there is much more to it...but I do not know about the " much more" ..

when this is there the question of the meaning of life is not asked , this question is only asked by a suffering mind searching for personal oblivion

so here we are looking at forgotten functions we all potentially have...and what lies behind dukkha suffering is the key..it may be the only one to start with..

you see actually some people on this planet bit by bit are uncovering the lies told us by the thieves leading us to doom....

some civilisations prior to us existed and were capable of moving, shaping and perfectly fitting together 1000 tons stones like we would not be able to do today as you cannot even insert a credit card into the jointure between the stones, by the way I really like the symbol here ...

mentally I am sure now there had been some awakened people...then something x ( k's wrong turn) took place and we lost that..this bit is told in Adam and Eve myth( for the occidental world only) so told me a clear vision, for me an hermetic allegory which talk about when knowledge as we know it today took it over in our brain-mind, then goodness was lost..then man became arrogant and ruthless...meaning thought took it over...

we must now regain those lost capacities...

thanks for the talk...

Dan ...........

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Mon, 19 Mar 2018 #21
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
Would you agree to say "psychological freedom from thought analysing and dictatorship" ??

Psychological freedom from all the images & image building.

Daniel Paul. wrote:

yes the implications are huge indeed..thought cannot get it, a practice cannot get it either..

Yes, because a practice is essentially of thought. In any practice you naturally know what to do the next moment. Therefore it is anchored to the past, thus of thought.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
thought cannot get it, no practice can get it up to nothing ( for us human as we have become since some millennium) can get it so attempting to get it is already wrong...

Yes. thought is will in operation.Will is the issue.It is the culprit. As the universe unfolds there is no will there.There is only action in the present.Thought which is essentially of the past causes conflict when it attempts to meet the ever changing present.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
for me as it is now so obvious that dukkha is not dukkha by coincidence

Yes, it is not there by coincidence. It has very definite causes. We have made this world. The structure, the poverty etc., is our making.It is our views that produces the beggar.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
when this is there the question of the meaning of life is not asked , this question is only asked by a suffering mind searching for personal oblivion

It is only a divided mind that asks the meaning of life. To say 'what's all this?' , there must be separation from the universe, from nature.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
you see actually some people on this planet bit by bit are uncovering the lies told us by the thieves leading us to doom....

Yes, thieves. It is the fear that drives man. Search for security. This takes the garb of guru with some. It is actually still the fear, wanting authority etc.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
mentally I am sure now there had been some awakened people...then something x ( k's wrong turn) took place and we lost that..this bit is told in Adam and Eve myth( for the occidental world only) so told me a clear vision, for me an hermetic allegory which talk about when knowledge as we know it today took it over in our brain-mind, then goodness was lost..then man became arrogant and ruthless...meaning thought took it over...

Yes, thought went in to the field of relationship,into meeting life. I think man's search for physical security made thought look for security in all aspects of life which is the wrong turn.

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Mon, 19 Mar 2018 #22
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
thought is will in operation.

And so....other than thought, where does "will" manifest? Can we perceive will and thought to be the exact same phenomenon? As in, "there is no division"?

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Mon, 19 Mar 2018 #23
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks for the chat Kapila...cheerio..

Dan ...........

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Tue, 20 Mar 2018 #24
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

Welcome Dan. Thank you also.

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Tue, 20 Mar 2018 #25
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
And so....other than thought, where does "will" manifest? Can we perceive will and thought to be the exact same phenomenon? As in, "there is no division"?

I will do or I will not do. This is desire in action in pursuit of it's object, is it not? Desire or rejection which is still desire.

So I make will thought in action as like & dislike.

Thought also makes images.

Therefore it is hard to say will & thought to be the exact same phenomenon as it looks to me.

I would say will is an aspect of thought.Essentially of thought.It is thought in movement wanting or rejecting.

How do you see it? Jeez Richard,nobody put that question to K!!

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Tue, 20 Mar 2018 #26
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
I would say will is an aspect of thought.

I would say that also. One aspect of ego/self/I. And so, without a thought does/can ego/will manifest?

And thank you for staying with the question despite your obvious discomfort. :)

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Tue, 20 Mar 2018 #27
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 97 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
I would say will is an aspect of thought.Essentially of thought.It is thought in movement wanting or rejecting.

Well hello again...As it had been showed within a few weeks , about the set up program of thought..thought analyses memory, look at the future, compare, evaluated, imagine, creates hierarchies, name, is memory, etc if there is only that thought will not work, to work it needs incentives, motives , reasons etc..

this is the role played by desire or will...for me it is clear..but I did not think about it, it was there...

same wise, self congratulation plays exactly in the same field..desire pushes to do, self rewarding pushes to make it good ( according to oneself only then one takes it as absolute because it only referent is.....itself !!!as long as our other capacities are not turned on) and be somehow or factually satisfied or dissatisfied with the job or proud of it if it has already invaded the psychological sphere ..we are here within the program itself...this invading of the psychological sphere by thought will lead us straight to our insane society with stealing, wars,crimes, destruction, poverty ,tortures and all other goodies..this is where Darwin plays "its" part..that is because of our ancestors..not my fault , sorry so I can kill and rob you as much as I want...this is in short the neocon deadly excuse.. ..

all that was only meant to be in practical fields only...alas.....

then this goes wrong at some stage, there are problems, they need to be solve..without pain we would not know that there are problem..well this is a start is not it ?

etc

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Tue, 20 Mar 2018.

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Wed, 21 Mar 2018 #28
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
And so, without a thought does/can ego/will manifest?

Discomfort!..haha

Well ego means 'something' must be there, isn't it? Something. A form, a picture. Something tangible in the consciousness, is it not? Anything tangible in consciousness, recognizable, is thought, is it not? Right? So 'ego' is essentially thought as far as I see.

Then 'will'.This is again wanting something tangible, recognizable, isn't it? Recognizable. So that makes it still thought. Wanting makes it thought in movement, is it not?

So is not both, the 'ego' & 'will' ,thought in movement?

But wait, is there deep abiding interest which is not the outcome of the will?

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Wed, 21 Mar 2018 #29
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks Dan. I want to read your post again.

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Thu, 22 Mar 2018 #30
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1191 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
this is the role played by desire or will...for me it is clear..but I did not think about it, it was there...

Yes. Thought in the psychological field is divisive.Thus creates a whole value system in which mankind is caught. With division 'mine or 'not mine' becomes a reality.Thus desire.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
we are here within the program itself...this invading of the psychological sphere by thought will lead us straight to our insane society

Yes. That is the whole issue of suffering. We want to solve problems. But the fact is we don't see that the problem is created by us. It is created by the whole comparative value system thought creates.The problem only exists as long as the conditioned values exist.

Thus political & social reform is mere juggling with effects. Attempts to best manage effects. Not deal with the cause.

Hope I've understood your post. Thanks.

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