Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Was Buddha's sathipattana meditation originally same as what K taught?


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Sun, 15 Apr 2018 #61
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 42 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Yes,this requires understanding the network of thought.

Yes it does and in my case I surely did not search for it at all, like for all other "visions" , insights, revelation....
( all those words to say that it was entirely involuntary and took place by , for once and more since, being the suffering itself which is nothing extra ordinary at all as this is precisely the actual state of human thought since some time)....
.....in the field of suffering; searching means thought is 100% at work..and thought can only imagine what it desires most taking no account at all about facts of course, and nothing else...then imagining about some fanciful happiness is only an escape of a life of suffering etc..

Dan ...........

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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 #62
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1064 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, you can't search for any new vision or change. Simply because you don't know what it is& if you know it then you already have it & so it is part of suffering.

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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 #63
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 42 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Yes, you can't search for any new vision or change. Simply because you don't know what it is& if you know it then you already have it & so it is part of suffering.

Hello Kapila, agreed yes. But as things as never frozen, we are again back with suffering under it various forms...and again thought like for 15 000 past years is going to do the same with the subject: trying to escape and negate the fact by all means...which is meant to fail all the time, producing more and more problems and suffering..

As a species we are clearly turning round and round in circle here since millennium..and nothing seems to change at all apart for the worse if this is possible, as I see it all around the planet, apart from exception which can be anyone anonymous probably totally unknown somewhere on this planet...

in a world fed with entertaining and the idea of some sort of immortality, etc...we are not ready for anything different, and as I see the process behind this, it is going to keep increasing until eventually we get the point the Origin is indirectly trying to force us to go towards.

What is behind suffering is a dialogue originated indirectly from the Origin toward us..of course no one listen..
why indirectly ? because as I have been showed that, the Origin being out of time cannot interfere directly with time in this matter ...what is of time must create a situation allowing what is not of time to penetrate it somehow absolutely unknown...

that is one purpose of suffering ..

Dan ...........

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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 #64
Thumb_9204480_n03 French Touch France 53 posts in this forum Offline

Did K taught any kind of meditation? Not from what I read during 36 years.

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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 #65
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1064 posts in this forum Offline

French Touch wrote:
Did K taught any kind of meditation? Not from what I read during 36 years.

K did not say sit & do this, that etc. He pointed out to the futility in systems as meditation. He said meditation is not any system.

So he addressed the issue of meditation. It is not that you do something. Sometimes he said the inquiry into yourself is the beginning of meditation, part of meditation. On other occasions he said meditation begins when all confusion has been cleared.

My understanding reading K is there cannot be any such thing as teaching meditation. Then it becomes a system which very, very, immature & childish.Such an exercise will be completely meaningless.

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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 #66
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1064 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
it is going to keep increasing until eventually we get the point the Origin is indirectly trying to force us to go towards.

Well rather dangerous to put it like that. Are you saying some outside agency is at work?

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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 #67
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 42 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

it is going to keep increasing until eventually we get the point the Origin is indirectly trying to force us to go towards.

Well rather dangerous to put it like that. Are you saying some outside agency is at work?

Hello, no for me it is not dangerous at all, why would it be ?? I know k introduced such statement by dozen, depends on how one functions with oneself...nothing but insane man is dangerous in fact ..and they lead us with our consent.

Even a simple logic properly and accurately used ( something hardly done since ages) up to its maximum potential shows to oneself in a few seconds that there is an origin beyond time, meaning which was always there in the universe we are concerned with, I play that game since young and it always shows the same result, not that all is known of course, but when thought works in its field only this idea that all is know does not appear or if it does it is immediately seen as bullshit.

Adding to that my own involuntary experiments( so called kundalini and more, I say so called as all what I read about that so far seems to show that those talking about it never lives it in fact, of course there sure are some genuine person in the matter) so I know somehow something about that, here again k has brought some numerous statement including like it is said in the Tao that the one who says he knows does not know and the one who knows does not say..so we could conclude with such statement that k did not k know anything at all, which is untrue for me ..we must be more than very careful too with others' words indeed..

So I lived those weird moments with this presence not of thought, I have to say it in order to mention from where I talk..like some.Incidentally I have realised by meeting some concerned person about that that the so called NDE, near death experiences, are in fact not at all near death experiences but living experiences..

so now put out of the way the main concern of your answer: Are you saying some outside agency is at work?

My answer is that I just have not one single clue about it !
It could well be a wrong question again ask by the analytical thinking process, well it is in fact for me now that I write that down; Look here thought in its view have the pretension to know everything or try to...

I immediately put that aside inner/outer matter. As inner,outer or wherever , does not matter as it works when the right conditions are met by the brain-mind...

I never asked such question to myself, like inner/outer, the main thing is that I perfectly know that I will not find any answer to this by myself, somehow I have learnt that and it still functions from time to time in such matters.It is part of our other capacities, they do not depend at all on thought, on the contrary as thought prevents them to function.

thought has no access for me to such knowledge which is not an accumulative knowledge , but the one type which can come to oneself as it wishes thought what k calls insight, we can call that revelation or whatever word suits oneself here, depending on one culture and first language.

So back to your question, so far, I certainly can say for myself to myself and sharing that here as much as possible , that I know that there potentially is much more than thought for us in our so called lives,

that this "more" is usually not functioning anymore and that that "something X" wherever it is ,whatever it is , has created the conditions for us to go beyond thought meaning that "It" knows about it of course...

this X is not able to directly interfere as if some origin X beyond time is interfering to create us as a kind of finish product being immersed in this sort of beyond time peaceful energy, then it would not work at all as then we would be again matter only so again caught in time so in suffering as far as thought is concerned.

This drives us logically to the point that , it is us , aka thought , which must create the conditions for such awakening to take place and what is behind suffering is the catalyst for that, it could actually be the only one, but this I do not know..

Remove suffering we have not one single reason, motive, etc to attempt to change anything at all..

Thought must accept to shut up....

this brings us right back to some k's statement like we have only thought to start with

etc..

cheerio..no re reading..

Dan ...........

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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 #68
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 42 posts in this forum Offline

And k is helping us in the matter with today's quote:

We sometimes experience a state of tranquillity, of extraordinary clarity and joy, when the mind is serene and still. These moments come unexpectedly, without invitation. Such experiencing is not the result of calculated, disciplined thought. It occurs when thought is self-forgetful, when thought has ceased to become, when the mind is not in the conflict of its own self-created problems. So our problem is not how such a creative, joyous moment shall come and be maintained, but how to bring about the cessation of self-expansive thought, which does not imply self-immolation but the transcending of the activities of the self. When a machine is revolving very fast, as a fan with several blades, the separate parts are not visible but appear as one. So the self, the 'me', seems to be a unified entity, but if its activities can be slowed down, then we shall perceive that it is not a unified entity, but made up of many separate and contending desires and pursuits. These separate wants and hopes, fears and joys make up the self. The self is a term to cover craving in its different forms. To understand the self there must be an awareness of craving in its multiple aspects. The passive awareness, the choiceless discernment, reveal the ways of the self, bringing freedom from bondage. Thus when the mind is tranquil and free of its own activity and chatter, there is supreme wisdom.

One point, a pity that k did not bring the proper use of what is behind suffering as THE catalyst in such statement as for me something vital so is missing..but this is an extract from a talk so it can be somewhere else ..
Having said that if one has read k intensively with a good memory, it is said as such about suffering as a catalyst very often, but not said that way at all, he never used the word catalyst...k seemed to have solved suffering the proper way for me on an ongoing bases as it occurs..it explains it..that would need more but not my cup of tea to go any further into that.

Dan ...........

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Wed, 18 Apr 2018 #69
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1064 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
Even a simple logic properly and accurately used ( something hardly done since ages) up to its maximum potential shows to oneself in a few seconds that there is an origin beyond time,

Yes, but the logic was certainly not simple for me! But this can be logically worked out, yes.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
one who says he knows does not know and the one who knows does not say.

Dan I don't think it is that the one who knows does not say. It is what they see is beyond knowing. You cannot know it. Nobody. You can only live it at that moment. It is changing so fast that you cannot recognize it as such & such for it to be in the realm of known.It is not of memory simply because it cannot go to memory.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
thought has no access for me to such knowledge which is not an accumulative knowledge , but the one type which can come to oneself as it wishes thought what k calls insight, we can call that revelation or whatever word suits oneself here, depending on one culture and first language.

Yes. We may be seeing some things directly.

I want to read the remaining part again.....

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Wed, 18 Apr 2018 #70
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 42 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

one who says he knows does not know and the one who knows does not say.

Dan I don't think it is that the one who knows does not say. It is what they see is beyond knowing. You cannot know it. Nobody. You can only live it at that moment. It is changing so fast that you cannot recognize it as such & such for it to be in the realm of known.It is not of memory simply because it cannot go to memory.

Good morning , well to me as it is probably afternoon here you live..

So that is interesting, let me be more precise as I may have been mixed up ?

Lao Tzu quote is :He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know.

as to k, I quoted it from memory as someone here quoted such statement a few years ago saying it was from k but I did not find it but so far only this in Spanish

K: Saber es ser ignorante. No saber es el comienzo de la sabiduría.”

Krishnamurti To know is to be ignorant. Not to know is the beginning of wisdom..

So the way you bring things is perfectly clear ...thanks for that..

Dan ...........

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2 days ago #71
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1064 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know.

Yes, this seems to mean what you said surely.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
Krishnamurti To know is to be ignorant. Not to know is the beginning of wisdom..

Yes, this is what K says. It is great because it is not possible to know psychologically. Things change all the time & the man who knows is anchored to something in the past which has since undergone change.

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2 days ago #72
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1064 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
that this "more" is usually not functioning anymore and that that "something X" wherever it is ,whatever it is , has created the conditions for us to go beyond thought meaning that "It" knows about it of course...

Well if you consider K's life there is much to support this.TS(Theosophical Society) was formed in 1875. 20 years before K was born to prepare the world for the coming world teacher. Then Dr.Annie was talking about a world teacher long before K was discovered I believe.Before her Lady Blavetsky too talked of same i believe.

And Leadbeater discovered K & he said was the vehicle for the coming world teacher.They said it was for Lord Maithree's consciousness to manifest & preach. Leadbeater is reported have said that after he first saw boy K , those great beings kept saying repeatedly as he was returning, 'You found the boy. I've already started manifesting'.

And K said he realized & preached all over the world although he dissolved the Order of the Star.K became, without a shade of doubt, a religious teacher of the highest distinction.

So facts speak for themselves. Somebody certainly knew what was coming!!

But I don't think this is God. That is not there. Logic is tough but I think this universe at the base is full without a container. That is what K called the 'ground'.(Ending of Time talks of this) A cup can be empty. Then something can be put in it. But if something is full but without a cup then it goes beyond our comprehension.But K talked about beyond space.You cannot talk about a creation of something like that. That is timelessly there.

But there are greater beings. I don't have any doubt about this. However the whole point is we have to do our job. I don't think anybody, greater being or whatever can free us. We need to begin from scratch & do the job ourselves.

But K said few changed people will affect the consciousness of man. So if such human beings are there, in close proximity to them consciousness of others will get affected. That is energy in consciousness of a changed person may affect the crystallized energy of an adjacent person making the consciousness of the other person more of energy making understanding much easier.

Of course Dan, possibilities.

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2 days ago #73
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 42 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

Krishnamurti To know is to be ignorant. Not to know is the beginning of wisdom..

Yes, this is what K says. It is great because it is not possible to know psychologically. Things change all the time & the man who knows is anchored to something in the past which has since undergone change.

Good ...whatever time it is ...

Well here I would like to be more specific and define...in my view based on what I have experienced one cannot wipe up all memories, if that was really the case one would die within days , OK that sounds obvious but obvious or not does not matter in what I am trying to bring ...

Some part of some experiences , so collied kundalini and deeper moments than that included , some experiences beyond thought, anything beyond thought leaves a mark in the brain mind....k somewhere says so too, and this time I am sure 100% to have read that somewhere in one of k's book...

For the sake of analysing , if I remove all memories left of such moments, I would forget too that to leave suffering alone properly is the only right thing to do and that it may or not lead to kundalini or whatever or nothing at all...we as thinking human having no say in this matter, our only main concern is to solve problems, all problems properly when they occur ..

It took me 40 years to understand that about suffering clearly....if I do not bring that into account then if it takes 40 more years to again get it, then I am dead...

k is not clear on that yet as usual he mentioned what i am saying here somewhere with no insistence on it at all..

all memories are not bad at all, some are even vital and needed, not talking here in he practical fields where they are vital ..

So I find such statement by k very dangerous, not as such because behind that for him there is a lot of experiences, but the way it is inevitably going to be interpreted...I stick on that..it may bring oneself to another perfectest catch 22 ...when we already are totally stuck with tons of
them

Dan ...........

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2 days ago #74
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 42 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

that this "more" is usually not functioning anymore and that that "something X" wherever it is ,whatever it is , has created the conditions for us to go beyond thought meaning that "It" knows about it of course...

Well if you consider K's life there is much to support this.TS(Theosophical Society) was formed in 1875. 20 years before K was born to prepare the world for the coming world teacher. Then Dr.Annie was talking about a world teacher long before K was discovered I believe.Before her Lady Blavatsky too talked of same i believe.

And Leadbeater discovered K & he said was the vehicle for the coming world teacher.They said it was for Lord Maithree's consciousness to manifest & preach. Leadbeater is reported have said that after he first saw boy K , those great beings kept saying repeatedly as he was returning, 'You found the boy. I've already started manifesting'.

And K said he realized & preached all over the world although he dissolved the Order of the Star.K became, without a shade of doubt, a religious teacher of the highest distinction.

So facts speak for themselves. Somebody certainly knew what was coming!!

Hello again, sorry to quote all that but it is important to do so ...

so yes indeed this seems really right.

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
but I don't think this is God. That is not there. Logic is tough but I think this universe at the base is full without a container. That is what K called the 'ground'.(Ending of Time talks of this) A cup can be empty. Then something can be put in it. But if something is full but without a cup then it goes beyond our comprehension.But K talked about beyond space. You cannot talk about a creation of something like that. That is timelessly there.

Well the word god means now for me: " ultimate origin", as there necessarily is an ultimate origin to actually everything is my perception, or the ground yes , then it is easier to understand something, but the word has been so corrupted so that behind it there is a heavy burden and a series of automatic images and reactions, but not for me where god means origin.

I do not know about the universe being full without a container, I have seen nothing in this matter, yet as a child a repetitive nightmare for month was bringing me to the limits of matter and I have for myself a sort of view on that. But here no certitude...of course sometimes we know things..k says this and the exact opposite in many places, this is why it may lead people to some dangerous catch 22 ..like better not read k at all...this is why I did not encourage anyone around me to read his books

anyway I find your input "bloody" interesting ..;-)...and I mean that..so thanks for the input here.

you say: if something is full but without a cup then it goes beyond our comprehension...

that goes along with the dream-nightmare , the unknown around matter not being matter, not being visible was totally unknown ...that was the "cup" ???..but here I am terribly and consciously aware of the danger of analysing so I do not analyse, I do not try to understand at all as I know it is a pure waste of time and energy , I have learned that and this brings us right back to the previous part above about the known...as if I do not use this known I am back to when I was 10 years old not having any clue about all that...

there is some learning so some memory in some very specific mental fields only which are vital to be used up to a point , it is up to one to know what and when..so much for k's ""not to know is the beginning of wisdom""..

but mind you this is not at all in contradiction with k's global work..but I cannot bring all the elements here as that would be far too time consuming and complex..and between us as I am not trying to convince so in my view that is enough for now..

you say : But K talked about beyond space. You cannot talk about a creation of something like that. That is timelessly there.

well yes I can, why having such limitations, if it is false well it will be seen as false , I never thought that way..my wife who is so often limiting herself in any fields knows about my comments on that, and since 25 years she still does not get it :-)) yet when caught on the spot she effectively sees that it is what she is doing so ..:-)) ..but she does not use this learning....again back to : " not to know is the beginning of wisdom"..that is certainly not universally true ..

Creation is when what has no time creates what is of time somehow unknown which possibly will remain unknown unless one has a vision originating from what is not of time showing it..not my case I am telling you !! Such vision may even be useless but just a vision not to be used but seen...again logic says that ,here it is a conceptual view, but believe me it is a very powerful one..but even here we usually globally do not use logic properly...

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
But there are greater beings. I don't have any doubt about this. However the whole point is we have to do our job. I don't think anybody, greater being or whatever can free us. We need to begin from scratch & do the job ourselves.

yes like you I have no doubt about that ..one "being" I know nothing about was there long ago....nothing like k of course..I have not single clue about where she was, who she was etc and I can remain with this unknown with no problem ..I know some people who had such weird impossible experience that even their moment are totally overwhelming others again and again years after, one would not read about it anywhere...unless of course in k's youth weird moments...that is on the same wavelength and is nothing extra ordinary as such as it was meant to be our lives ...

to be more wrong than us is impossible ...;-(

again agreed that we have to do our job and not being too carried away but such fantastic stories, yet who knows what brings goodness ??? not me..

I think that we are now far beyond the moment to be careful with all that..some will clearly try to blow up most people on this planet and the time to hide oneself behind clever koan, clever saying, allegories, hermetic systems etc is clearly over as it did not work ..all that had been a failure

for me anything is fine to try , unless what we do now as a species like competition, business, war, lies, crimes, stealing, propaganda, torture etc all being the outcome of a suffering and limited thought ..again it seems obvious yet not all when watching the state of this poor planet ..

back to suffering..

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
But K said few changed people will affect the consciousness of man. So if such human beings are there, in close proximity to them consciousness of others will get affected. That is energy in consciousness of a changed person may affect the crystallized energy of an adjacent person making the consciousness of the other person more of energy making understanding much easier.

Of course Dan, possibilities.

yes agreed with you, the potential is there, no doubt either about that ....

between us as no one listen , my own job in that matter for now is to tell about suffering , I was born with it so had to go into unless kill myself ...up to anyone to find out what one must be up to...

recently one of my daughter was talking about her "capacities" in an open manner not moaning about it but being factual , and all that ,saying that she did not find herself having some interesting capacities, and she is naturally remarkably and naturally cooperative, this is one capacity we do not have at birth as it is not included in thought capacities and I just said to her that for me she had a remarkable capacity in this matter..one which alone can solve most human problems , not all of them of course..

she gave me a nice big hug..

we stay on that one...

nice to exchange with you..it reminds me long talks I had with one of my best friend called Buddhadhassa lyanage ..

cheerio

no re reading !

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. 1 day ago.

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20 hours ago #75
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1064 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
Well here I would like to be more specific and define...in my view based on what I have experienced one cannot wipe up all memories, if that was really the case one would die within days ,

Yes. You cannot wipe out memory. You can only wipe out psychological memory as far as I understand.For example if you call me idiot, there are two things involved. Memory of your statement & the hurt. I think it is only the hurt we can wipe out. Your statement will be in memory.

This I find interesting. Most people think you cannot use past memory if you are religious. This might be a misunderstanding.I think you can without hatred. You cannot associate a terrorist.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
anything beyond thought leaves a mark in the brain mind....k somewhere says so too, and this time I am sure 100% to have read that somewhere in one of k's book...

Well K was once telling Dr.Bohm that he woke up one night & felt that the mind has touched all sources of energy & that there was nothing beyond that. That is called the 'absolute' I believe. He told Dr.Bohm that that must have some affect on the whole organism. You see there he was clearly talking about something beyond thought but he said it must have some affect on the whole organism.

However, you see, if you experience something that does not become memory, you can state the fact. You have memory that it happened. But you cannot re-generate it. Say for example if you have joy you cannot experience that again by thinking about it again whereas something like anger you can re-experience.But joy may be affecting the organism like for longevity, for better health etc.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
It took me 40 years to understand that about suffering clearly....if I do not bring that into account then if it takes 40 more years to again get it, then I am dead...

This raises an interesting question.Do you think understanding need memory for it to be part of life? Not that memory is not there, your description. Or is it more vital, living, than just mere information?

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