Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is silence? Is it static or it changes it's qualities all the time?


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Tue, 10 Apr 2018 #61
Thumb_k2 Ken D United States 58 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
That is we say 'I am Muslim' & another 'I am Buddhist'. Now is this a fact, a truth?

What does it mean to "be" something?

"What emptiness do you gaze upon! Do you not feel a thrill passing through the air with the notes of the far-away song floating from the other shore?" Rabindranath Tagore

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Tue, 10 Apr 2018 #62
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5050 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
You can't imagine silence because it has no shape .

Is it possible to think about something, discuss something without first having an image of it? Without first having a concept of it?

Goodman B wrote:
But we can surely discuss it as we have been doing.

Yes you can discuss silence as you have been doing but only within the limitation of your knowledge and experience which is limited. Thought can only operate in the known. K pointed out that this limitation is a prison we all are essentially in. We rearrange the furniture and decorate the walls of this prison and imagine we are free.

If silence is the absence of thought, the movement of thought, then when we think about and discuss silence it is not silence but the image of silence. The image that thought has invented.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 11 Apr 2018.

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Wed, 11 Apr 2018 #63
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

"
Is that what K. was doing all those years of "discussing"? Just "rearranging the furniture and decorating the walls of his prison and imagining that he was free"?"-d
Why don't you find out for yourself instead of asking us to tell you what krishnamurti did or did not. I wouldn't accept any opinion about K.

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Wed, 11 Apr 2018 #64
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

K: There must be freedom, and freedom comes only when you understand the whole problem of envy, greed, ambition, and the desire for power. It is freedom from those things that allows the extraordinary thing called character to flower. Such a man has compassion, he knows what it is to love -not the man who merely repeats a lot of words about morality.So the flowering of goodness does not lie within society, because society in itself is always corrupt. Only the man who understands the whole structure and process of society, and is freeing himself from it, has character, and he alone can flower in goodness. - Krishnamurti, J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life #JidduKrishnamurti #compassion #quote #wisdom #Philosophy #religious

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Wed, 11 Apr 2018 #65
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5050 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Is that what K. was doing all those years of "discussing"? Just "rearranging the furniture and decorating the walls of his prison and imagining that he was free"?"

Do you think he was? The important thing is what are we doing? Each one of us. Are we free of our conditioning? Can we discuss something completely in the present without drawing on knowledge and opinion? The past? If not what are we discussing?

Goodman B wrote:
Why don't you find out for yourself instead of asking us to tell you what krishnamurti did or did not.

First of all I'm not asking you to tell me anything. I am looking at it for myself. That's why I'm asking all these questions about how ,if you see the limitation of thought, why are you using thought to find out about something that is not of thought?

Goodman B wrote:
I wouldn't accept any opinion about K.

Who said anything about accepting an opinion about K besides you? I'm questioning the value of this discussion not expressing an opinion about Krishnamurti.

Let's stay on topic. I'll ask again. How can you discuss silence if thought is not a part of silence? And is "silence" an ideal or is it a reality that only a quiet mind, a mind not steeped in opinions and conclusions, can be?

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Wed, 11 Apr 2018 #66
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

"
Is that what K. was doing all those years of "discussing"? Just "rearranging the furniture and decorating the walls of his prison and imagining that he was free"?"-d
No, k was not doing what you sugested. Your question is a wrong one.

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Wed, 11 Apr 2018 #67
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Let's stay on topic. I'll ask again. How can you discuss silence if thought is not a part of silence?

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Wed, 11 Apr 2018 #68
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

I don't know how serious you are with regard to k's teachings. When you say that he was in a prison you have already denied the teachings. He discussed silence a thousand times . It is time that we do something and not make silence into something unreachable. Without silence there cannot be any understanding.

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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 #69
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5050 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
When you say that he was in a prison you have already denied the teachings.

I never said that or implied it. I can't imagine why you would come to such a completely outlandish and unwarranted conclusion based on what I have written on this thread.

Goodman B wrote:
He discussed silence a thousand times .

K understood his conditioning, if indeed he ever was conditioned and when he spoke I think it was clear that he was seeing beyond conditioning what he talked about. The fact that K did this when he discussed silence does not mean that is the way it is being discussed here.

All I have been trying to say is that we first have to understand our conditioning, our culture and racial, political, etc biases before we can really discuss something. What good does it do to discuss something if is always within the narrow confines of conditioning; prison, thought, limited understanding?

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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 #70
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

To understand thought or consciousness or conditioning there has to be first silence . the mind that is jumping all over the place is incapable of understanding it's own conditioning. That is clear to me.

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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 #71
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

It seems that someone(Mr D-) which was ashamed of what he wrote
" Is that what K. was doing all those years of "discussing"? Just "rearranging the furniture and decorating the walls of his prison and imagining that he was free"?"-d
Mr D- deleted his silly question and jack responded for him. And I thought J- was D- and so on, Hahaha...

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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 #72
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

If you watch yourself you will see that we are anxious to turn everything into duality. Some how we are brainwashed to compare .
through comparison we think we understand things. But is that true? Can I understand myself through comparison? Obviously duality or comparison prevents self-understanding ..

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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 #73
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1144 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
What does it mean to "be" something?

May I comment on this Ken. Because I made the statement you are quoting.

To be something means some form isn't it? Something discernible. Like 'I am Buddhist' , 'I am Muslim'.

Now this is some evaluation, right? That is a form can exist only in contrast, right? So this a comparative value, right?

Then this entity is divided against another, right? Contrast means that , right? Then to be something means it is an entity that contributes to all the chaos & confusion in society , right?

Let me tell you something. Here in Sri Lanka some say they are Buddhists. Some are Muslims who are a minority.

Now the Buddhist scriptures have very, very, deep things. That the 'self' is the cause of suffering, nothing is permanent etc., whereas the Koran has some very controversial things. Jihad etc-at least in my copy.

Now here in this country, if we are very impartial, Muslims have been a very peaceful community.Not the Buddhists!! (in recent past there have been clashes but generally Muslims led peaceful lives here. This is not about Muslims elsewhere). Now the Buddhists have been very dominant! Due to the very deep things in scriptures(which i think is are facts) they have a sense of superiority & become dominant. 'we are more important' Buddhists feel.So they have become arrogant!So truths they are supposed to represent have no relevance. What is real is that it is acting as a dividing factor!!

Well, to be something is that I feel.

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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 #74
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1144 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
To understand thought or consciousness or conditioning there has to be first silence .

What do you mean here?

I feel to understand thought there must be observation without the will in operation.

What is silence here?

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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 #75
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
they have a sense of superiority & become dominant. 'we are more important' Buddhists feel.

hello Kapila, yes , as I see that this is a natural outcome of the thought process program, ignorant of what it is, of life itself, of what it creates, of its suffering, of its pain, of its fears etc , thought has simply no capacity for life as it is not its direct "business" , thought is a tool and as such has to be used by a "hand" itself directed by "something X" not of thought who-which widely and deeply knows the whys and wherefores..

thought is trying it it is a failure.

the new appointed chairman of the CIA is a sort of Sri Lanka Buddhist so, as he talks too about the so called American exceptionalism, a country which has kind of 242 years and only six years without war somewhere in the world to steal other's wealth..in a way that is true that such country is exceptional then but, not to worry my American friend of kinfonet most European countries are on the same wavelength...exceptional yes somehow but not as some mean it of course..we must not get mixed up between the leaders and the people...well not sure here..

k was keen of such subject being able to discern that it is the majority of the people and what they are which created such evil all over the planet..

I am the problem..changing oneself changing the world..

down to one person so does everyone like a country at his own level alone with himself in his thoughts..I am exceptional because my referent is myself, of course thought have no clue about that, it is called narcissism or looking at oneself in a mirror, not knowing that it is a mirror ...one way or another it is I believe to be something yes..

Physical death only in most cases will put an end that madness and suffering, like some fragment of comets did twice recently like 12800 and 11600 years ago ( now proven) , eradicating most humans by a huge flood than a tough ice age etc ..and end to that suffering, that fear, that nonsense..etc..

k: the future is now !! OK so all takes place now..

thought, despite what some think k meant, thought has not any key in all that matter..as for me the attention he speaks of is not of thought , etc..what I had lived says so it is not my opinion..like what some have too says it ..

Yet thought is the one which must do the first step and it happens with itself...what could that be ? to stop running away which never takes place anyway so being aware that it is trying to run away from facts of life like death...a minor detail of course ...in other words thought is refusing life as it is..it tries to replace it by its desires..it never works of course..

is it that to be something ?

we only have thought to start with k said many times too....and thought have only two things for itself, one is that it sees everything comparing with....itself,itself being the "nec plus ultra ", the summit of all things on one hand and on the other hand the reality of a miserable life,wealthy or not dos not matter much , yet the poor people are suffering much less ! all this is derived from the program of thought itself...

k: knowing your self...etc

well the gloomy swamp here seems very deep ...the outer world is dark, there seem to be no hope in main news and yet in real life , there seem to be some sort of awakening to truth..

maybe the end of the Kali yuga is there...if such old text have some value..

I know how all that sounds...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Fri, 13 Apr 2018.

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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 #76
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

I posted earlier the root meaning of the word silence which is to be quiet. To understand anything one has to be quiet first and listen not bring his noise into the understanding of the thing. I think that is fairly simple to understand that the mind has to be quiet in order to observe discover learn or understand. Apparently some of us give spiritual meaning to silence which possibly comes from their backgrounds. But to me silence is a must.

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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 #77
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1144 posts in this forum Offline

Interesting Dan. Thanks.

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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 #78
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1144 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
But to me silence is a must.

In what manner is this achieved please?

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Sun, 15 Apr 2018 #79
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1144 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
I posted earlier the root meaning of the word silence which is to be quiet. To understand anything one has to be quiet first and listen not bring his noise into the understanding of the thing. I think that is fairly simple to understand that the mind has to be quiet in order to observe discover learn or understand.

This is right. What do you suggest?

Goodman B wrote:
Apparently some of us give spiritual meaning to silence which possibly comes from their backgrounds. But to me silence is a must.

Even I took it as the silence K talks about when all has been cleared, when thought has ended.

Your post 10 suggests you referred to the same.However apparently you mean quietness to investigate. It will be interesting to discuss this point. What do you wish to say?

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Sun, 15 Apr 2018 #80
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

Sorry, I have been having a case of sinus infection for the whole past week. So I was not able to answer to the questions. What is for sure is that there cannot be a technique or pattern to make the mind quiet . Because a system is born out of thought and is mechanical and won't lead to stillness of the mind. The mind becomes quiet when it is deeply interested in something. There is no how to become interested in self -knowledge or freedom is there?

This post was last updated by Goodman B Sun, 15 Apr 2018.

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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 #81
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1144 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Because a system is born out of thought and is mechanical and won't lead to stillness of the mind.

Yes.

Goodman B wrote:
The mind becomes quiet when it is deeply interested in something. There is no how to become interested in self -knowledge or freedom is there?

Yes. So why is man failing in this? Is it that he/she is not really interested in this?

Surely there must be a few who are genuinely interested. So why isn't anybody getting anywhere with this?

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Wed, 18 Apr 2018 #82
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

It really doesn't matter what society does because society is always corrupt. What is important is that one keeps the flame of discontent alive . the flame is withered away when society is considered as noble and something to be supported like the communist do. One is responsible to keep the flame of discontent alive and burning. So that everything that thought has created is wiped out. Casual negation is not negation, it is merely intellectual persuasion, Is it not?

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Wed, 18 Apr 2018 #83
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

It really doesn't matter what society does because society is always corrupt. What is important is that one keeps the flame of discontent alive . the flame is withered away when society is considered as noble and something to be supported like the communist do. One is responsible to keep the flame of discontent alive and burning. So that everything that thought has created is wiped out. Casual negation is not negation, it is merely intellectual persuasion, Is it not?

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Wed, 18 Apr 2018 #84
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

Thought seeks power through many things. Thought creates the ego or the self or a centre that is assumed to be permanent. Nature or universe has no centre but thought invents the self as an idea. Society is based on the idea of the self. thought creates the idea for power therefore society and thought are corrupt.
Thought is the self -image maker and it does it for security. But can there be security in an image?

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Thu, 19 Apr 2018 #85
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1144 posts in this forum Offline

Society is us. Why are we failing in this? What are we lacking?

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Thu, 19 Apr 2018 #86
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

Society is not us. We are the product of the rotten society. The rotten society has existed for generations before us . We like the way society is set up because we know how to maneuver in it. Thought the creator of the images is the root of corruption .

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Thu, 19 Apr 2018 #87
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

Society is not us. We are the product of the rotten society. The rotten society has existed for generations before us . We like the way society is set up because we know how to maneuver in it. Thought the creator of the images is the root of corruption .

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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 #88
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1144 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
We are the product of the rotten society.

But who produced the society originally? Is it not that society makes us & we make the society?

For example if we all end nationality , will the society be nationalistic? So is it not both ways?

Goodman B wrote:
Thought the creator of the images is the root of corruption .

Yes, but why are we failing to change this? K said when the Buddha said this only 2 could do it & when he said, by 1986, nobody had done it.

So what is happening? Is it that the whole world is pursuing success & we fear to be left behind, fear to stand alone? Or is it that we simply do not know what to do about it?

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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 #89
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 215 posts in this forum Offline

On the contrary I think that krishnamurti was able to convey what he was talking about to his audiences very efficiently . .

This post was last updated by Goodman B Fri, 20 Apr 2018.

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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 #90
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5050 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Society is not us. We are the product of the rotten society. The rotten society has existed for generations before us .

Do you see how contradictory your above statements are? I wonder. First you say "Society is not us" and then, in effect, you contradict yourself by saying "We are the product of the rotten society." Being the product of something means that we are that something.

Then you say that the "rotten society has existed for generations before us" as if that proves we aren't the rotten society. We, who are living today, are the ones who are perpetuating the "rotten society" by following the dictates, the path, invented by the society we live in.

Society is all of the traditions, biases, beliefs and so on that are handed down from generation to generation. This is our conditioning and we are our conditioning, our programming if you prefer.

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