Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Inward Flowering


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Mon, 20 May 2019 #1
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Inward Flowering Dialogue With Students And Staff
Brockwood Park 1976

Krishnamurti: "I think it would be good if we could talk over together this
morning the question of whether here, in this community, each one of us is
flowering, and growing inwardly. Or are we each following a certain narrow
groove, so that at the end of our life we will realize that we have never taken the
opportunity to flower completely, and regret it for the rest of our life? Could we go
into that?"

I think that this could be an interesting topic to discuss here. We are a small community who all share an interest in Krishnamurti's teachings. Krishnamurti himself talked about flowering and growing inwardly. Is anybody interested in this?

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Mon, 20 May 2019 #2
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Krishnamurti himself talked about flowering and growing inwardly. Is anybody interested in this?

Isn't what this is all about Sean? It may not be coherent at times but everyone is here because they were touched by K.'s words...For some it stays at the level of reading, listening, and watching his talks. For others it moved in to experimentation to make 'real' or 'first hand' what he is saying. To find the truth of it in and for oneself. And that seems to me now to be a 'journey' with no end, a journey of seeing and discarding the false...and even with that there could be at the moment of one's death the 'insight' that the truth was missed, was not totally 'grasped' etc., but that will be as it will be. In the meantime...

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Mon, 20 May 2019 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5646 posts in this forum Online

Yes it is an interesting topic, Sean. As one possibly important example of being put into a "grove" I look back at my own education in public school. I see how thoroughly my fellow students and I were conditioned to believe in Christianity and our country (USA in my case). In other words to accept and perpetuate the division of organized religion and nationalism. Nearly all of the history we were taught was rubbish, propaganda and idealistic nonsense that didn't exist in reality.

This kind of conditioning at such an early age can be extremely difficult to overcome mainly because we are not aware that we are being conditioned.

We were educated not to understand ourselves, to observe Nature and life around us but rather to fit into a mold that would eventually make us "productive and responsible members of society". Which actually translates into being good employees for the corporations. We were trained and conditioned to perpetuate the most destructive economic system ever devised by Man. Capitalism: The psychopathic idea that some people are more entitled to food, water and shelter than others.

I'm sure that people from other countries have their own examples of being conditioned to function in a limited and "productive" way which primarily benefited those in control and the interests of the few.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 20 May 2019.

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Mon, 20 May 2019 #4
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
K. ...are we each following a certain narrow
groove, so that at the end of our life we will realize that we have never taken the
opportunity to flower completely, and regret it for the rest of our life?

Yes, each of us in a "groove" narrow or wide, it makes no difference...but it turns out that there can be no "flowering" in the 'groove'. It is interesting to see our situation like that, isn't it? All of us, of humanity each of us, conditioned in ways that limit us to a groove or a center and that is where most of us will remain till death. We endeavor to expand the boundary around us but we can't escape it. Because we are it. We make it as comfortable as possible each in our own way but when we (if we) look inside and outside, we sense that something is very 'wrong' with us. Not nature, not the animals but with us. We don't "flower". We stay within our limits, tethered to our beliefs as well as our "non-beliefs". To our attachments, material and personal...holding them inside our personal groove for our comfort, security and amusement. And within the groove or center we have this notion of 'time': that in 'time' things will work out and if not in this life, possibly the next. We look for an 'authority that we hope can lead us in this life to the 'promised land'. Can deliver us from the groove. But do we want to leave the comfort and security of our 'known' center for something 'unknown' or rather stay huddled with the others and the newer and ever more dazzling toys, somewhat satisfied to endlessly decorate each of our own prisons until death puts an end to the craziness of it all?

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Mon, 20 May 2019 #5
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1272 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Krishnamurti: "I think it would be good if we could talk over together this
morning the question of whether here, in this community, each one of us is
flowering, and growing inwardly. Or are we each following a certain narrow
groove, so that at the end of our life we will realize that we have never taken the
opportunity to flower completely, and regret it for the rest of our life? Could we go
into that?"

Could we go into that? I am not sure. Maybe among friends of Krishnamurti it was possible then. Because flowering is a nonverbal movement and all we have here is words and expressions. But that doesn't mean that we can not inquire into things that k spoke about.

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Thu, 23 May 2019 #6
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1272 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Krishnamurti: "I think it would be good if we could talk over together this
morning the question of whether here, in this community, each one of us is
flowering, and growing inwardly. Or are we each following a certain narrow
groove, so that at the end of our life we will realize that we have never taken the
opportunity to flower completely, and regret it for the rest of our life? Could we go
into that?"

I think that we all regret .

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Thu, 23 May 2019 #7
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Isn't what this is all about Sean? It may not be coherent at times but everyone is here because they were touched by K.'s words...For some it stays at the level of reading, listening, and watching his talks. For others it moved in to experimentation to make 'real' or 'first hand' what he is saying. To find the truth of it in and for oneself

Hi Dan. Yes, what you say is very true. However, I think it's difficult to say if inward flowering is happening or not. How would this manifest itself in our daily lives?

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Thu, 23 May 2019 #8
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
We were educated not to understand ourselves, to observe Nature and life around us but rather to fit into a mold that would eventually make us "productive and responsible members of society".

Hi Jack. It always surprised me that our education at schools, colleges and universities mostly doesn't include looking at hugely important questions such as understanding ourselves and how we behave.

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Thu, 23 May 2019 #9
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Could we go into that? I am not sure. Maybe among friends of Krishnamurti it was possible then. Because flowering is a nonverbal movement and all we have here is words and expressions

Hello One Self. I think we have to accept the limitations of an online discussion forum. All we have here is words but we can try to use these in as skillful a manner as possible in order to communicate.

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Thu, 23 May 2019 #10
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I think it's difficult to say if inward flowering is happening or not. How would this manifest itself in our daily lives?

Is it incremental, this "flowering" having to do with time/ becoming, or can it take place only when the energy that is now maintaining the self-image, the 'center', the "narrow groove", totally ends? That is all we can 'know' isn't it, the conditioned self, the 'me' and all the accumulations. We can speculate about how this flowering or psychological revolution might manifest but it would just be imagination. What has to be 'done' as I understand this is that an 'order' has to take place in us... and that takes place only through the seeing of our disorder. (Self-knowledge) The seeing through or 'piercing' the conditioning. There has to be an ending of our psychological conflict and suffering, which constantly dissipates the energy that could possibly bring about such a 'flowering' or transformation.

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Thu, 23 May 2019 #11
Thumb_em3 Ken D United States 39 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Krishnamurti: "I think it would be good if we could talk over together this
morning the question of whether here, in this community, each one of us is
flowering, and growing inwardly. Or are we each following a certain narrow
groove, so that at the end of our life we will realize that we have never taken the
opportunity to flower completely, and regret it for the rest of our life?"

"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived." Henry David Thoreau

"Whence should there be joy to a peaceless man?" Bhagavad Gita

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Fri, 24 May 2019 #12
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1272 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived." Henry David Thoreau.

The above is somehow similar to what k said but k is more direct and he doesn't suggest that we go and live in the woods in order to live. Man has tried that. Communists said change the environment and man will change. But man has made the environment according to his inner desire.
The inward flowering of the mind is not possible when one lives in the middle of confusion and conflict.

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Sat, 25 May 2019 #13
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
We can speculate about how this flowering or psychological revolution might manifest but it would just be imagination.

I'm not so sure about this Dan. I mean, if there is inner flowering taking place it must surely have an impact on our actions. If my house is a mess, I'm in conflict with many people and am addicted to tobacco and alcohol then that is surely a manifestation of my inner state. Isn't inner flowering connected to observing the chaos in my life and this observation leading to action and change? Perhaps even the word "flowering" is indicative of something which happens over time or at least something that is cyclical- a seed is planted, a plant grows, a flower appears, it blooms and then dies.

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Sat, 25 May 2019 #14
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Isn't inner flowering connected to observing the chaos in my life and this observation leading to action and change?

I may have this wrong but what you mention above for me is part of "putting one's house in order' and this is the prerequisite to any possibility of "flowering". I understand 'flowering' to be the ending of the 'self', the ending of psychological thought/time, 'freedom from the known'.

In different words, the ending of meeting the present with any shadow of the past...we have been taught to carry the past with us, all that we have experienced, learned, accumulated, etc. and that is the 'screen' through which the ever new present is seen. As K. has said, that must be "died to" in order to be "free from the known". That is part of putting the house in order, not accumulating, (not holding on to the past, the 'known') in the psychological realm. No?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 27 May 2019.

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Sun, 26 May 2019 #15
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1272 posts in this forum Offline

wrote:
The inward flowering of the mind is not possible when one lives in the middle of confusion and conflict.

The growing confusion and uncertainty in the world is due to our inner poverty. The inner conflict expresses itself in wars and antagonisms.
What is the cause of the inner conflict?
Is it conflicting desires each pulling in one direction, opposite to each other? What is desire and how does it come about is the question that comes to one's mind?
What is desire ? What is the nature of desire? Is it thought?

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Tue, 28 May 2019 #16
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I may have this wrong but what you mention above for me is part of "putting one's house in order' and this is the prerequisite to any possibility of "flowering". I understand 'flowering' to be the ending of the 'self', the ending of psychological thought/time, 'freedom from the known'.

Hi Dan. Yes, I see things the same way. "Putting your house in order" seems to make a lot of sense.

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Tue, 28 May 2019 #17
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
"Putting your house in order" seems to make a lot of sense.

It does to me, when considering all this in terms of energy. The amount of energy required to keep the self 'happy', occupied, amused, excited, etc. is substantial isn't it? And yet it can never fully satisfy...there always has to be more and newer diversions. But if this 'direction' (of evading boredom and conflict and seeking pleasure) is seen as the impediment to 'flowering', to realizing that this 'becoming' is futile because in K.'s words, what we truly are is "nothing" (not-a-thing), then seeing all this means the direction and energy dissipation can end. The realization that out of psychological conflict and suffering can come intelligence, if it is not 'run from'. (The not-escaping is intelligence?)

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 28 May 2019.

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Wed, 29 May 2019 #18
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1272 posts in this forum Offline

one wrote:
What is desire ? What is the nature of desire? Is it thought?

Thought is pleasure. That is why people worship it. Thought is desire ,fear,greed,despair, hope. Thought is emotion but never love. Thought is the known and love is the unknown. To live in the unknown is love and to live in the known and thought is misery.
Most people prefer to live in thought and suffer.

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Wed, 29 May 2019 #19
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti:
...the question of whether here, in this community, each one of us is
flowering, and growing inwardly. Or are we each following a certain narrow
groove, so that at the end of our life we will realize that we have never taken the opportunity to flower completely, and regret it for the rest of our life?

What am I doing in life? How am I living? How do I spend each day? Is there an aliveness, a vitality, a "flowering?" Or is there a pattern, a "groove," out of which I never look?

This is an invitation by K to really examine your life, isn't it? Enough with abstract theory. Bottom line is you. It's up to you to decide what is really important and then to find out if you are living that. And if not, why?

I really wonder, if one of us had posted like the K quote above that begins this thread, if we wouldn't be pounced on: What do you mean "flower?" Aren't you projecting an ideal? Don't you have an idea about "flowering" that is in the future rather than what is right now? And so on. Don't we often react to each other with knee jerk, superficial application of K principles, rather than sensitive and careful understanding?

But since it is a K quote there is deference. Which means, obviously, taking him as an authority.

It is important to look at your life, to take stock, isn't it? What do you want to do with the time you have? Is it possible to flower, to be energetically alive and responsive, without making that an ideal? What is your relationship to pattern, to groove? Is it necessary to break out of repetition or can there be discovery even while outwardly there is apparent regularity?

As always, it's up to you to go into these questions if you find them important.

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Wed, 29 May 2019 #20
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1272 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
What do you mean "flower?" Aren't you projecting an ideal? Don't you have an idea about "flowering" that is in the future rather than what is right now?

If you think positive you will have an idea about flowering which is formed by your desire.

idiot ? wrote:
But since it is a K quote there is deference. Which means, obviously, taking him as an authority.

k said he is not your authority and that is a fact.

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Thu, 30 May 2019 #21
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I really wonder, if one of us had posted like the K quote above that begins this thread, if we wouldn't be pounced on: What do you mean "flower?" Aren't you projecting an ideal? Don't you have an idea about "flowering" that is in the future rather than what is right now? And so on. Don't we often react to each other with knee jerk, superficial application of K principles, rather than sensitive and careful understanding?

I must say that the same thing crossed my mind when I started this thread.

I find the question of whether there is some sort of inward flowering taking place to be a very interesting one. It throws up the following questions: Do we have some understanding of Krishnamurti's teachings beyond a purely intellectual one? Are we actually living the teachings, at least to some extent?

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Thu, 30 May 2019 #22
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5646 posts in this forum Online

Sean Hen wrote:
Do we have some understanding of Krishnamurti's teachings beyond a purely intellectual one? Are we actually living the teachings, at least to some extent?

I wouldn't hesitate to answer: No and No to the above questions however rhetorical they might be. Recently I reread a Krishnamurti and Dr Bohm dialogue entitled THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY. A short record of two talks three years after the dialogues between K and Bohm that make up THE ENDING OF TIME. Both books deal with whether Humanity will change in time to keep the world environment from collapsing with the loss of most life forms and what that change must be.

The primary change being that mankind must see that thought produced division of nationalism, religion, race and the illusion that each of us has a consciousness separate from the rest of humanity. Will humanity suddenly see the conditioning that makes us believe that, psychologically, we are all separate beings? K points out that this is an illusion that is destroying us and this planet as we know it.

What do you think the chances are that this change in Humanity will happen anytime soon? And we don't have any time left to make the necessary changes. We're screwed my friends.

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Thu, 30 May 2019 #23
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Do we have some understanding of Krishnamurti's teachings beyond a purely intellectual one? Are we actually living the teachings...?

Exactly. Like I said, the quote that begins this thread is an invitation by K to really examine your life. And it's not something to consider once and then toss away. This question can be renewed again and again!

The answer you give to kinfonet people or anyone else is unimportant. What's important is the real answer you find when you honestly look for yourself: at your life, your relationships, your activities. Is there an aliveness of freedom, transformation, love? Or is there groove, mechanical reaction, dreary carrying on through the same old, same old? Is there a wave of sadness, of loneliness, of fear?

Real transformation is not an endpoint. It is constant renewal, right now.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 30 May 2019.

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Fri, 31 May 2019 #24
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1272 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Is it possible to flower, to be energetically alive and responsive, without making that an ideal? What is your relationship to pattern, to groove? Is it necessary to break out of repetition or can there be discovery even while outwardly there is apparent regularity?

As always, it's up to you to go into these questions if you find them important.

Is it not about each one of us being indifferent ?

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Fri, 31 May 2019 #25
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I wouldn't hesitate to answer: No and No to the above questions however rhetorical they might be

Hi Jack. Thanks to your answer to the questions, "Do we have some understanding of Krishnamurti's teachings beyond a purely intellectual one? Are we actually living the teachings, at least to some extent?".

My further questions are these - Are there moments in the day when we are fully present? If there are, are we living the teachings at these moments?

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Fri, 31 May 2019 #26
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
are we living the teachings at these moments?

What do you mean Sean when you say "living the teachings"?

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Sat, 01 Jun 2019 #27
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1924 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
My further questions are these - Are there moments in the day when we are fully present?

A moment here - a moment there...... so what? That means nothing at all.

Sean Hen wrote:
If there are, are we living the teachings at these moments?

Living the teaching means that they are one's LIFE. At every moment - in every breath.

Don't you think it is time to get serious about all this, and to stop looking for pleasant little 'hints' to entertain ourselves - to give us 'hope' while we paddle around at the edge?

K said everything that could be said. The actual work of going into it, and discovery of the truth of what he pointed out in every moment of one's life demands great seriousness, awareness and deep understanding of the human condition - especially the very things we do not want to see.

Fleeting moments to feel good about? - oh please! Quoting K's words and believing they are the thing? As he said all along - delusive and misguided. The word is never the thing.

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Sat, 01 Jun 2019 #28
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5646 posts in this forum Online

Sean Hen wrote:
Are there moments in the day when we are fully present? If there are, are we living the teachings at these moments?

Did K lay out a formula or pattern of life that he wanted us to adhere to or aspire to? What does "living the teachings" mean and can we "live them"? K pointed out that the psyche, the self, is an illusion invented by thought and that our consciousness is not separate from the consciousness of all of humanity. Consciousness is thought, experience, knowledge, memory. All of it's content as K pointed out.

What happens when all of the above is perceived? Not just intellectually but deeply beyond thought? As long as there is a center, the self, can there be a perception of what K pointed out? K was careful to point out he was not talking about "understanding", which is based on knowledge and memory (thought) and therefore limited, but perception which, apparently, is not linked to thought.

What I have written above and don't claim to have perceived myself is all explained very clearly in the book; THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY a dialogue between J.Krishnamurti and David Bohm. I suggest you read this short and fascinating book yourself or re-read it as the case may be.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 01 Jun 2019.

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Sat, 01 Jun 2019 #29
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1272 posts in this forum Offline

Living the teachings means being a light to yourself (a light to yourself not to others). Society is always secondary. Living the teachings means that do you observe yourself in relationship with things and people without condemnation or you still judge and measure which is not living.
Krishnamurti didn't point out to north or south. He gives awareness to those who are willing to listen. And how many of us know how to listen by now?(I say none). So we don't live the teachings.

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Sat, 01 Jun 2019 #30
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5646 posts in this forum Online

One Self wrote:
Living the teachings means that do you observe yourself in relationship with things and people without condemnation or you still judge and measure which is not living.

Without condemnation and judging and measuring? But isn't that exactly what the above statement is doing? Condemning and judging?

One Self wrote:
Krishnamurti didn't point out to north or south. He gives awareness to those who are willing to listen. And how many of us know how to listen by now?(I say none). So we don't live the teachings.

Do you really think K was giving anyone awareness? Didn't you also write above something about a "light to yourself, not others" then you say K is giving awareness, "light", to others. Do you see how thinking leads to confusion and contradiction?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 01 Jun 2019.

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