Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Can fear actually, really, end in me? From Quiet Space

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Fri, 08 Nov 2019 #1
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Contrary to the way it may seem I don't scour the "Quiet Space" (QS) to finds things to criticize. If I did I would be on here night and day typing away. Like idiot?, I can find better things to do with my time than spend huge amounts of it on this forum.

That said, the above title of this thread, which originally appeared on a thread post started by Clive on the QS Forum, shows a remarkable lack of understanding of what K tirelessly pointed out throughout his life: No Clive, fear can never end in "me". The me, the ego, the center has the same root as fear. Which is, of course, thought. The fear is part of the "me". Fear is an image of thought and so is the me. "Me" can never exist without fear for the above stated reasons.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 10 Nov 2019.

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Fri, 08 Nov 2019 #2
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Thought is the past. Thought is based on knowledge and experience. The past. Fear is psychological and there is physical fear. You're walking in the mountains and you round the corner and there is a mountain lion in the middle of the path. Physical fear. The present. Fear of loosing someone you love. Psychological fear. The present. The person you love may die in the future before you do but the fear is now, present based on thought which is the past. That's clear right? Fear is thought, consciousness is thought. The "me" and "fear" are both part of consciousness which is the accumulation of the past. This is by Jack Pine who admits he doesn't know too much but this much is clear anyway, right? Now if you care to read the following long post it is a very interesting and clear discussion of fear by K and some people at one of the Saanen Talks.

So thought is a movement from the past, the past being collected experience - innumerable experiences which have become knowledge; so knowledge is essentially the past. So thought is a movement from the past, modifies itself in the present and goes on to the future. Right? So, I have found out - you have found out, not me - you have found out for yourself that thought is a movement from the storehouse of the past. So thought is never free. Right? I wonder if you see this! Thought is a movement of the past, therefore of time, and as long as we operate - no, let me put it differently - we have to operate in thought - right? - where knowledge is necessary, we have to operate there - all the technological knowledge, riding a bicycle, this and that - where knowledge is essential, there thought operates. Is it possible for thought to remain there and not enter into other fields? You are following my question? That is, I realise I am afraid - fear; fear of not being, fear of loneliness, fear of not being loved, or fear of loving and losing, fear of death, fear of losing a job - you know, a dozen fears. But basically there is only one fear which expresses itself in multiple ways. So that fear is the movement of thought. Right?
Now, in observing that movement, is the observer different from that, different from that which he observes? Are we meeting something together or not? My word! Because you see, please, if we can go into this one question completely and when you leave the tent, the marquee, you are free of fear - you understand? - it would be a marvellous thing. That will affect the whole consciousness of mankind if you are free. So, please share this thing together; don't let me talk about it but let us journey into the problem together.
You're afraid of something, aren't you? Every human being is, apparently. Now is that fear different from you? Right? I am asking, is that fear different from you?
Q: I hope so.
K: You hope so. (Laughter) Oh lord! Or, that fear is you. Please do let us be a little serious, is that fear you? Of course. Like anger - is anger different from you or you are part of that? Obviously. So fear is part of you, but we have learnt or been educated to separate ourselves from fear, and therefore we say, I'll control it, I'll change it, I will run away from it, all the rest of it comes into being. But if the fear is you, what will you do? You understand the question now?
Q: Yes
Q: I feel that I have to tackle it.
K: Yes, sir.
Q: Are you saying that, or when I hear you say that I and fear is one... and this is my fear. Is that right?
K: No sir, no. First, please, get this one thing clear, at least: as anger is not different from you - which is so obvious isn't it? - is not fear part of you? And if it is part of you, what will you do? We are used to separating fear from ourselves and therefore acting upon fear - suppress it, run away from it, all the rest of it. But when fear is you, action comes to an end. Right? This is very difficult for you to see, because we are so conditioned to this division - me different from fear, and therefore acting upon fear. But we are saying something entirely different - fear is you, therefore, you can't act. Then what happens?
Q: Your talk in the morning is from the past.
Q: We hear you... ought to be in the present?
K: What ought to be implies that you are not looking at what is.
Q: (Inaudible)
K: Thought moves from the past through the present to the future. Thought modifies itself through the present to the future, so thought is still the past. It may modify itself, it may change itself, it may put on different coating, different clothing, whatever it is, colouring - it is still the past movement. Please, what is the time?
Q: Twelve thirty.
K: Half past twelve? Already? (Laughter)
No, please, this is very important, I want to stick to this one thing this morning, if I may. As most human beings are afraid and they have accepted fear as part of their life, and therefore live in darkness, therefore live in a kind of paralytic state, and being afraid, all forms of neurotic habits, neurotic activities come, it's very important, if there is to be transformation in the human consciousness, that fear must be totally eliminated. And we say it is possible. It is only possible when conflict between the person who says, I am afraid and I will do something about fear, when that conflict comes to an end, that is when the division comes to an end. And that division is artificial, it's an illusion. What is actuality is, the fear is part of you, therefore you cannot do a thing about it - right? - psychologically. Therefore your whole attention undergoes a change. Before, attention was given to the conflict - suppressing, denying, running away. But now when your fear is you, your whole attention has undergone a change. That is, you have much greater energy to look at this fear. Before you ran away, you suppressed it, did all kinds of things to it; now, fear is part of you, therefore you observe it with a totally different attention. You get this? Please get this!
Q: You can only look at fear if it is separate, surely.
K: When you look at fear, the gentleman says, then it's apart from you. When fear is you what are you looking at? Do please watch it. Don't answer me. Do look at it. When fear is you what are you looking at? You are not looking at fear, you are that. So, your attention has changed.
Q: (Inaudible)
K: We are coming to that. Attention has changed. Right? Please see that simple thing.
Q: Who is looking at me?
K: I am not looking at you, sir; I am looking at fear. (Laughter) Oh, Jesus - waste of time.
Q: But wouldn't it be eliminating a part of me?
K: Yes, you are eliminating part of you - which you are afraid of. Part of you is fear. Right? With all the complications of fear. Part of you is pleasure - with all the varieties of pleasure. Part of you is sorrow - different types of sorrow. So, all that is you; you are not different from all that, are you? Or you might think you are god. If you think you are not all that, then you are something different from all that, and being 'different' you are something super-human. This is the old Hindu philosophy that says, 'I am not that. We are the soul, we have something precious inside, we are part of the divine, we are part of the perfect, we are part of the archetype' - you know, all that. So, I personally refuse to accept all that. We must begin with doubt. Right? And when you begin with doubt, completely begin with that, then you end up with complete certainty. But we begin with certainties and end up in nothing. (Laughter) Please give your attention to this question.
As long as there is division between you and fear, then there is conflict, there is wastage of energy - by suppressing it, running away from it, talking about it, going to the analysts and so on and on and on and on. But whereas, when you see the truth that you are that fear, your whole energy is gathered in this attention to look at that thing. Now what is that thing which we call fear? Is it a word which has brought fear, or is it independent of the word? You are following this? If it is the word, the word being the associations with the past - I recognise it because I have had fear before. You understand? I look at that fear though it is part of me because I name it, and I name it because I have known it to happen before. So, by naming it I have strengthened it. I wonder if you see this. So, is it possible to observe without naming it? If you name it, it's already in the past, right? If you don't name it, it's something entirely different, isn't it? So is it possible not to name that thing which you have called 'fear' , therefore free of the past so that you can look. You cannot look if you are prejudiced. If I am prejudiced against you, I can't look at you, I am looking at my prejudice. So is it possible not to name the thing at all? And then if you do not name it, is it fear? Or has it undergone a change, because you have given all your attention to it. You understand? I wonder if you get it. When you name it you are not giving attention to it, when you try to suppress it you are not giving your attention to it, when you try to run away from it you are not giving your attention to it - whereas when you observe that fear is you, and not name it - what takes place? What takes place? You are doing it now. What takes place?
Q: It's an emotion.
K: Wait, it is a sensation, isn't it? A feeling which is sensation. Please watch it, it's a sensation, isn't it? All feelings are sensations. I put a pin in there, and all the rest of it. So it's a sensation. What's wrong with sensation? Nothing is wrong with sensation, is it? But when sensation plus thought, which becomes desire with its images, then the trouble begins. I wonder if you understand all this! This is too much probably in the morning. (Laughter)
You know, this is part of meditation. You understand? This is really part of meditation. Not to sit under a tree and just think about something or other, or try to concentrate, or try to repeat some mantra or some word - Coca Cola - or something or other (laughter) - but this is really meditation because you are enquiring very, very, very deeply into yourself. And you can enquire very deeply only when you are really without any motive, when you are free to look. And you cannot look if you separate yourself from that which you are looking at. Then you have complete energy to look. It is only when there is no attention that fear comes into being. You understand? When there is complete attention which is complete, total energy then there is no fear, is there? It's only the inattentive person that is afraid, not the person who is completely attentive at the moment when that feeling arises. That feeling is a part of sensation. Sensation is normal, natural. It's like looking at a tree, looking at people, you know - sensation. But when sensation plus thought, which is desire with its images, then begins all our problems. You understand? This is simple. Right? Now can you look at your fear - be serious for five minutes! Can you look at your fear, whatever it is; not separate yourself from that fear, but you are that fear, and therefore you give your total attention to that fear. Then is there fear?
Q: No.
K: Then walk out of this tent without fear. Don't say no and then go outside full of fears.
Do you want to ask questions about this?
Q: Sir, I did not grasp, in the beginning you said it is more our responsibility than yours. What did you mean by it?
K: Sir, the word 'responsibility' - what does it mean to be responsible. To respond adequately, isn't it? The word 'responsibility' comes from the root 'respond', to respond. Now, do you respond adequately to this question of fear? Or, do you respond with all your tradition, with your culture, you follow? - all that conditioning and therefore which prevents you from responding fully to this question?
As we said, this is part of meditation. You don't know what meditation is, but this is part of it. When the mind is not afraid then only is it capable of entering into something totally different, but being afraid, to try to meditate only leads to illusion, to all kinds of deceptive experiences. So meditation is the investigation into your consciousness, into yourself; and see if there can be freedom from that, from the fear, and to understand the nature and the structure of pleasure, because we all want pleasure. To understand it, to go into it, to find out what is accurate in pleasure, what is right in pleasure - enjoyment, joy. And also to enquire into the whole problem of fear, not only your particular fear, sorrow, but the sorrow of mankind. All that is involved in meditation which is to discover the truth in yourself, to discover the truth which is a light to yourself so that you don't follow anybody.
That's enough for today, isn't it? Is that enough for today?

J. Krishnamurti Talk and Dialogues Saanen 1967 1st Public Talk 9th July 1967

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 08 Nov 2019.

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Sat, 09 Nov 2019 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

This quote from K was taken from the above referenced quote: This is for those you are either too lazy or are otherwise unable to simply drop their beliefs and read what K says in the above long quote.

K: Thought moves from the past through the present to the future. Thought modifies itself through the present to the future, so thought is still the past. It may modify itself, it may change itself, it may put on different coating, different clothing, whatever it is, coloring - it is still the past movement. Fear is not separate from thinking just as the "me" is not separate from thinking.

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Sat, 09 Nov 2019 #4
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1449 posts in this forum Offline

Jack,your illness cannot be cured by Krishnamurti as it hasn't for the past fifty years. Go and see a psychologist . He may be able to help you with medications. Words have become poisonous to you. Give it up.

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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 #5
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Jack,your illness cannot be cured by Krishnamurti as it hasn't for the past fifty years. Go and see a psychologist . He may be able to help you with medications. Words have become poisonous to you. Give it up.

What a strange way to reply to a quote by K regarding thought that I posted in post #3. And you talk about others needing mental help? Oh and by the way, another thing you are ignorant about is that psychologists are not medical doctors and, therefore, cannot prescribe medicines. Psychiatrists are medical doctors and they can prescribe medicines.

You are the most ignorant person I think that has ever been on this forum. Almost everything you write is confused, erroneous drivel.

Your bitterness, anger and hatred are probably dissolving what brain you may have left.

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