Last week was the 81st anniversary of K's declaration of independence from organisations.

I was just reading once more the speach K gave on August 2 1929 on the dissolution of the Order of the Star. There are some amazing passages in it which I believe worthy of new discussion, for those who wish it. I will start with the first quote that attracted my attention. What are we to make of this 81 years on? (Italics mine)

"As I have said, I have only one purpose: to make man free, to urge him towards freedom, to help him to break away from all limitations, for that alone will give him eternal happiness, will give him the unconditioned realization of the self."

What are you waiting for?

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Sun, 08 Aug 2010.

Paul Davidson wrote:
I will start with the first quote that attracted my attention. What are we to make of this 81 years on?

It is important to see this speech of K's in the context of his life.

At the time he was heavily conditioned by the Theosophists, and this was the beginning of his breaking away from, and understanding of, his own conditioning.

K did not arrive at his understanding of humanity, with all the conditioning and disorder, by some kind of magical osmosis. The teaching evolved as this understanding manifested.

K would NEVER have made that statement - or anything like it - at the end of his life.

But the self is always looking for its own excuses to remain in control and unconditionally realize itself, isn't it? :D

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
The teaching evolved as this understanding manifested.

Yes,that's it exactly,thank you!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
this was the beginning of his breaking away from, and understanding of, his own conditioning.

If above statement is right, then it means understanding comes step by step, breaking of conditioning is a process, then there is possibility that this process of breaking conditioning may not have been completed till his death, then it is possible that he had spoken from conditioning till death, quite possible!, who knows( Except P)

I don't know

Paul Davidson wrote:
"As I have said, I have only one purpose: to make man free, to urge him towards freedom, to help him to break away from all limitations, for that alone will give him eternal happiness, will give him

words are not thing.What K spoken is not important.Important is, that he spoken.He spoken so that we may hear between words, he written so that we may read between gap, he spoken silence not word.

But..

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
possibility that this process of breaking conditioning may not have been completed till his death

He had said (words to the effect) that total awakening hadn't come until he was in his 50's.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

Dean R. Smith wrote:
He had said (words to the effect) that total awakening hadn't come until he was in his 50's.

Do you believe him! May be it was same conditioned mind who spoken in 30, at the time of dis..of star..Why to believe on this and not on that?

I don't know

It's a no brainer, dhirendra.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

Dean R. Smith wrote:
It's a no brainer, dhirendra.

If it means that it is beyond the brain then I agree, then there is no place for any logic or argument, then this is not important what he said..No brainer!

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
then it means understanding comes step by step, breaking of conditioning is a process,

Are you not confusing first analysis and then understanding with true understanding which is non verbal and instantaneous ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Are you not confusing first analysis and then understanding with true understanding

no

I don't know

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
But the self is always looking for its own excuses to remain in control and unconditionally realize itself, isn't it? :D

Also when self looks for the ways to surrender its control, then also it is becoming stronger,isn't it ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Dean R. Smith wrote:
He had said (words to the effect) that total awakening hadn't come until he was in his 50's

yes according to P.J.'s biography Krishnamurti was to see this in the years of 47,and 48.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

RICK LEIN wrote:
yes according to P.J.'s biography Krishnamurti was to see this in the years of 47,and 48.

Hi Rick

Then I should read his teaching after 50.:) K against K:)before 50 and after 50

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
Then I should read his teaching after 50.:) K against K:)

Perhaps just reading it in the context it was given,would suffice?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

dhirendra singh wrote:
no

This is good that you have no confusion about both kinds of 'understanding! So, now can you clarify your reason/logic that made you write that P H used 'understanding' in the sense of a step by step process ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

RICK LEIN wrote:
Perhaps

Hi sir

'Perhaps' is appropriate word for this situation.Understanding one's life is all, with K or without K, it doesn't matter.

I don't know

Paul Davidson wrote:
There are some amazing passages in it which I believe worthy of new discussion,

Paul

In what direction you want this discussion to move ? A comparision of what K said earlier with his later day teachings ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Dr.sudhir sharma Sun, 08 Aug 2010.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
now can you clarify your reason

Dear Sudhir,

Why you depend on me:) K is sufficient, ask him

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
Why you depend on me:) K is sufficient, ask him

You want me to depend on K ?:-) Don't reply but don't misguide
also :-)

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
You want me to depend on K ?:-) Don't reply but don't misguide also :-)

But you are already depending on him, guidance is always mis- in such matter, so never ask for it:)

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
But you are already depending on him,

Why do you say this ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Why do you say this ?

Example: you regularly explain his quote, as Indian Pandits explain sloka of Gita, very punctually:)

I don't know

dhirendra singh wrote:
Example: you regularly explain his quote, as Indian Pandits explain sloka of Gita, very punctually:)

You are wrong here. I do not explain but respond to the quote with my understanding in the matter. For explanation full K quote is available.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Paul
In what direction you want this discussion to move ? A comparision of what K said earlier with his later day teachings ?

A good question Sudhir. One thing I do know is that all this bickering will get us nowhere. (Now some bright spark will interject, 'ah, so you want to get somewhere . . . '

Well I honestly thought it worthwhile to study what K did say in that speech rather than rushing to write it off so quickly. Remember, this is one of the most important and most public speeches he made in his life, one that he is known by, and he made it after much deliberation.

Just see the language, how carefully drawn it is. And see what effect it had! K lived and taught for another 55 years which is plenty of time to have revisited that crucial and renowned declaration of independence, had he wished to correct himself, which he apparently did not.

What I want to do is inquire into the meanings, not make a point or gush opinions or comparisons. Would anyone else care to join in this?

So, what would he have meant at that time, in that context, by the expression 'the realization of self?' He must have spent some time on the correct wording. Are there any other clues on his thinking on this, from that period?

What are you waiting for?

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Sun, 08 Aug 2010.

Paul Davidson wrote:
... the unconditioned realization of the self."

"It is the experiencing of what is without naming it that brings about freedom from what is."

... from COMMENTARIES ON LIVING/SERIES I/CHAPTER 22-'THE SELF'

Let's not waste time on this sad attempt to reinforce a belief.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
It is important to see this speech of K's in the context of his life.

Sorry Patricia, contextual seeing is out, what else do you suggest?

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K would NEVER have made that statement - or anything like it - at the end of his life.

Once transformed by insight, K's words varied, but the underlieing message did not. it is these authoritative proclamations of yours, that endanger K's life work, please stop.

RICK LEIN wrote:
Perhaps just reading it in the context it was given,would suffice?

Or, we could explore the phenomenon called "context". and not worry so much about things we have no clue about, other than as "visions".