I thought we can discuss meditation here as Krishnamurti defined meditation anew.Is meditation a system? What is the beginning of meditation?

What is meditation but a word? For some, the very word represents a system with definite results.

I can't quite remember how K defined meditation, but I believe it was based around experience, moments of grace, so it had no definite results. This is something that cannot be learned or sought, nor can there be any expectation.

K said in the talks with Prof Anderson, something like, "This is meditation, what we are doing now" by which he meant when one puts one's whole self into the inquiry. But this was not a definition, it was an example. Beware of defining it!

I have always been mystified when he talked in later talks about meditation reminding us that the word itself means to measure and always concluding with 'meditation is not measurement.' There was a deep paradox.

It occurs to me that he is describing a state from where one can get the true measure of something, without measuring that something according to memory, comparison or through some intellectual ploy. And this does imply the presence of a wholeness of mind rather than the fragmentated state we are usually in. He appreciated that in the talks with Anderson, his host listened with his whole being.

I am not sure that for me I feel comfortable with using that word meditation for that state because it conjures up too many other awful meanings. But, the word is not the thing.

What are you waiting for?

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Is meditation a system?

No, it is not and yet it has significant relationship with them.

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
What is the beginning of meditation?

'what is not meditation ?' inquiring in to this could be the starting point of the journey of meditation.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Dr.sudhir sharma Wed, 27 Oct 2010.

That's a good point. Thinking is not meditation, to begin, yes?

I have found a fabulous quotation for us.K talking at the National Laboratory Research Center at Los Alamos,New Mexico on 20 March 1984 said;

Quote "Meditation is not conscious meditation.What we have been taught is conscious,deliberate meditation,sitting crossed-legged or lying down or repeating certain phrases,which is deliberate conscious effort to meditate.The speaker says such meditation is nonsense.It is part of desire.Desiring to have a peaceful mind is the same as desiring a good house or a good dress.Conscious meditation destroys,prevents,the other form of meditation." Unquote.

Here K says conscious meditation is desire!

This post was last updated by Kapila Kulasinghe Thu, 28 Oct 2010.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
No, it is not and yet it has significant relationship with them.

It is not a system.That is my understanding too.But what is the relationship with them Dr.?

This is very interesting if we can explore.There are meditation centers here & a whole host of systems are being practiced in the name of meditation! In all the places-without exception!!

mike christani wrote:
Thinking is not meditation, to begin, yes?

Yes, but why ? Which factor will save it from becoming a concept ? What will bring it in to the stream of meditation ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
It is not a system.That is my understanding too.But what is the relationship with them Dr.?

When the presence of one is the absence of another, then they become closely related, No ?

When one understands that there can be no system of meditation, then what is one to do to loosen the grip of the system on one's psyche ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Is meditation a system?

No. Any system is thought.

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
What is the beginning of meditation?

The beginning is the end.

Paul Davidson wrote:
I have always been mystified when he talked in later talks about meditation reminding us that the word itself means to measure and always concluding with 'meditation is not measurement.' There was a deep paradox.

Meditation is not measurement. To measure is to compare. To compare is to separate this from that. To separate is the activity of thought. Meditation is immeasurable.

Rajiv Fonn wrote:
K said that meditation was understanding. More specifically self-knowledge. Are you fully aware of your daily activities?

This is K teaching. We are not restricted to sitting cross-legged in a loin cloth and chanting a mantra. The entire day is awareness opportunity, especially relationship. In relationship, I can see my greed, my cunning, my one-up-manship, my false humility, my rebellion. I discover my friction.

Although this is meditation, there still seems to be a self. What is that? There still is the mental reminder I give myself to be aware in the moment. Is that not a method? And while there's awareness from time to time throughout the day in any posture, has quiet, open sitting been too quickly, too casually cast away? K sat with a straight back every morning before the sun rose, in utter silence. And yet how quickly we avoid this simple, beautiful posture.

Self-knowledge. Vital. Not final.

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Here K says conscious meditation is desire.

Much, perhaps most, of what we do is for a reason. We have an intention, an idea or an ideal. We initiate action towards it. Meditation is the opposite of doing something for a reason. It is the actual.

K talked about meditation to debunk all the usual ideas and beliefs about it. To think or talk about it in positive terms is to violate the spirit of it, i.e., emptiness, vacancy, no-thingness.

nick carter wrote:
i.e., emptiness, vacancy, no-thingness.

Meditation is when there is no centre.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Fri, 29 Oct 2010.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
journey of meditation.

may i question this?
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Do not listen to learn, but listen with self-abandonment so that ...

This much is meditation. listening is meditation.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
When one understands that there can be no system of meditation, then what is one to do to loosen the grip of the system on one's psyche ?

Nothing! Then you will not have anything to do with a system.

So Dr., you meant the relation of non relation! I understand.

idiot ? wrote:
No. Any system is thought

I thought this is very important because if we want to learn what meditation is we are invariably introduced to some system or other.But any system is thought out-produced by thought.And thought is limited as we know & so it's product is too limited.So the outcome of a system is necessarily limited & therefore is the cause of conflict-so it cannot bring about peace!

idiot ? wrote:
Although this is meditation, there still seems to be a self. What is that? There still is the mental reminder I give myself to be aware in the moment. Is that not a method?

Is that a method? Awareness slips away & we give ourselves a mental reminder.But we are not resuming a repetitive system.It's awareness of unawareness.No?

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Is that a method? Awareness slips away & we give ourselves a mental reminder.But we are not resuming a repetitive system.It's awareness of unawareness.No?

No. It's a system. It's done with intention. Is meditation intentional, premeditated?

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

idiot ? wrote: No. Any system is thought

I thought this is very important because if we want to learn what meditation is we are invariably introduced to some system or other.But any system is thought out-produced by thought.And thought is limited as we know & so it's product is too limited.So the outcome of a system is necessarily limited & therefore is the cause of conflict-so it cannot bring about peace!

-

nick carter wrote:
Is meditation intentional, premeditated?

A couple of more things about this:

First, any system involves a crutch thought. For examples, "I must repeat my mantra." or "I must return to the breath." or to body sensation or whatever. The system is the use of a thought to prod or coerce the mind into a certain direction. Advocates will say that the thought prod is eventually dropped. But we can see the control of thought or eventual habit in the technique. How is that freedom? It's not. It's self limiting.

That brings up the second point. Systems or methods of meditation involve narrowing the mind. Is truth exclusion? Or isn't rather truth inclusion? Real silence is not a forced narrowing. It is openness, glass attention.

So a natural silence is not coerced. When you see a beautiful tree or a bird in flight, you naturally relax and momentarily lose a sense of self and other. Such a moment, outside of time, is meditation.

For many of us, the bird in flight non-moment is rare. So we ask, How can such moments be stretched or nurtured to recur? And we run smack into, "There is no method." We're stuck between a rock and a hard place. It's as if K has taunted us, telling us about the beauty of choiceless meditation, and then telling us there's no way to get there. We're stuck with our busy, divisive brains while he blissfully walks in beauty.

So K sneaks in some methods. They are as un-methody as possible. But still, if there's some intentionality, there's a little method in there.

Self knowledge, which is pretty much what others call mindfulness, which is attending to the moment, relationship and any reactions that arise, is a non-method method. I begin with a thought, with an intention, to pay attention to the moment. Then awareness is. In time, there is more awareness. There is awareness of unawareness, which instantly transforms into awareness. There is observation of the self and the nearly infinite diabolical ways that it imposes onto the present. This understanding of the twisting, tyrannical self and it's subtleties is vital. And the self, which is past conditioning in reaction, is seen in ANY conflict that arises.

Another non-method method that K introduces is to sit quietly. If thoughts arise, they are watched like leaves in a stream. Or another one is to follow the thought all the way to its end.

If we find ourselves with a busy mind, making choices, there's no point in pretending that it isn't so. We can choose to sit in silence and see what happens. Perhaps thought will happen. Or perhaps, automatically, silent openness flowers. The choice to begin is a thought. We're stuck with our thoughts and choices anyway. But something choiceless, something boundless, may happen in a natural, unforced way. Just sitting, thoughts may drop. Please, everyone, consider this exploration. To sit yourself down may well be, at first, a choice.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 29 Oct 2010.

idiot ? wrote:
Please, everyone, consider this exploration. To sit yourself down may well be, at first, a choice.

Yes, I second the motion. Put the motion in neutral and watch the gears grind.

ganesan balachandran wrote:
may i question this? gb

Life is an eternal movement. Can meditation be otherwise, gb ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
When one understands that there can be no system of meditation, then what is one to do to loosen the grip of the system on one's psyche ?

K K- Nothing!

This 'nothing' is not a simple thing to do, is it, Sir ?

What is the state of the mind which is capable of doing 'nothing' when confronted with a system of meditation ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Dr.sudhir sharma Sat, 30 Oct 2010.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
What is the state of the mind which is capable of doing 'nothing' when confronted with a system of meditation ?

The "mind which is capable of doing nothing" is capable of doing nothing regardless of what it's "confronted with". The question is whether the doctor's - or anyone's mind - is capable of doing nothing.

nick carter wrote:
The "mind which is capable of doing nothing" is capable of doing nothing regardless of what it's "confronted with". The question is whether the doctor's - or anyone's mind - is capable of doing nothing.

Nick, the question is related to the 'state' and not 'action' of such a mind ? When one is in a hurry to react, the reply is usually very superficial and does nothing more than entertain.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Nick, the question is related to the 'state' and not 'action' of such a mind ? When one is in a hurry to react, the reply is usually very superficial and does nothing more than entertain.

Now you're making it even more confusing. If doing nothing isn't an action, it isn't "doing".

Doing nothing is an action. It's an intelligent response.

nick carter wrote:
Doing nothing is an action. It's an intelligent response.

True, but does this response has any connection to the clarity of observation, stillness and queitness of the mind ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
True, but does this response has any connection to the clarity of observation, stillness and queitness of the mind ?

The action of doing nothing is "clarity of observation, stillness and quietness of mind".

Nick,

You wrote, "Yes, I second the motion. Put the motion in neutral and watch the gears grind."

Gears do not grind when an engine is in neutral. They grind only when they are engaged, or partially engaged. Do you want to correct your comment, based on this fact?

You wrote, "K talked about meditation to debunk all the usual ideas and beliefs about it. To think or talk about it in positive terms is to violate the spirit of it . . ."

How do you know Krishnamurti had this motive when he talked about meditation? Debunking may have been the effect, but you can't attribute the motive, "to debunk" to his talking about meditation.

On the contrary, Krishnmurti had a great number of positive things to say about meditation. There are quotations on the subject all over the place. For example, he said, " . . . right meditation gives perfume, depth, significance to life . . . "* I suggest that you look up Jiddu Krishnamurti quotes on the web to find any number of his positive references to meditation. Are you saying that by doing so he was thereby violating the spirit of emptiness, vacancy, no-thingness?

• Jiddu Krishnamurti on Concentration and Meditation

max

max greene wrote:
Gears do not grind when an engine is in neutral. They grind only when they are engaged, or partially engaged. Do you want to correct your comment, based on this fact?

No, it wasn't meant to be taken literally. My point is that when you sit down to meditate, the stream of consciousness, one's contents, keeps going.

max greene wrote:
I suggest that you look up Jiddu Krishnamurti quotes on the web to find any number of his positive references to meditation. Are you saying that by doing so he was thereby violating the spirit of emptiness, vacancy, no-thingness?

Yes. I don't think he should've said anything about it. In fact, I think he should've taken a vow of silence after he dissolved The Order of The Star. Then there'd be no K-cult and no forums like this. Just keep in mind, though, that none of this is happening NOW, so it's all quite meaningless.