Many years since I have been on Kinfonet. And boy, what years they have been!

First a very quick synopsis: I was an avid K-reader for some years and he was the only teacher to ever have any real impact on me and my psyche (I believe his teachings have a direct impact on the brain - mostly for the better. Once you read his revelations about life, there is no turning back. But, ultimately you have to make your own mind up about how far you wish to take this). Then there was the 'K knows best' phase - where everything was compared to what 'K would do or think' (the very thing he warned against). Then the seeking for 'bliss' - the very thing he warned against, yet at the same time dangled like a carrot of gold before our very eyes. Then the 'beating yourself up phase' - well, if we have such 'shoddy little minds' then we can't feel too good about ourselves can we? Then came the clarity - the flow. Being able to see thought and its movement so clearly, so revelatory and so beautiful. I felt special and part of a special sect of people ('only a few of us are doing this', I thought, 'most people don't get it').....

Then, the disillusionment. I hadn't really changed - not the mutation of the brain cells K talked about. You see, I couldn't get rid of the 'me', the 'ego' that K seemed to despise so much - and taught me to despise. I stopped reading. I lost my spiritual path. I became enticed by the 'pleasures' of modern living - the food, the drugs, the high flying job, the money. Then came the breakdown. And how! Uncontrollable fear, depression, hospitalisation...and ultimately transformation. It came from nowhere. No effort. No will. My connection with the Divine rekindled. The sacred silence refound. The years of working with K most probably had had some lasting effect on me (mostly positive - although not without challenge - in terms of enabling me to see myself clearly), but this was totally uninvited. Yet...

And so we come to my point: What I learnt through my healing process was that YOU CANNOT GET RID OF THE EGO - THE ME. K may not have said it directly, but he insinuated this was possible throughout his teaching. While K's teaching still played a great part in my healing process (I didn't read him anymore, but now so much of it started to make sense - how the 'me' was constructed - all its different aspects), I started to realise that he may have misled us - or we misunderstood him. The 'ego' is NOT something to be despised, ridiculed, obliterated - it is a 'tool' (as K says himself) and an important human function that needs to be brought in line with the SOUL'S JOURNEY AND PURPOSE. When it is aligned with your soul and whole being then the 'big problems' cease and you are living your truth. And yes, the SOUL DOES EXIST. Don't let K dissuade you. Spirituality DOES exist. The masters and spiritual guides DO exist. The Divine DOES exist. K may have resisted all this publicly, but anyone who has researched his life know all about the 'process' and his esoteric inner life (see Aryel Sanat's book - the best book on K in my humble opinion - you may have read it). I believe he did not want us to think about, or get in touch with, these things because he did not want to distract us from his main focus: the 'me'. He had GREAT things to teach about this. But I believe we need to bring K and his teaching into our modern world.

So, time to stop the ego-bashing. Time to allow K's teaching to have its rightful place in the wider sphere of spiritual teachings - he is NOT the only world teacher. There are many. I am one of them. You are one of them. You are your own best teacher (he said himself 'read yourself as a book'). Align with your soul's purpose and you will hear the voice of your ego like never before. YOUR VOICE. A voice so pure, so undeniable. Time to stop kidding ourselves. No more trying to 'get rid of the ego' (just more of the same anyway). Time to live your life. Time to be. Time to love.

Blessings

This post was last updated by Michael Gorof Fri, 12 Nov 2010.

I just want to add that these are just my experiences - and only mine. My experiences (e.g. my breakdown) were destined as they were part of my soul journey and were NOT a result of having read K. Everyone will react to K's teachings differently and everyone has their own journey. Nothing to fear - just to find out for yourself, learn and enjoy life. Just wanted to make that clear. Peace.

Firs of all Michael I am sorry to hear that you have suffered a breakdown.

Michael Gorof wrote:
The 'ego' is NOT something to be despised, ridiculed,

Did K say to to despise anything? K said to observe ourselves without judgment, condemnation etc.Despising,ridiculing is condemning isn't it? This can result in a very serious conflict within isn't it?

Michael Gorof wrote:
You are your own best teacher

K did say you are your own teacher.The Buddha too said this but Buddhists attribute that only to the Buddha.K talked about an observation without the past so all what we have read & heard including what he said is removed-so learning in this manner you are your own teacher-otherwise it's not learning but a remoulding or a reformation through your own conditioning.

Michael can I tell you something I do.If I am not clear of something I simply say to myself I do not know that.Now you have talked about a soul.Do you know of such a thing if you remove everything you have read & heard about it? That's what I do.If I do not see independently of all the knowledge I have of it I say to myself simply I do not know that.Then I don't confuse myself.

Thank you for your personal revelations Michael.

I think that we can only be misled if we are first willing to be led. And that is true of internal authority as much as external authority. For me, if I were to take internal authority and make of it a soul and follow its purpose, I would be on the wrong track, another root back into confusion.

I understand it rather simply as follows: Somehow I am not able to approach life fully and so miss understanding it. There seems to be an inbuilt need to understand which is not satisfied. Therefore I retain that which has not been undertood as memory, hoping to complete my understanding of each experience by the accumulation of future experiences. Thus memory becomes instead of a sharp tool for action, a bulging store-house of confusion. The accounts manager of that store-house is called Mr. Thought.

It is the effort to control the confusion that creates a central authoritative voice called ego, the boss.

My only task is to understand the confusion and thus, cancel it. I do not have to cancel the ego, it is only a division of labour within the confusion, a product rather than the source. Neither do I have to stop thought. I have to release it from the unnatural job I have given it, the endless druggery of keeping accounts.

Now, how do I bring myself together to address life freshly each day? That is my only soul purpose, the need to understand life as a lived thing, day to day and moment to moment.

Spirits, masters, souls . . . I don't know and it is irrelevent to me. It all is tinged with the desire for authority, whether it exists or not.

What are you waiting for?

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Fri, 12 Nov 2010.

Michael Gorof wrote:
Everyone will react to K's teachings differently and everyone has their own journey

Hello Michael,

Thankyou very much for sharing the above 'synopsis' of what undertaking the task of 'living the teachings' incurred and where you are now with all of this...

My own 'acquaintance' with Krishnamurti's teachings is relatively recent and so I am grappling with some of the elements which this account of your journey brings to light.

Peace, Katy

I don't know either !

This post was last updated by Katy 7 (account deleted) Fri, 12 Nov 2010.

Paul Davidson wrote:
That is my only soul purpose, the need to understand life as a lived thing, day to day and moment to moment.

Soul purpose and/or 'sole' purpose!:)

Regards, Katy

I don't know either !

Kapila - many thanks for your insightful response. First, please don't feel the need to say you are sorry I 'suffered a breakdown' - perhaps I had not made this clear in my post. While it was awful at the time, it has been the best gift ever given to me and was part of my destiny. I am now on the path I was meant to be on.

Let me just be clear - we all have our own unique paths and they are all legitimate. I totally respect your words and am not competing with anyone for the 'truth'. We can only find things out for ourselves - the greatest thing K taught me. At the same time, we are indeed all in this together and it is important to share our experiences. All I am doing is sharing my experiences with K after many years and my recent healing experience.

No, K did not say to 'despise' anything, but let's be honest. Firstly, as I said I can only speak for myself and indeed it may be me that misunderstood his words. But all I can give you is my honest view on the man, his teachings and how they impacted on me as a human being. Most of those I know who have come to K's teachings have experienced this inner 'conflict' you talk about created by his words. His words on the 'me' are very harsh and VERY judgemental. He says to observe 'without judgement' yet judges us in one fell swoop ('shoddy little minds' etc.). This is not to say there are not big problems created by the ego in society and life (which is what he was concerned with and where his strength as a teacher was), but there is much contradiction in his approach. This does not mean to say the teachings have no merit, they have GREAT merit, but often his words are outdated, patriarchal, confusing, authoritative while telling us not to follow any authority! It is only something you can answer for yourself as to whether you are critical of yourself/your ego because of K, and whether you are chasing after some carrot of 'no ego' he has dangled before you?

On the soul, you say: 'Do you know of such a thing if you remove everything you have read & heard about it?' All I can speak from is my own experience. Not what I have 'read', 'heard' or 'believe'. Just what I have experienced. If I take away all thought and knowledge, then yes it is difficult for me to say 'I know of the soul' (we have to use thought, and words such as 'soul', to communicate). But that would be to deny my experience. In order to heal from what I experienced, I had to work directly with the Divine to retrieve a part of my soul that was missing - called a soul retrieval. Because this happened to me I have to answer that I know of the soul and know of the Divine. Again, one can only speak from one's own experience. Not from what one has 'read' or 'heard'. Soul is just a word. My main message is there is more to it than just 'watching and cancelling thought' (which is what much of K's teachings were about) and it would be foolish to believe that one can get rid of this 'me' - it is about aligning this 'me' (which is like the spokesperson for the soul, for the Divine) with our truth, moment to moment - NOT about getting rid of it and that is the mistake I made in the past. There are different paths. Different ways. Did he not also teach 'truth is a pathless land?'

Paul - you are defining soul as 'an authority'. Did you get this from K? For me the soul is YOU. It is in you and part of you. It is not what you read about the soul, or K's disparaging remarks about such things. It is not something you 'follow'. It is YOU. I do NOT disagree with anything you have said. This is all very well observed and serves you well. However, it does not mean that Mr Thought is 'bad' (which is insinuated in K's teaching and also by your words that the ego is 'the big boss' etc.). Don't get me wrong - there IS 'bad' thought and there is 'good' thought. There is an unaligned ego (that creates havoc) and an aligned ego (that helps to create peace within ourselves). There is silence and times of 'no thought'- but the 'me' is part of who we are. Thought is creation and if it is in line with your truth then Mr Thought has a role to play in our lives. K taught to look at the 'role of thought' not to get rid of it, yet much of his teaching suggests we can be rid of it and many do make that mistake when coming to the teachings of K, Jesus, Buddha and other great teachers.

On masters etc....If the Divine exists to help guide us to our true paths and to love, then how can we ignore it. How can we not listen to our spiritual guides, masters, whatever you want to call them (let's just call it the 'Divine'), if they are there to help you. They are NOT an authority - this is why we call them 'guides'. Guides to help us become whole, fully functioning human beings. We still have to make the decisions and be responsible for our lives. This was K's primary objective: to guide us to become fully functioning human beings. He was a 'guide' in human form. He used 'spiritual guides' in his own life - he just didn't like to talk about it publicly. All I am saying is that I have come to learn - from my OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE - that so much of what K said NOT to focus on (soul, divine, spirit, religion etc.) has MUCH relevance. You can ONLY know this for yourself. Not from a book, not from me, not from K.

Bottom line: Are you trying to get rid of the ego? The me? Because of K? How do you see these 'entities'? Be honest.

Peace

In answer to the original question of this thread: No, K did not mislead anyone.

But the self will not thank K for what he pointed towards in the teaching, nor will it desire to go there.

In fact the self will do anything to avoid it: re-interpret it - blame the man and ignore the teaching - claim to be 'mislead'. What else can it do?

Just as i eat what suits me best,wear clothes that suits ME best and in every aspect of life i choose by experimentation what is comfortable and suitable, similarly I SHOULD DEVELOP 'MY OWN 'ATITUDE,PHILOSOPY,RELIGION WHICH SUITS MY MENTAL BEING rather than playing and eating and then crying after indigestion other people's philosophy

Boils down to
1)CONTROL OVER MIND
2)NO NEGATIVE THINKING
AS SIMPLE AS THIS
Siddarath

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
But the self will not thank K for what he pointed towards in the teaching, nor will it desire to go there.

In fact the self will do anything to avoid it: re-interpret it - blame the man and ignore the teaching - claim to be 'mislead'. What else can it do?

In fact who is saying this? Something other than self or self itself?

Don't need K or any, do yourself

Michael Gorof wrote:
Paul - you are defining soul as 'an authority'. Did you get this from K?

No Michael, I have not come across Mr Soul in my life and so I have no basis to define him at all. What K did was to define a process of imagination called 'belief' in which we act as if something exists, not on actual knowledge but on imagination. This, he says, we do in the search for security. K neither said that souls exist or do not exist. He questioned belief, not the soul.

In the same way he never denied the Masters, God, enlightenment, experience, thought, emotion, heaven, or any of the innumerable 'denials' people think they have heard from him. He denied only one thing, belief. In the search for security we create beliefs, which become our authority and which we follow amid the confusion of mind. 'Soul' is one such belief which becomes authority.

Michael Gorof wrote:
K's disparaging remarks about such things.

You need to read K again, Michael, or even read Aryel Sanat again, for the whole point of his book is to alert us to the fact that K never denied these things but condemned belief. In fact during his life K talked often about these things, the actualities, not the imagined entities.

Michael Gorof wrote:
Thought is 'bad' (which is insinuated in K's teaching and also by your words that the ego is 'the big boss' etc.).

K said that we do not think, thought thinks us. If there was a unique and integrated individual, that individual would be capable of real thought, the creative thinking that only a mind that is whole can undertake. What we call thoinking, in our present state, is merely the chewing over memory in the hope of gaining some nutrition from that dead stuff. K, on the contrary, pointed us towards life. It is not a question of 'bad thoughts' and 'good thoughts', Michael, but of our central attitude towards life, attitude which is an actuality and not a thought. Either we are in the present or we are locked up in the past.

Michael Gorof wrote:
Thought is creation and if it is in line with your truth then Mr Thought has a role to play in our lives.

Thought is creation only when it is part of a whole process of mind and not a separated function, driven by sensation and dominating emotion. Then it MAY be creative IF it is pointed towards life and not dwelling in the past. These are fundamental questions of life and death, not metaphysical constructs and should be treated with the utmost concreteness. Thought can be creative only when it is part of the harmonious process of mind (which we do not have) and pointed towards life (which it is not). This is precisely why we need transformation, metanoia, revolution etc. To say that we have these things now, already, is the illusion of which he spoke. To imagine that our thought can be creative if it is in touch with our 'higher being' (whatever word you use) is the false - that god is within us. K stated time and again that God cannot dwell in an unclean vessel.

Michael Gorof wrote:
He used 'spiritual guides' in his own life - he just didn't like to talk about it publicly.

This, MIchael is utterly incorrect. And you really need to read Sanat again. K never used spiritual guides, as Sanat made clear, they used him. All the time he stressed that. Read Endiong of Time where he says categorically that 'the ground' is using him. Do you think you can 'use' God?

What we 'use' is our imagination, and the products thereof. If we get rid of that one practice there might be some use for us in this universe. But it is not for us to decide.

Michael Gorof wrote:
my OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE

Question that experience, Michael. It seems clear to me that you have reached questionable conclusions from it and you have not reached the position of freedom you think you have. That is not an opinion, but you will take it as such because you have decided on your path and are tenaciously sticking to it. Good luck to you, my friend.

What are you waiting for?

It is just the fact acting because the self has stood out of the way. It will you know, if permitted.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Sun, 14 Nov 2010.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
It is just the fact acting because the self has stood out of the way. It will you know, if permitted.

I see, thank you for reply.:)

Don't need K or any, do yourself

Patricia - I appreciate your clarity around 'the fact acting' and 'self stepping aside' etc. You have reminded me of what K used to say there and I will look at this again. But I still maintain that it is very important not to fall into the trap that most do (and I have done) of trying to 'get rid' of the self. What is this self anyway? You can go quiet and not do anything for a while, but then you have to move again and the self is always there ready and waiting.

Paul - I appreciate your long detailed response.

I totally agree with you about belief and thanks for clarifying that – but belief, for me, is a much more superficial level than the experience I have been talking about. EXAMPLE OF BELIEF: reading the bible and saying “I will follow that as it makes me feel reassured – if I keep going then the Lord will save me” etc. (By the way I am NOT knocking the bible here - just talking about belief). I also agree with you that for thought to be truly creative it needs to be part of the whole process. Also like your comment that ‘thought thinks us’ rather than the other way round and I will look at this again.

However, I need to clarify some points – and I am going to be frank with you and as honest as I can. I am not coming from belief when I make the comments I have made – it is from 100% conviction and trust. Unbreakable conviction and trust. Not ‘blind trust’ or ‘conclusion’, but good old fashioned, ongoing, moment-to-moment TRUST. Possibly the greatest power the human being possesses in its quest to unite with the Divine and be whole. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else. I have no need to convince. As ever, sharing words can be fraught with difficulties. I am simply sharing my story and my messages of working with K and subsequent spiritual experiences. I am also learning much as I do this.

I find the rest of your comments on me ‘needing to read K again’ a little difficult to take. Firstly, I am being brutally honest that my ego is responding a little here and feels a bit aggrieved that you have said this given the fact I have read almost everything on K over many years. In fact, as I insinuated in my first post – I had taken the teachings as far as I could (the rest of the things that happened to me – as I said initially – came uninvited, no will, no effort, many years after putting down K’s books). I have NO intention of reading K again. My reading of K is done. My work with life is NOT done and will never be done until the day I die.

All I can speak from is MY RELATIONSHIP with K and the teachings. If that does not fit in with your view of what he said, then so be it. All the stuff I said about K’s ‘disparaging’ remarks about ego, soul, religion, masters I believe to be correct after reading his own words over many years. This is how I (mis)understood them - as do many. Perhaps you have been one of the lucky ones who have not viewed K in this way.

The whole premise of Sanat’s book was that most people who have come to K had believed K was indeed ‘against’ such things, or was trying to stop us ‘wasting time’ on such things. Sanat then went on to debunk this and show with expert research, how K had a very rich esoteric inner life. For you to then start picking on my words that K did not ‘use’ spiritual guides, but they used him, is accurate, but at the same time disingenuous. I accept I wasn’t clear or accurate enough on this point, but surely you know what I was getting at. I get your point that K was indeed a vessel for the Divine, but your words, I’m afraid, reek of pomposity. Indeed, one of the main reasons I left Kinfonet many years ago was due to the K-like pomposity of the contributors – and let me tell you Paul, I was one of them! Yet again, more responses that just seem determined to ‘debunk’ virtually anything anyone says – in true K-like fashion.

I really hope I have not just misdunerstood your words, I'm sure you were just being honest yourself, but can only give you my honest response to them. I am NOT trying to make out I am better than you or know more than you. I have not come on here to tell anyone what they ‘should’ or ‘should not’ do – simply to share my experiences with K and since having last been on Kinfonet. I genuinely apologise if any of my own words did sound pompous. It was not my intention. Just to connect with like-minded souls and share experiences. There is undoubtedly some 'ego' involved in these exchanges, but again, I am not necessarily knocking this as one has to communicate and be as true to one's self as possible and if it involves some ego response then so be it. Or should we call it HUMAN response?

Just a few other points you made:

“To imagine that our thought can be creative if it is in touch with our 'higher being' (whatever word you use) is the false - that god is within us. K stated time and again that God cannot dwell in an unclean vessel.” – I agree – but don’t see what this has to do with what I have been saying.

“position of freedom you think you have” – I have not claimed to be in any ‘position of freedom’ – simply shared my experiences which DID involve a transformation (and I won’t be going into that in more detail here – that is for another place and time). I DO have freedom from K’s teachings in that I can use them at times where they seem relevant (and they do many times seem relevant), but am no longer ‘tied’ to K in that cultish, religious type sense that many people who come to K eventually fall into (as I did, and still on occasion do).

“What we 'use' is our imagination, and the products thereof. If we get rid of that one practice there might be some use for us in this universe. But it is not for us to decide.” – Utter bunkum! The imagination is a very powerful and important medium through which we can communicate with the Divine. Yes the Divine has plans for us and works through us but we also work with it. We are human beings working on the earth plane. I have heard this before that we don’t have a say in it etc. Yes, there are experiences that are God-driven and my own experiences are testimony to that. But to say ‘it is not for us to decide’ is far too much a sweeping statement and would be to take away our responsibility for life.

“That is not an opinion, but you will take it as such because you have decided on your path and are tenaciously sticking to it.” – Very presumptious statement – who said I had ‘decided’ on my path? My path is just my path and yours is yours. Each is unique and ongoing. That is all I was trying to say.

Finally, I question my experience all the time. This does not mean to say I doubt my conviction. My main point when I came on here was to state that, after working for many years with the teachings and subsequent (uninvited) spiritual experiences, I can state there is more to it than K’s teachings. He has his place, but is not the only teacher and there is a danger of getting too ‘cultish’ about him and what he had to say.

Hopefully, I have made a small contribution to this.

Blessings

This post was last updated by Michael Gorof Mon, 15 Nov 2010.

Michael Gorof wrote:
YOU CANNOT GET RID OF THE EGO - THE ME. K may not have said it directly, but he insinuated this was possible throughout his teaching. . . . The 'ego' is NOT something to be despised, ridiculed, obliterated - it is a 'tool' (as K says himself) and an important human function that needs to be brought in line with the SOUL'S JOURNEY AND PURPOSE. When it is aligned with your soul and whole being then the 'big problems' cease and you are living your truth. And yes, the SOUL DOES EXIST. Don't let K dissuade you. Spirituality DOES exist. The masters and spiritual guides DO exist. The Divine DOES exist. K may have resisted all this publicly, but anyone who has researched his life know all about the 'process' and his esoteric inner life (see Aryel Sanat's book - the best book on K in my humble opinion - you may have read it).

Despite what you say about my pompoosity, Michael, I still see in the above a series of incorrect statements and some beliefs.

Wrong statements include that 'K insinuated you can get rid of the ego.' Rather, he said there is nothing you can do to get rid of the ego (Gurdjieff said the same - man cannot do) but that by seeing the false (and seeing has a special meaning here) it falls away. This sort of reasoning confuses many people. He sees to be stating something and then denying it. For me, I discern the difference.

K never advised that one despises, ridicules or obliterates the ego.

K never said the ego was a a tool, in the sense of an important human function (ie - healthy). He said it was a crafted illusion. He said that thought was a tool and an important human function, one that we have not learned to use in a way suitable to our being.

You state that SOUL DOES EXIST etc. Spiritual guides and masters etc. and in that context you emphasise your reading of Sanat. But Sanat never said these things exist. His purpose was to point out that K said they existed and that the evidence suggests that he was correct. Sanat says strongly that we cannot talk of their existance or non-existance unless and until we KNOW, which means to be one with That, which you and I, Michael, are not.

K did not entertain belief.

The stuff about 'soul's journey and purpose', I don't know where you have got that from but I am aware of the mass of New Age writings on the subject. I have read some of them such as Thomas Moore's Care Of The Soul, and it is mostly fantasy.

To say that one has a specific entity called a soul and that it has an individual purpose of which we are not aware and that it reincarnates many times in order to reach completion of its purpose, this is the old story that has kept millions in slavery for millenia. I see no way to validate or invalidate it but I see the inherent danger in it as a system of belief.

What are you waiting for?

Michael Gorof wrote:
If I take away all thought and knowledge, then yes it is difficult for me to say 'I know of the soul'

I greatly appreciate your sincerity Michael.It is hard to find people who make sincere observations-be they accurate or inaccurate.I do not know whether this question of soul is important but I thought I will share my reasoning with you.Now is there anything permanent? For the ego to be there there must be an unchanging continuation from this moment to the next moment.Now continuation is thought but is it unchanging,permanent?It is thought which is memory that gives a sense of permanency isn't it?So it's memory that gives the sense of an unchanging ego.But what is the actual fact?Everything is in a flux-otherwise nothing can be. The same argument is applicable to soul,atman.God Allah & so on.I am not saying Michael that this is very vry clear to me.But I see this from time to time.Now our problem is thought cannot see this-because thought is material-it cannot see dynamic movement.Our problem Michael is,there is life & movement.There is action.And we construct a doer,an entity.Because our senses themslves are deceptive-we cannot see physically that everythig is in a flux.Some of the things appear as concrete objects to us.You know this point is not easy at all Michael, this is man's fundamental illusion.I am only just sharing my views with you on the issue.

However K talked about something sacred.I do not know what that is.But I think the illusion is seeing this as an entity.To whom we can appeal to, who punishes us and so on.I think perhaps a few people touched it-the sacred & others who heard the description interpreted it their own way or simply our blindness produced a creator being.

Finally if you permit me to answer a question you posed Paul-personally I am not trying to get rid of the ego.I think any such attempt would cause a serious rift,a conflict in the psychy.Who is going to try this? Will it still not be part of the ego? All what I do is looking at the nearest-that is at 'what is'.If the understanding of 'what is' ends the self then be it.But personally I am not reaching out to anything-for me that's the way of conflict & illusion.

I am not trying to teach you Michael,I may be wrong.This is just sharing my views.

Paul – with all due respect to you. Yes, K never advised that one ‘despises, obliterates’ the ego, but his words were often very judgemental and made one feel this way – made me feel this way – this is what I was trying to convey and tried to qualify in subsequent statements. He DID make many disparaging remarks about humanity (some of it justified, but not all of it). Just sharing my experiences of the teachings with others. If he did not make you feel this way then, as I said, you are definitely lucky and may do very well with K’s teachings. ‘By seeing the false, it falls away’ – he also made other statements such as (paraphrased) ‘so that fear NEVER touches the mind again’ and ‘don’t you want to know bliss, love’ etc. - suggests to me that K was ‘offering’ a permanent change in the psyche – he often talked about ‘transformation’ and a ‘mutation’ in the brain cells. U.G. also pulled up K a number of times on this (I am not the only one to question K’s words and approach) – on the one hand he talks about not being able to get rid of the ego and on the other dangles the carrot of PERMANENT ‘bliss’ and ‘freedom’ before our very eyes. All I was trying to point out was that this type of teaching can be unhelpful, particularly for people who are only at a certain stage in their life’s journey. K is not for everyone. There has definitely been a fundamental change in me but difficult for me to measure this without thought and all the difficulties that brings. To some extent I don't know.

What I have learned is that the ego is an extremely important function. If it is giving you pain then it is telling you something is not right and it is time for realignment with your soul’s journey and purpose – or at least with your life’s purpose and what you are here for. This is why when one aligns the ego with that purpose, the ego becomes quieter and part of the whole. Then perhaps it is no longer the ‘ego’ but just YOU as you are. It does not feel so separate. This is MY experience. It is not from reading a book. You keep going on about what has been written, books on the soul, New Age etc. This is NOT what I have been talking about – simply relaying my direct experience. Again may I humbly suggest to you that you are engaging in somewhat of an ‘ego battle’ here. You are picking on my words and going back to my initial posts to pick out words, possibly to try and ‘win the argument’? How can you argue with my experience. It is impossible Paul – you will not succeed. And I cannot ‘argue’ with your experience. What I have to take responsibility for is the way in which I have tried to communicate my message and I am still learning about this and trying to be as clear as I can. But as K himself said the ‘word is not the thing’. I NEVER said Sanat himself said there was the existence of masters etc. – again you are just trying to play with words – and I really do not know what point you are trying to make here. I was pointing out that such things were part of K’s life as researched by Sanat – end of. Indeed when I think back to Sanat’s work he WAS also himself making a case for the existence of such things.

All this type of ‘punch and judy’ dialogue between us just makes us feel separate from each other and in competition.

I will take on board your point that I have beliefs. I'm sure I do. But I also have a knowing. This is where I am at on this stage of my journey.

I will also look into your comment that we cannot talk of masters etc. until we ‘know’. But I have to tell you that I know of such things. I work with my guides, and masters such as Jesus, on a daily basis. I appreciate this is like creating blasphemy on a K website (or most philosophical/spiritual discourse ?) and you will want to come back and debunk this. I respect your position on this Paul, but think you will need to also respect mine. I also say these things with the upmost humility. Because of what I have been through I am eternally humble and grateful to life.

This post was last updated by Michael Gorof Mon, 15 Nov 2010.

Kapila - many thanks for your clear response. You have certainly made me look at this again. And I am always open to learning so don't feel you are trying to 'teach' me. We are just sharing with each other.

It is so difficult to put into words our experience. The best thing I can say to you is that I am no longer coming from the perspective of 'thought trying to be permanent' and trying to hang onto memory etc. This is not to say that I do not fall back into certain patterns from time to time, but my life seems to have gone onto a different level now. Because of my experiences during my healing process, I am left with an unshattering faith in the Divine. I work with the Divine on a daily basis. I also work with my ego. I am just no longer so stuck in this groove of having to watch every thought to 'try and be free'. During my 'spiritual experience' I experienced that thing called the 'sacred' (thank you for using that word as it helped to remind me of that). This immense connection (which is indescribable and so silent) has got a little less as time has gone on as it is now a case of me having to move forward in this world (i.e. one cannot be in the cave all the time - one has to return to the 'marketplace' - as the Buddhists, I think, have put it before). This is the first time I have begun to start sharing my messages on a wider platform other than with my family and friends. I suppose at this stage my main thing to say is The Divine exists and is there to help you and guide you if you open to it and trust it. Other than that I don't know! :)

This post was last updated by Michael Gorof Mon, 15 Nov 2010.

Michael,

I thought I will share with you the nature of my inquiry. If I am asked is there a soul or not then if I see instantly I say what I see. If I don't have a clear answer I don't grope or search for an answer because then I am groping, searching & producing something according to my background which is really my conditioning, which is not clarity.So once I am not clear of something I stay fully with that unclear state without searching for an answer at all,like a cow in the open fields getting burnt in the sun & getting drenched in the rains & not doing anything about it.I just stay with it resolved to be with it eternally.I do not grope forward at all because that is for me what produces illusion.If there is fear that I cannot understand this, that I am stupid & so on I then stay with that fear fully.Whenever it recurs I stay with it.Now this way I am out of illusion.However this does not mean there will not be clarity but to think about clarity beforehand will be hope & therefore moving away which is desire which can produce illusion.

I decided to share this with you because you talk about masters, divinity etc.I am not saying there are masters or there are not.But this is very very dangerous ground to tread.We may be easily led up the garden path.You yourself said that we have to do this ourselves.There is no such thing as anybody else sorting out our inner suffering.

So once we are clear of this way of inquiry, that is, staying with 'what is' & so on we don't need any master or divinity because this observation of 'what is'-that is observation of our present condition whatever it may be without moving forward in any manner,staying with it & so on can heal any psychological wound. Then we don't need any master, then we are our own master.

This is the way I tackle things Michael.

Kapila

Thanks SO much for sharing your processes so clearly. It is beautiful to read and obvious you have gone into this with great care, step by step - as K suggested. I fully appreciate what you are saying. I think your words below unite us:

"You yourself said that we have to do this ourselves.There is no such thing as anybody else sorting out our inner suffering."

This is indeed where I stand.

Can I just clarify what I feel is the difference here in terms of what I am trying to point out. There is a difference between 'our conditioning/thoughts of the divine' (as you have rightly pointed out) and 'the actual divine' (i.e. the objective signs and guidance that the divine offers and how this can be harnessed in our journeys toward healing and wholeness). You can only know this for yourself and when it happens to you, you will know it and see the difference between the 'actual' divine and 'your conditioning' of what the divine is (thought etc.).

All I can share with you is what I have experienced. When I was experiencing my 'inner suffering', it was of such magnitude that no amount of observation of 'what is' could resolve it. Such observation had worked in the past, but not this time. This was a whole different ball game. This was life or death. Please remember this was just my journey. Everyone has their own journey and should feel TOTALLY TRUSTING of their own journey and what they choose to do. Not everyone will suffer from a severe mental illness (and please also remember I am not 'competing' with anyone, just sharing my story as you have done). I was in such pain that I HAD to act in a way that I had never done before. For me, and again only speaking for myself, this came in the way of working with the Divine and spiritual guides.

They came to me through a shamanic reading that I had. I know that some will debunk this, but this is what happened to me. Once I opened to this and looked for the signs and synchronicity in my life, it really started to come to me uninvited. The universe just kept sending me signs all day, everyday. These were not imagined or 'coincidence'. They were irrefutable. I cannot really put this into words. I then had to work with these signs and remain committed. I had to work harder than I ever dreamed and dig deep inside myself, deeper than I ever felt was possible. I found a power I never knew existed. It was the ONLY way I was going to get better. This is what got me better. The ego had literally gone 'insane' and I had no other choice but to eventually give in and allow for Divine intervention. The whole of the 'me' - everything I held to be part of my identity - was shattered and I had to be 'rebuilt' from the ground up (again words are difficult here). I had to trust and listen to the messages that were being brought to me. It would be wrong of me not to be honest about all this.

You see this is the essential point for me: This is NOT about parlour tricks. showing off, psychic tricks, or being 'clever' by claiming one knows of the 'masters' etc. - in fact I don't really like that word as it has too many connotations - I prefer divine or universe. Indeed I'm still not sure what to call 'it'. But there is indeed an 'other' world, that is interwoven into the fabric of this 'visible' world. You are TOTALLY correct to say you do not want to be led up the garden path and conned by your own conditioning. But what I refer to is not about our conditioning - you can see that conditioning when it comes - thought/memory. This is about objective evidence from the Divine - a very different thing altogether. Once you experience this for yourself, nobody can EVER make you doubt that again. This can be used to bring about the greatest healing of all. Becoming one with the Divine and all that is.

The universe provides support and guidance (rather than 'authority'). It is up to us whether we take heed of that guidance. I still have to do the same amount of work that you or anyone else has to do in terms of living life, enjoying life, being watchful of our thoughts, our ego reactions, our relationship with others. The difference for me now (compared to where I was before) is that in order to do this work I am guided by the Divine (the 'sacred', God' - ahhh, I really don't know what to call it other than the 'other world' that is invisible) and trust that guidance. It is not imagined.

I feel that anybody can do this and open up to the Divine, the universe, for guidance, for support. It may be that we are all at different stages in our journey and some are not yet ready to be trusting of the divine in this way. It is important we are kind and gentle to ourselves regarding this. The signs are brought to us all the time, it is just whether we choose to notice them or not. It is real and based on trust. It is what created you. It is so beautiful and amazing. It is about working WITH IT and ONLY asking for love to show you the way. Not something to be feared.

But I do not want in any way to 'push' anything onto others. As I said, this is really early days for me sharing my message of what I have discovered. As I said, it is vital we are kind to, and have mercy on, ourselves. Not feeling 'stupid', or that we are 'missing' something, because someone else has shared a different experience to our own. Not trying to compete with each other but learning from each other. All I want to say is that there is good news. Really good news. And real hope for humanity in the work we are all doing.

Peace
M

Michael,

Taking away the word divine to mean an All Mighty Creator God who punishes & rewards us-I don't accept that- I am not refuting what you are saying.I am only saying that this can be very dangerous unless we are very careful because it's very easy to delude ourselves with this type of thing.I am not saying you have deluded yourself-I do not know frankly.

Michael Gorof wrote:
other world' that is invisible)

Our range of vision of the physical eye is limited.Senses are limited.So there is nothing to say that different life forms cannot exist on different energy levels.

Kapila

Agreed.

I am not talking of 'reward and punishment' or an 'authority'. It is much more holistic than that.

The possibility for delusion comes when thought/conditioning arises around subjects such as 'divine', 'god', 'other' and when you try to analyse such things (e.g. When thought asks: Is it real? Is he telling the truth? Is he deluded? I don't want to be deluded? What does this divine feel like? etc. etc.)

BUT when YOU are directly linked into that 'other', which may simply take a leap of faith to do so, then this is a whole different thing. Thought may still be involved but this 'other' is not OF THOUGHT. That is the essential difference as far as I can express it. So being careful is indeed very, very important. But this does not mean you cannot open up to the reality of this 'other'. This 'other' may come to you in many different ways. If you have a preconceived notion of what it is (e.g. a feeling of 'bliss'), and are waiting for some result, then the possibility of delusion arises. But if you let go of 'the head' (even for just a few moments a day) and trust your heart and open to love - then the signs of the universe will come. They will come to you in a way that you understand. You will know the difference.

K's teaching has given us the tools to be able to see our conditioning/thought. But his teaching can be misinterpreted to think that we should therefore DOUBT everything, including the very universe/divine itself. You cannot doubt the divine. Thought can doubt it (with its small brain) which just leads into endless circles - but having a direct connection with that divine is totally different. Once you get it, nobody can EVER take that faith away from you. The conviction and faith is eternal. This does not mean that there are no challenges in life or need to be continually working on ourselves, but the difference is you now have this connection. There is no other feeling like it than to have such support and guidance as we make our way through this challenging and beautiful world.

You mentioned 'other life forms'. Again it is important to be careful and clear about what we are talking about here. I am talking about the highest power only. Of love. Of good. Of wholeness. Nothing else.

You will know the difference. Trust that and trust yourself to know. But don't rely on anyone else's words or descriptions. Whatever steps you take, should feel right to you. Be gentle and kind with yourself. Nobody, or no thing, should ever make you act against what feels right to you. Then you cannot go wrong.

Good luck on your journey
M

This post was last updated by Michael Gorof Thu, 18 Nov 2010.

Michael, You have asked whether K has mislead us. I do not think so. True he never made any mention about soul (though I believe there's a soul in us), but what's the point? My feeling is that even if K had said that there's a soul, that there's divinity, we would have carried on with our problems of fear, suffering, anger etc. Do you think his affirmation would have made any difference to human consciousness? Absolutely not. The issue is so big, so immense that we should feel happy K gave no assurances. Having said this I greatly admire you for your honesty and clarity. Your is a great journey. I am glad I have crossed your path.

By the way, you write so well. I can't imagine myself writing so. What's the secret of it? This is my ego asking the question. As you have said it has a place and I don't deny that. I hope all of us accept the ego and not wish it away. There's no need to destroy the ego, but be watchful of the one who denounces it and says it's unspiritual. This high moral stance won't take us anywhere and at the end of our lives we will only be left with ashes, not the fragrant flower.

Long live the ego with humility, long live the Soul with dignity.

My deep respects to K.

Thanks Michael.

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J