We deceive ourselves that we are free of thought and somehow different from the rest of the human race because we are well versed in K's teachings. How long will this deception go on?? K, himself, was just a flicker. His teachings don't pay the bills. Reality has a harsh, loud, knock at our doors. When will we wake up?

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
We deceive ourselves that we are free of thought and somehow different from the rest of the human race because we are well versed in K's teachings. How long will this deception go on?? K, himself, was just a flicker. His teachings don't pay the bills. Reality has a harsh, loud, knock at our doors. When will we wake up?

Krishnamurtians don't claim to be "free of thought", and the only way they claim to be "different from the rest of the human race" is that they identify with K, quote K, and like to gather with other Krishnamurtians.

Nick is the big expert on "Krishnamurtians". He has lots of opinions about them. That's what makes him the expert.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Mon, 06 Dec 2010.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Nick is the big expert on "Krishnamurtians". He has lots of opinions about them. That's what makes him the expert.

Patricia is a top-notch, state-of-the-art, full-fledged, certified, qualified, confirmed, Krishnamurtian, and as such, her views on all things Krishnamurti are the final word on the subject. I am merely an observer.

As already pointed out - Lots of opinions about everything - and everyone.

Just the facts, ma'am.

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
His teachings don't pay the bills.

Well, is this not because we are divided? And his teaching is all about ending division!

Do you never doubt your own opinions?

Nick, Patricia and Kapila,
It is nice to gather together with others who explore K's teachings. I suppose that's why we drop by this forum. The teachings "unify" our divided lot. I certainly question my opinions and find I'm more content having none. The bills are still there, divided or not, and the teachings are an escape from that mundane reality, briefly. Define me as you will.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

Speaking of bills, Ruth, I had a conversation earlier today with a man who, after taking LSD, became aware of his "karmic debt". That is, he realized after years of unexamined behavior, how much he had violated his own sense of, if not "good", at least, innocuous, behavior. This realization moved him to change his ways and do (what seemed to him) the right thing, henceforth.

Do you think there's any validity to this kind of thinking? Can one become aware of having behaved in such a way as to have accrued karmic debt?

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
The bills are still there, divided or not, and the teachings are an escape from that mundane reality

Ruth,

Bills are there because we are divided-undivided we are not for bills to get affected! And are the teachings an escape from mundane realities or is mundane reality an escape from the teachings?

Nick, LSD brings about new perceptions and sensations which "appear" to be the absolute truth to the individual. There are consistencies of these perceptions with ancient philosophical thought. LSD has been used therapeutically to change behavior. The thought of "karmic debt" is consistent with some religous teachings. The individual may choose to act upon these new perceptions and change behavior, but proselytising those perceptions and new behaviors may isolate the indivdual from peers, even start a new dogma.

Kapila, I like paradoxes and koans because they pry loose cemented thought. My perceptions are 98% mundane, I rarely enjoy the journey "outside the box". K's teaching were that ladder outside the prison cell, but everytime I returned the rountines remained. I love the teachings because of the freedom they bring, making the palpable mundane more comfortable, bills and all.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

The human consciousness (the self) IS total disorder.

The belief that a part of human consciousness is 'good', and will eventually put the rest of it in order, is a myth. That belief is also what prevents any deep understanding of the teaching of K.

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
And are the teachings an escape from mundane realities or is mundane reality an escape from the teachings?

well said!!

nick carter wrote:
Just the facts, ma'am.

we observe with you.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Try observing the self reacting strongly to something said - and why.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
The human consciousness (the self) IS total disorder.
The belief that a part of human consciousness is 'good', and will eventually put the rest of it in order, is a myth. That belief is also what prevents any deep understanding of the teaching of K.

Is this is a reply to a comment or just a statement unrelated to anything in this thread?

For Patricia to know that "the self is total disorder", she, the knower, can't be part of that disorder. Thus, the statement implies that Patricia Hemingway is a most extraordinary human gazing from her orderliness upon the disorderliness of humanity.

I don't presume to know whether any "part of human consciousness is good" or not, but if it is total disorder, anything Patricia or I have to say about it is meaningless.

nick carter wrote:
Thus, the statement implies that Patricia Hemingway is a most extraordinary human gazing from her orderliness upon the disorderliness of humanity.

Your conclusion, not mine. I simply stated a fact, but you chose to concentrate on who said it, rather than what is said.

nick carter wrote:
but if it is total disorder, anything Patricia or I have to say about it is meaningless.

One can simply allow the fact of it to act.

nick carter wrote:
Thus, the statement implies that Patricia Hemingway is a most extraordinary human gazing from her orderliness upon the disorderliness of humanity.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:Your conclusion, not mine. I simply stated a fact, but you chose to concentrate on who said it, rather than what is said.

No, Patricia, the issue is not who said what, but what was said. For anyone to say that human consciousness is total disorder implies that the one saying it is not part of that disorder; is not "human" as we know it.

And once again you are drawing a conclusion about who said it, rather than simply hearing the depth of what it means.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Fri, 10 Dec 2010.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
And once again you are drawing a conclusion about who said it, rather than simply hearing the depth of what it means.

Once again you speak falsely.

Is all this bickering, Nick-picking, and badgering also a part of the self-deception? What's wrong with smiling and making nice?

Arthur Landon wrote:
Is all this bickering, Nick-picking, and badgering also a part of the self-deception? What's wrong with smiling and making nice?

Be specific, Arthur. Provide an example of "bickering, Nick-picking, and badgering" and we can discuss it. This is a discussion forum, after all, and presumably one comes here to discuss rather than for "smiling and making nice".

This post was last updated by nick carter Fri, 10 Dec 2010.

nick carter wrote:
Once again you speak falsely.

Disordered consciousness, not seen, but desperately defending itself, can only reply in that manner.

The self can do nothing else but attack the image it has invented of the messenger - anything rather than find out the truth (or not) of what is said. So thanks for demonstrating clearly the disorder of human consciousness Nick.

Patricia, you're really quite silly. If human consciousness is "total disorder" and you're human, anything you have to say about it is disordered. You may as well say we're all crazy, in which case everything you or anyone says is just ranting and raving.

Again with the personal attack. Seems that is all the self can do when confronted with a fact it does not like. Anything but look at the fact.

Ruth Marie Bass wrote:
We deceive ourselves that we are free of thought and somehow different from the rest of the human race because we are well versed in K's teachings. How long will this deception go on??

nick carter wrote:
If human consciousness is "total disorder" and you're human, anything you have to say about it is disordered.

Not necessarily. One can see the truth in the false. Only taking that statement out and putting in to analysis is disordered. gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Again with the personal attack. Seems that is all the self can do when confronted with a fact it does not like. Anything but look at the fact.

You shouldn't take it personally when someone tries to show you the logical fallacy in what you're saying. Put your pride aside for a moment and see how, if "consciousness is total disorder", everything you say is meaningless and it's pointless to have this discussion forum. Total disorder can produce nothing but nonsense. Nothing it says has any meaning at all.

This post was last updated by nick carter Sat, 11 Dec 2010.

nick carter wrote:
You shouldn't take it personally when someone tries to show you the logical fallacy in what you're saying. Put your pride aside for a moment and see how, if "consciousness is total disorder", everything you say is meaningless and it's pointless to have this discussion forum. Total disorder can produce nothing but nonsense. Nothing it says has any meaning at all.

Nothing is taken personally Nick. The personal nature of your attacks is pointed out, nothing more. No pride is hurt.

The fact that all human consciousness is disorder will act powerfully if it is seen. The pity is that one cannot just stay with the fact of it. And why? Because the self is so intent on changing - 'becoming' something better. 'Becoming' is not at the core of the teaching of K. And hanging on to the self 'becoming' is why the teaching is not understood. As witnessed here and elsewhere with all the 'self' protestations.

And let's face it - apart from egos strutting their stuff, it is pointless to have this - or any other - discussion forum. It is all just mindless entertainment, and K would have abhorred it.

The forum is generally just another nutshell example of the fact of total disorder of the human consciousness - in action, and in writing.

"Thought itself must deny itself. Thought itself sees what it is doing - right? - and therefore thought itself realizes that it has to come of itself to an end. There is no other factor than itself. Therefore when thought realizes that whatever it does, any movement that it makes, is disorder (we are taking that as an example), then there is silence. The nature of the change from disorder, is silence."

... from You are the World | 2nd Public Talk, 1969 at Stanford University

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."