Forth Step of Transformation.

In the Third step of transformation, one comes to the concentration, where one's
Awareness is fixed on one point, at the meditative abject, that is breathing.
Here, this awareness on one point of fixation is known as One Pointedness. Since, there are not any thoughts, there is no emotions and moods. This generate a feeling of freedom, having a control over mind (up to now one was controlled by the mind), therefore a happiness and joy arises.

Now the meditator has

1. one pointedness (concentrated awareness)




2. Happiness.




3. Joy.

At this stage, the breathing is very rhythmic and slow, because body does not require much oxygen, as it is at a deeper rest. Body sensation is very minimal and one would feel that the body is firm, light and weightless.

Heartbeat is very slow and rhythmic.

Here meditator would find, that his mind is now attached to the Happiness and Joy.

He must make a suggestion to his mind to abandon this Happiness and Joy.

It is important to note, that when one makes a suggestions to the mind, one should not expect any result, after making the suggestion five or seven times as one feels. He must forget the suggestion and continue with his meditation and the suggested outcome will come automatically. If one waits with an expectation, then it will not materialize.

When the Happiness and Joy is dropped as suggested to the mind, one comes to the Highest Concentration or 'Samadi'.

Here, His mind is concentrated on one point towards the breathing, but breathing get suspended as the body has gone to the maximum relaxation, and its need of Oxygen is at very minimum level. Normal dispersion of the air can supply the body with the required amount of Oxygen.

Since, body is at maximum relaxation, body sensation is totally absent.

Therefore, for the first time he will feel "Where is I?"

This happens because we attribute the I to the body sensation.

There is one pointed awareness but nothing to be aware as breathing is suspended.

Hence, Observation without observed, would take place, in the mind.

In the mind only the awareness is there, in a pointed way, nothing else. Therefore, for the first time he will attribute the Awareness to be I, instead of body sensation (or touch sensation).

After getting hold of this 'Highest Samadi' by practicing it more and more, the meditator then can decide, before starting the meditation, that he will make a suggestion to his mind, after coming to this Highest Samadi, and remaining in the Samadi for about two hours, for instance, that thoughts would arise in his mind, while in the 'Samadi', enabling him to make a suggestion.

Hence as he wished, after being in the 'Samadi' exactly two hours, thoughts would arise reminding him of the suggestion. Then he would suggest to his mind, "let there be no awareness". Since, this is the last attribute of the mind remaining, and with the suggestion, Awareness would be dropped, and he would experience Emptiness. Immediately he would fall back from the Emptiness to cognize the experience.

While being in the Emptiness it cannot be cognized, since the Awareness is absent, as we usually do with the other attributes of mind. Because, if the awareness is absent, then only it is Emptiness.

Hence, at the Emptiness there is No 'I'

Understanding that "I" is an Illusion is the Forth step of Transformation.

Entering the Basic Meditation (1st Dhyana) is a perfect impossibility, if not ready to abandon, Anger,Desire and Ego. The young boy/girl uncorrupted in mind/body can come to 1st Dhayana in 15 minutes, the first day.

This post was last updated by Yogi Anurada (account deleted) Sat, 11 Jun 2011.

1, 2, 3, 4. I like to count the steps. It is so scientific. This procedure. If only people would just follow the steps.

Why do people not listen? I am perfectly happy to answer their questions, or to talk over them and not listen myself.

The ancient yogic way is such a treasure. Yet people resist. Why?

It couldn't be that I am stuck in procedure. It couldn't be that I have reduced the beauty of discovery, different for each, to a clinical recipe. It couldn't be that I assume my discoveries will also be their discoveries.

They are missing so much. Here I am, generously sharing.

Yogi Anurada wrote:
Since, body is at maximum relaxation, body sensation is totally absent.

Therefore, for the first time he will feel "Where is I?"

This happens because we attribute the I to the body sensation.

There is one pointed awareness but nothing to be aware as breathing is suspended.

Hence, Observation without observed, would take place, in the mind.

In the mind only the awareness is there, in a pointed way, nothing else. Therefore, for the first time he will attribute the Awareness to be I, instead of body sensation (or touch sensation).

I think this is your experience.

But in the topic of 'Transformation- 5h Step', to my question, you said there is no point in relating one's experience, but everyone must find out for himself.

Then Why are you relating this experience?

Found the Trap!

Raj Kumar wrote:
But in the topic of 'Transformation- 5h Step', to my question, you said there is no point in relating one's experience, but everyone must find out for himself.

Then Why are you relating this experience?

Yes, this relating of experience in the Highest 'Samadi' state of 4th Dhayna, is only to motivate one to do it and experience for oneself. When I relate this experience, one cannot imagine intellectually of the experience. Or even a meditator who have come to the Second Dhayna, cannot fool himself, that he is in 4th Dhayna, because at that stage 'Breathing get suspended'.

But if I were to relate my experience of detecting some other attributes of mind, by penetrating the 'being in the preset' to see, what stimulates the inner or outside stimuli, there is a good opportunity, one to feel intellectually, that he himself detected it, and only realized the fact, when I put it.

Entering the Basic Meditation (1st Dhyana) is a perfect impossibility, if not ready to abandon, Anger,Desire and Ego. The young boy/girl uncorrupted in mind/body can come to 1st Dhayana in 15 minutes, the first day.

K said: I distrust everyone's experience - especially my own.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K said: I distrust everyone's experience - especially my own.

:)
great day.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Tue, 14 Jun 2011.

These steps and such processes have been dismissed by the brain as complete delusion...just psychological thought in all its royal spiritual regalia attempting to entrap followers and slavish brains with robotic nothingness which is not stillness, but numbness! And very dangerous propaganda it is too, typical of agendas pushed by gurus and guru fodder!

Buildings have steps, patterns have steps, instructions to reach conclusions have steps, thought has steps, but insight does not! Pure perception has no steps. Only psychological thought in all its desperation to find a conflict-free zone has steps, without seeing that for conflict to end the consciousness as we know it has to end! Or as K wryly said "The first step is the last step" - or decoded - NO STEPS!

Michael Berry wrote:
"The first step is the last step" - or decoded - NO STEPS!

hello Michael.

why then k would have bother to say : the first step is the last step ?
when as you say the reality is : no steps !
I don't get it..

If kinfonet don't get rid of trolls ,willing to destroy , I will leave very soon...K mention the need to act too.

Mohad Dib wrote:
why then k would have bother to say : the first step is the last step ? when as you say the reality is : no steps ! I don't get it..

Not to be taken literally, Dan. K was not arguing for one step, as against many. He was arguing against the idea that the self can perfect itself or negate itself in a time-bound series of differentiated movements. The issue here is time, not number. 'The first step is the last' implies that the movement is not of time, and that the end is there in the beginning. Enquiry is the beginning and the end.

If you see there is an elephant in your living room, you see it at once. You do not have to invent a method or a series of steps to see it, which is postponement in time of what should be obvious and instant.

And if you cannot see the elephant, what do you do? That's a good question.

Yogi's 'method' is to set up a series of experiments which cultivate an imaginary elephant that you will see if you follow him, step by step.

What are you waiting for?

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Tue, 14 Jun 2011.

Michael Berry wrote:
Buildings have steps,

Also elevators!

Thanks Michael, for some sanity here. Personally, if I were aiming for the top I'd take the elevator. Steps are so . . . punitive.

What are you waiting for?

Paul Davidson wrote:

Mohad Dib wrote: why then k would have bother to say : the first step is the last step ? when as you say the reality is : no steps ! I don't get it..

Not to be taken literally, Dan. K was not arguing for one step, as against many. He was arguing against the idea that the self can perfect itself or negate itself in a time-bound series of differentiated movements.

Hello paul..

I don't buy that he meant "No steps", we don't know that, is what I mean.
If k is not speaking straight, then I even won't read the quote of the day ,what would be the point if there is a need to interpret ?

I recently feel that what is called self , is not even functioning properly in its own field because its main goal when it should be a grown up self is :out of my way I am running away...I don't want this life
..so suffering, death ,sickness, insecurity , fears , delusions , anyone in my way and all the rest of it : Go away.....on the other hand please my desires, my dreams , my hopes, my sexual life, my bank account, my possessions , my never ending life :become true..

I now question the fact that self is wrongly built by mother nature ,I say : and what if we are the faulty one by misusing it too, as we do with most of our lives...??
What would create that situation ? according to me , maybe , because we hopelessly want to remain caught in childhood , protected , secured and so on. The moment childhood , under parents protection is over ,we stick to it....which prevents self to function in properly.

Self ( whatever we put behind that word) may not be so wrong .
How would we know it anyway when running away from main absolute facts of life is what we mainly do?
Without then having the clue that this is what we do...I mention here the very origin of what we are up to, somewhere in the mind. This very origin, this very first motive will be in all what we are up to ,and we may not know it at all.
well I see this for me so far, for anyone else I can't say of course, but are we so different ? I guess not.

If kinfonet don't get rid of trolls ,willing to destroy , I will leave very soon...K mention the need to act too.

Mohad Dib wrote:
If k is not speaking straight, then I even won't read the quote of the day ,what would be the point if there is a need to interpret ?

K is speaking 'straight' and here is no need to interpret, Dan. But taking each word literally is also not the thing to do. The meaning is not in the word, whether taken literally or interpreted. The truth and the meaning is inside oneself. As I said, there are no series of steps that can make you see the elephant in your living room. The illusion is that it is not there. You have to stop blanking out reality.

As for the self: Let's drop the word 'self' and say that what is illusory must be dropped and this has to be done when it is seen as illusion. When you find yourself in an illusion, stop imagining and start examining.

All we can do is to examine our behavior, our action, what we actually do, and question it, including our thoughts, emotions, urges, memories, reactions and sensations. That is the only way to test what is real and what, illusion. And in doing so we may find out what is blocking our seeing that elephant.

What are you waiting for?

Paul, you make it too analytical for me , it is not my own "way" anymore.

I have done it for years , all of it was useless...at the best , for the worse it implicated me in a net of never ending thoughts , analysing of the analysing...bringing nothing but more problems for me.
right /wrong is not my point at all , I just don't go this way in my life now.
Take care.

If kinfonet don't get rid of trolls ,willing to destroy , I will leave very soon...K mention the need to act too.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K said: I distrust everyone's experience - especially my own.

Wow,wow!!! I doubt this, that K said. Please Quote!

Found the Trap!

Raj Kumar wrote:
Wow,wow!!! I doubt this, that K said. Please Quote!

"I distrust everyone's experience - especially my own."

There Yogi, you now have it in quotation marks, at no extra cost!

What are you waiting for?

Further experimenting with the "Illusion of I".

When one comes to the 4th Dhayna (the highest Samadi), and having mastered the 'suggestibility', he can experiment with awareness, mind, ego, one pointedness, etc.

Since, body sensation (touch sensation) is totally is absent, now the 'I' is attributed to the Awareness, that is to the mind. Hence, one would feel, "Body is not I am, but mind is I am."

At this stage, if the meditator, suggest to the mind, "May the mind (i.e. Awareness) become aware of the body", immediately mind would become aware of the body. Some time it may happen, that certain part of the body is having physical pain due to long sitting. And this pain may be an unpleasant and unbearable one. But still one would be able to look at the pain from a distance, disowning it, as he has not identified it as 'mine.'

The realization one would come to here is,

"Since the pain is not owned by me, hereafter, I will be able to withstand any pain, even in the death, if there to be pain in the death."

This will eliminate the fear of death for the people who fear the death, thinking that it is very painful.

Entering the Basic Meditation (1st Dhyana) is a perfect impossibility, if not ready to abandon, Anger,Desire and Ego. The young boy/girl uncorrupted in mind/body can come to 1st Dhayana in 15 minutes, the first day.

Michael Berry wrote:
but insight does not! Pure perception has no steps.

Good point Michael, if insight has steps then it is connected to the past & as the past is everlastingly incomplete that which it produces must necessarily be incomplete-so a concept not insight.

Raj Kumar wrote:
Wow,wow!!! I doubt this, that K said. Please Quote!

K: "To be a light to oneself denies all experience. The one who is experiencing as the experiencer needs experience to exist and, however deep or superficial, the need for it becomes greater. Experience is knowledge, tradition; the experiencer divides himself to discern between the enjoyable and the painful, the comforting and the disturbing. The believer experiences according to his belief, according to his conditioning. These experiences are from the known, for recognition is essential, without it there's no experience. Every experience leaves a mark unless there's an ending to it as it arises. Every response to a challenge is an experience but when the response is from the known, challenge loses its newness and vitality; then there's conflict, disturbance and neurotic activity. The very nature of challenge is to question, to disturb, to awaken, to understand. But when that challenge is translated into the past, then the present is avoided The conviction of experience is the negation of enquiry. Intelligence is the freedom to enquire, to investigate the "me'' and the"not me'', the outer and the inner. Belief, ideologies and authority prevent insight which comes only with freedom. The desire for experience of any kind must be superficial or sensory, comforting or pleasurable, for desire, however intense, is the forerunner of thought and thought is the outer. Thought may put together the inner but it is still the outer. Thought will never find the new for it is old, it is never free. Freedom lies beyond thought. All the activity of thought is not love."

And:

"Questioner: Can we learn from experience?

Krishnamurti: Certainly not. Learning implies freedom, curiosity, inquiry. When a child learns something, he is curious about it, he wants to know, it is a free momentum, not a momentum of having acquired and of moving from that acquisition. We have innumerable experiences; we have had five thousand years of wars.
We have not learnt a thing from them except to invent more deadly machinery with which to kill each other. We have had many experiences with our friends, with our wives, with our husbands, with our nation—we have not learnt. Learning, in fact, can only take place when there is freedom from experience."

The Impossible Question, p 78

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
that K said

The exact words you quoted, especially my own, i think i have read.
gb

Experience is stagnant right.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Wed, 15 Jun 2011.

And:

"Experiencing is conditioned by experience, the past. Freedom is the emptying of the mind of experience. When the brain ceases to nourish itself through experience, memory and thought, when it dies to experiencing, then its activity is not selfcentred. It then has its nourishment from elsewhere. It is this nourishment that makes the mind religious."

Krishnamurti Notebook Part 3

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Wed, 15 Jun 2011.

And: "Experience is a bundle of memories responding to a challenge and it can respond only according to its background, and the cleverer you are at interpreting the experience the more it responds. So you have to question not only the experience of another but your own experience."

Freedom from the Known - Ch 15 - Experience-Satisfaction-Duality-Meditation.

Mohad Dib wrote:
hello Michael.

why then k would have bother to say : the first step is the last step ? when as you say the reality is : no steps ! I don't get it..

You would have to ask K why he said what he said, but he did say "The first step is the last step". As to interpretation that is another step, and as it happens "away" from the fact of what is pointed out. Thought is on the move again.

Humans don't end psychological behaviors simply because the instrument they measure with, being thought, is able to only measure in a very limited and reactive manner by assembling and dismissing parts of the whole, hoping to achieve wholeness by such a deliberate collage process. This is the step approach.

When the brain sees for itself that the whole of the consciousness assembled by thought is limited and as such can never end its conflicting behaviors...then that is the end of it! No steps!

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
there was an intense bright light at the very centre of the brain and beyond the brain at the very centre of consciousness, of one's being.

hello Patricia.....

I had once, long time ago such a moment....then K tells his experience of it.
It seems he was in this corner very often .
He should have told more of it , but probably thought it was useless to tell, is my guess.

What good does this to someone who suffers and has no clue ? Nothing, apart from maybe creating some kind of religious belief.

If we merely are all the same mind ,then from such a bliss I had , I learnt nothing about how to deal with the entire life,but I know it is there, as many people do know about that!
it was not an experience as you rightly ( its nourishment comes from elsewhere) quoted before Patricia, I so get that point too , no centre.
This is already explanation , using analytical words.
The "centre" is not affected in his structure by the immense bliss...I guess here he mentions the no path , the bliss comes not according to man's will, It has its ways.Fine.

I get up immensely discontent ,the load is too heavy...does such words going to bring something ? No...or it may act as any religion...the belief may temporary help ???

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
With that light there was present that incalculable strength and beauty beyond thought and feeling.

Yes , he found the words to say it.
Bur I am still discontent, and the all world is entirely trapped,what shall we do ?

I recently say , as a recent feeling, that the ego does not even fully works in its fields , as it is busy to run away. Escaping becomes what we do , we are not aware of it.
I ask : Do you really believe that Mother Nature is so nuts that She has created such a deficient self ,bringing war,mass killing , violence ,fear and so on ?
If the answer is yes ,then are we not stuck in the life we know ? I say yes we are.

If the answer is no, self is not that nuts , but what prevents it to work correctly in its own limited field is the fact that it is running away..

Then the all subject becomes "escaping"...
At breakfast I was asking to my friend about her feelings on the self not functioning correctly because it is mainly if not only running away from what it had seen when the all body grew adult. Does not the brain remained a child brain...caught in I want and I don't want ,which is ok for kids IF they are surrounded by intelligent adults.....The pain which is heavy when the brain sees more of life ,enough to be entirely disturb is the "Saint Grail "...for mental maturity, we refuse that as a desire to remain a child...look at all those so called elites ,don't they look like a bunch of immensely nuts kids ?

Years of explanations have not produced much , we got more clever at explaining is a fact yes.

I am not saying this is all true , I say are not we missing the vital point that we run away mentally , this creates goals...THE point is : I don't want this life because it has an end...what is versus what should be.....this is a model of getting the point. Honestly I intellectually got it for years and so what ?
would not it be as simple ?

If kinfonet don't get rid of trolls ,willing to destroy , I will leave very soon...K mention the need to act too.

Paul Davidson wrote:
Yogi's 'method' is to set up a series of experiments which cultivate an imaginary elephant that you will see if you follow him, step by step.

Yes the elephant is clear!

Mohad Dib wrote:
Self ( whatever we put behind that word) may not be so wrong .

There is only one human brain and not many - physically and psychologically. So, this brain invents the concept of other brains which each then in turn invent the concept of other selves, each discrete and personalized, and then each of these selves then invents spiritual selves to believe in and follow, and as this drives the brain mad with conflict it further invents more selves as multiple personalities and imaginary friends (as god), and then consults others selves who are experts on making the individual selves feel really good about all its accomplishments! And this is cherished as cultural identity and humans wonder what is the root of war!

Self means eternal conflict! There is no right or wrong about it as both are fragmented value judgements.

Raj Kumar wrote:
Wow,wow!!! I doubt this, that K said. Please Quote!

Doubt all you like...he did say it!

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

Raj Kumar wrote: Wow,wow!!! I doubt this, that K said. Please Quote!

K: "To be a light to oneself denies all experience. The one who is experiencing as the experiencer needs experience to exist and, however deep or superficial, the need for it becomes greater........

And then,

Michael Berry wrote:

Raj Kumar wrote: Wow,wow!!! I doubt this, that K said. Please Quote!

Doubt all you like...he did say it!

Patricia,

When I was asking questions from Kapila, he was very willing at the beginning. Then, suddenly realizing he himself put a trap around him, he evaded the direct question I put to him in the topic of "Thoughts".

Now I feel, you made the 'Quote' and walked into the trap on your own. So instead of quoting the exact place, now you are 'wriggling' as Kapila did.

Since, Michael Berry also affirms the quote, I will make comment on the Quote in the Topic "Judging K and his teaching", as it is the suitable place.

Found the Trap!

Self or ego means "me", what is wrong with "me" taking care of "me" ? I produce my food ,built my shelter ,alone or in entire friendly cooperation ,there I see nothing wrong .....yet! ... nothing wrong as such , it seems to me so far.

We have the same brain , if so we are all nuts is an obvious fact.
There is a collective work which produces , under the leadership of parasites ,which have invented money as a mean to take more of it..

What brings a man to decide that it deserves enough money for 10 000 lives ?

what happened between the self which takes care of himself properly , so works in practical vital fields , and the self of the so called elites which basically do nothing as a real work and get most of it ? This interests me.

We say it is the self , and I really question it, I say this : what if it is not what we call the self the very origin of the problem , but what if all insanity comes from the attempt to fly away from "me".
Is the entire self wrong, or is it one little program of it only ?
The part of the machine brain which says : I love you / I kill you .
My choices against yours....
What am I going to do with that ?

We have made an enemy of the self , is it such a good idea ? Let me doubt it.
If mother nature created such a deficient collective brain ,then there is one thing to do : wait for a miracle.....and keep the fight , keep giving value to any kids on earth , pushing them to live one against each other....so is the need of the greedy to stay in charge...by dividing.

If there is one brain ( k saying ),which is a high possibility , how good is it to know it ? in the sense does it bring understanding of suffering ? discontentment ? have I changed? have the all world changed by knowing that ?
Don't we need a much more simple approach of all that ?
I say "I" do need more simple and direct ....

I seek out of suffering,discontentment , this is trying to force me into a corner.
K is using the word "challenge" , like the economical actual educational and economical system says too, weird is not it ?

What happens in the head of a leader who consciously send warriors to kill ?
For gaining is it not ?

5 000 years or more ,of the same program and the illusion of hope for the future remains the only option, like : tomorrow you 'll be fine ...

I question this : the self if it functions fully is it still insane ?
Our kids are 100 % under self control ( animal brain ) are they as insane as adults ? NOT at all !
as I see in my own experience that it has the ability to deeply see enough of itself to let its leadership go somehow , I even say that the self has a vital part to play, the one to open one door , I let you get which door I talk about ! but in k followers world there is no experience, no knowledge,one brain , one mind ... nothing but words..and all remains the same....

If kinfonet don't get rid of trolls ,willing to destroy , I will leave very soon...K mention the need to act too.

Mohad Dib wrote:
I question this : the self if it functions fully is it still insane ? Our kids are 100 % under self control ( animal brain ) are they as insane as adults ? NOT at all ! as I see in my own experience that it has the ability to deeply see enough of itself to let its leadership go somehow , I even say that the self has a vital part to play, the one to open one door , I let you get which door I talk about ! but in k followers world there is no experience, no knowledge,one brain , one mind ... nothing but words..and all remains the same....

-:)!

Found the Trap!